Put them on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...index=7&feature=plcp

That's funny. Some piss poor shooting for sure!

I am on my fourth decade of guiding and can assure you that this type of shooting is not at all unusual.
I had one sheep hunter who fired an entire box of ammo at one sheep without hitting it.

piss poor shooting is bad enough on sheep, goats, caribou and moose but on grizzlies and brown bears in thick cover it can make the guides life down right fascinating.

Wouldn't it help to go to the same type of system they use in S Africa, one spot of blood and you bought it? whether or not you recover it.

I have done that for the past twenty-seven years and would like to think it helps some - but hate to think what it would be like in a camp without that rule.

I wish some of those who post on other threads who berate and chastise guides for shooting would watch these films. But it might be too painful as some of them my be the shooter in the film

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I have done that for the past twenty-seven years and would like to think it helps some - but hate to think what it would be like in a camp without that rule.

That rule should always apply, but not for a total miss. Harder to see the impact on some animals though.

Use a box of ammo on one animal you should stay home and hand over your guns to the closest police..

Any police or government agency would be the LAST place I would have anyone hand over their guns.

Poor shooting is more common than anyone on this forum cares to admit.

The theory I have adopted is to not to get my clients close enough to hit the animal, but to get them so close that they can't miss. And it is not always easy. Two years ago a prominent NRA editor wrote of completely missing a standing Brown Bear, twice, at 50 yards.

seen some "great shooters" make really bad shots. hard to train for a moment you've dreamed of for decades!
I would like to see alaska adopt the blood on the ground equals a punched tag rule statewide rather than just a few select areas. it might keep more folks for taking a shot they "think" they can make, as opposed to a shot they "know" they can make.
Hows the snow looking down your way this winter Phil? i'll be down at wildman in may.

I remember going into bear camp and taking a whole lot of razing, due to where I was from. City guys can't shoot, yada, yada.

We went down to the beach and I put the first shot through a salt shaker at 100 yds, from prone unsuported. They got quiet real quick. We went back to the cabin and I threw a large pile of cash on the table and asked if any Guide would like to shoot against me, any distance, any amount of money.

Guides got real quiet. You could hear birds chirp.

The Outfitter got a kick out of it though.

Any guide, or ethical hunter for that matter, can set their own rules and stop hunting if they draw blood. I make sure every client is told and understands that at the beginning of the hunt and it seems to make all the difference in whether or not they want the guide to assist if the animal is getting away.

If I have learned anything over the years however it is that those who brag the loudest are usually the worst shots.

Anyone who needs the Guide to back them up is making a statement about their marksmanship skill.

They either need more practice, or training, or both.

True enough, but on the other hand everybody can make a bad shot. Especially on a high dollar hunt when finally face to face with the trophy they have dreamed about for years.
When you add the fact that some Alaskan, and many African animals, can easily kill you there is a reason that guides are required on some game.

A lot of the problem is that egos are too big and people don't want to take lessons and learn. It is just like guys buying expensive golf clubs every year to fix their game and all they really need is lessons. Big Ego people think they know too much to be coached.
When we used to live near Pebble Beach we would have lunches at the course and go lots of laughs watching rich guys that could not get out of the bunker at 18 and would often times just throw the ball on the green.
Shooting is the same. It takes work and lot of trigger time.

Do they take them to fire their rifles before they go hunting? On an '08 elk hunt in
Wyoming, the guides walked out to set up a target at about 200 yards, while we hunters
got acquainted. The first one to set up to shoot was a guy from Pa. When he was ready
he couldn't find the target! He didn't see any elk either.

I traveled 1400 miles for an elk hunt and told the guide my buddy and myself we wanted to shoot are rifles.

The guide told us don't have a place to shoot them. Heck we had mts all around us plenty of back stop.

We grabbed the range fider took a box out to a 100 yards and each fired a couple of rounds just to make sure.

The guides said never had any body do that before.

I killed my elk at 296 frist shot my buddy 304 frist shot. Just looked at the guide and told him heck elk are a lot bigger then P Dogs.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:


If I have learned anything over the years however it is that those who brag the loudest are usually the worst shots.

110% Correct!

Ladies and Gentlemen:

When I was 15, I missed my first Pennsylvania white tail deer at around 80 yards, five times. The next day I shot another one at 75 yards quartering downward from the left lung through the heart with one shot. Then two more, one shot each in following years.

I was plugging groundhogs with that same rifle every summer without breaking a sweat.

I missed a standing groundhog at 125 yards with a Sako L-579 that grouped five shots inside 3/4th of an inch 1.5 years ago.

Sometimes you screw up.

One thing that I've learned though, don't make that rifle too light and/or too muzzle light. That damn Sako was both. Even with a tight sling, while seated, I could not get that SOB to settle down.

The second part of the video shows the sheep hunter with a light barreled rifle, and he's pulling his shots high, just like the caribou shooter.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
True enough, but on the other hand everybody can make a bad shot. Especially on a high dollar hunt when finally face to face with the trophy they have dreamed about for years.
When you add the fact that some Alaskan, and many African animals, can easily kill you there is a reason that guides are required on some game.

Phil, good discussion, true enough. If my life was in danger, then yes I would want the Guide to shoot.

However, if I did make a bad shot, because it can happen, and the Guide had to take the animal down, then I would not want to have that animal on display in my house. I would donate the meat and tell the Guide if he could sell the cape or Antlers, we would split the funds and add that on top of his tip. Call that the penalty for making a bad shot.

Being proficient with your hunting rifle is not rocket science, try this

use quality rifle and optics properly zeroed with your choice of Premium hunting ammo.

get proper training

Practice what you learned in training, in all field positions

Competition can also have good training value.

Check your zero when you arrive in camp, to be sure your scope did not move during travel and is on at the temperature, altitude and humidity you will be hunting at.

Cold Zero, You sound like you are in the top 1% when it comes to hunters but the sticker in your argument, from my point of view, is that an animal we have wounded deserves as quick and painless death as we can allow.

If I have seen the client shoot at the range, spent them with them in camp, know they are using good bullets and finally seen them make a good hit, with another quick followup shot, I have no reason to shoot.

But Alaskan law requires guides to prevent a wounded animal from escaping. And when bears are wounded their first impulse is to escape. It is usually not until they feel cornered that they become dangerous. I have had to follow way too many wounded bears into the pucker brush and faced a number of close range charges and
The best way I have found to stop a charge is to not allow it to get to that point.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Zero:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
True enough, but on the other hand everybody can make a bad shot. Especially on a high dollar hunt when finally face to face with the trophy they have dreamed about for years.
When you add the fact that some Alaskan, and many African animals, can easily kill you there is a reason that guides are required on some game.

Phil, good discussion, true enough. If my life was in danger, then yes I would want the Guide to shoot.

However, if I did make a bad shot, because it can happen, and the Guide had to take the animal down, then I would not want to have that animal on display in my house.

Phil, no sticking point. I think the above quote shows that I am well versed in AK. Game Law and the ethics, to not allow a wounded animal to escape. It is just my personal feeling that I would not want that animal hanging in my house. Some guys might not mind that, and there is nothing wrong with that decision, just not my preference.

No animal should be made to suffer longer, so that the ego of the hunter can remain instact, by waiting unnecessarily for him to finish the job, he was not able to finish on the first opprotunity.

The first shot, is the most important shot.

The angle at which those guys were shooting in the video would cause the bullet to rise. If those guys did not know this ballistic effect and aimed a little high thinking the shot would drop in due to the yardage then they would shoot over every time.
The new range finder that Leupold has on the market takes that angle into consideration and gives you the appropriate yardage to adjust your aim for or adjust your dial. This would be a very valuable tool when hunting in the mountains.

quote:

Originally posted by Dwight:
The angle at which those guys were shooting in the video would cause the bullet to rise. If those guys did not know this ballistic effect and aimed a little high thinking the shot would drop in due to the yardage then they would shoot over every time

quote:

Originally posted by Dwight:
The angle at which those guys were shooting in the video would cause the bullet to rise. If those guys did not know this ballistic effect and aimed a little high thinking the shot would drop in due to the yardage then they would shoot over every time.
The new range finder that Leupold has on the market takes that angle into consideration and gives you the appropriate yardage to adjust your aim for or adjust your dial. This would be a very valuable tool when hunting in the mountains.

Well,.........no.

At the ranges noted in the video one should be able to hold dead on and squeeze the trigger. A dall sheeps ribs are something like 12 " square and a caribou's 16" I'm guessing. In either case at less than 300 yards aiming in the middle and hitting in the middle would reduce the game to possession.

I've not just missed, but missed grandly. As I feel no inclination to lie on the internet it doesn't bother me in the slightest to say so. Last year I missed the big bull moose I took with my first shot and was fortunate enough to connect with the second.

It happens with everyone. While deer hunting down in New Mexico last fall it was entertaining to listen to the stories from the guide regarding "marksmen shooters" regaling the crowds with their grandure while in camp that proved to not be able to hit the mountain in the field. To the guides credit, no names were given in order to protect the foolish.

Your right if the shooter had just aimed center mass things may have turned out very successful with the first shot.

Ok, I just watched the video. I'd have to say, I know I'd have the shaaaaakkkieeess if that were me!

Now, the question of why the poor shooting? Aside from buck fever, I wonder about 2 things:

1. What distance was the hunter's rifle sighted in for? If it was 200 or even 250 yards, then the "top" of his trajectory could easily be 2 or 3" above line of sight.

Compound this with the verticle element of these particular shot presentations, and naturally the shots are going very high.

2. I can't think of anyplace close that I could practice shooting those distances at such a steep angle. I'm a pretty good shot, but I'm sure all bets would be off for me, never having shot at those angles!

Gives me more than a moment's pause, for sure!

friar

quote:

2. I can't think of anyplace close that I could practice shooting those distances at such a steep angle. I'm a pretty good shot, but I'm sure all bets would be off for me, never having shot at those angles

If you leave the flat lands go to Montana Wyoming, CO. There are thousands of place to shoot on very steep angles. One just has to look.

And with the new angle compensating range finders it is even easier.

quote:

Originally posted by friarmeier:
Ok, I just watched the video. I'd have to say, I know I'd have the shaaaaakkkieeess if that were me!

Now, the question of why the poor shooting? Aside from buck fever, I wonder about 2 things:

1. What distance was the hunter's rifle sighted in for? If it was 200 or even 250 yards, then the "top" of his trajectory could easily be 2 or 3" above line of sight.

Compound this with the verticle element of these particular shot presentations, and naturally the shots are going very high.

2. I can't think of anyplace close that I could practice shooting those distances at such a steep angle. I'm a pretty good shot, but I'm sure all bets would be off for me, never having shot at those angles!

Gives me more than a moment's pause, for sure!

friar

At the ranges indicated in the video theres no compensation. Hold in the middle, squeeze,........

Time seems to be a frequent issue, meaning not enough time taken to calm down, take a breath,......The sheep was laying down and may well have remained in that position for hours. When hunting my dall sheep my partner and I observed for less than an hour I suppose because those sheep were also laying down and there was no hurry! Eventually I squeezed off a shot and the ram I was targeting simply put his head down.

The moose I missed and then hit last year was a different situation. I am left handed and the roll of toilet paper was in my left hand because at that moment that was the priority. The rifle was in my right hand. I just happened to look around as I hot shoe'd it across the meadow and noticed him on his feet looking at me. I had no time. I missed with my first, connected with my second.

At the ranges indicated its not a matter of anything other than "Taking it easy man!" as the Dude would say.

No kidding?! I take your word for it, but would sure feel better w/ a little practice...

Now, as for getting out to Wyoming/Colorado/Montana...this is quite appealing...'cept for the fact that I'd be sleeping outside still upon my return home!



friar

Good Video but I have a little different opinion based only what I saw and heard. Lots of folks have never hunted in the mountains and don't understand what a severe downhill angle (like your 2 hunters appeared to have) will do to your point of aim. Even an excellent marksman will hit higher on an animal than anticipated often at steep angles. It is the responsibility of the hunter to make the shot but a calm word from the guide "hold 4 inches low of where you want to hit" might have helped either of the 2 what I assume might have been flat land hunters.

Then again after slipping and falling while hunting steep terrain for several days in Colorado one year I had knocked my scope around to where I was about 6" high and right at 100 yards when I missed a beautiful mule deer 3 times at about 290 yards. Couldn't say if that happend with your crew. No cheap scopes or mounts has solved that issue so far for me but I haven't gotten any more graceful or stopped hunting steep terrain.

Adrenalin is a tough thing for most people to adjust to let alone high altitide, fatigue, new rifles bought for the trip. Maybe you ask for them to ship you 60 empty cases from the rifle they are planning to use more than 1/2 not on a bench and 500 empty 22's to make sure they got enough practice - but still no guarantee.

Many long years ago I ran the gun counter at a large sporting goods store. On numerous occasions I had hunters stop by just prior to leaving for a guided hunt, be it Alaska, Canada or lower 48 hunts, to have their new scope mounted and bore sighted. Most left instructions to make sure it was zeroed x number of inches high at 100 yards.

I always advised they shoot the rifle to make any final adjustments as bore sighters are not intended to replace time on the range. I was always shocked to see how many people insisted bore sighting was enough and they did not have time to mess with shooting prior to their trip. "Just make sure the rifle is on", would be their instructions. Despite advising them to spend some time at the range zeroing their rifle many of them could not be convinced that bore sighting was not the same as zeroing.

It has always bothered me that there has probably been some lost game as a result of those bore sightings. I do remember getting cussed out a few times by "hunters" returning from a hunt having missed a trophy because they believed I had failed in bore sighting/zeroing their rifle correctly.

I'm glad I don't work in that world anymore.

Mart

I take EVERY client down to our shooting range before the head out to make sure they are sighted in. The poor shots we can deal with by simply getting them very close - and they at least know they are not good shots and seldom mind if the guide is required to shoot.
It is the self proclaimed "expert" shots that insist on keeping their rifles sighted in for 300 yards + and their scope turned up to the top power that are the biggest problem.

Phil, good thing your animals are BIG targets! :-)

Yea, that way they can at least get a bullet in them somewhere Even if it takes half a dozen shots.

FWIW, every time you halve the distance, the chance of a purely random hit increases fourfold!

To a certian extent kinda talking apples and oranges. A rifle not being on paper and marksmanship. Although the two often go hand in hand -> experience. It's one thing to check your zero after travel or a fall - pure luck on that. But, when someone shows up at camp with an improperly zeroed rifle- or who can't shoot. An outfitter's nightmare.

Unfortunately hunting is a very expensive hobby, and more often than not the truly well seasoned hunter is not often the one in camp, can't afford it....

Let's not forget the generalization "Rich ______________ with a fancy rifle...." and complete the sentence with "can't shoot," "rifle doesn't feed," etc

You can't throw money at a bear and expect him to die.......

Best story I have is I was in camp in Sonora Mexico and some tall blowhard (ironically from ? Anchorage ?) who started talking about his Ottmar, Biesen rifles and was hunting with a custom .270 Wby. He had those Little Swarovski opera binos, dressed the part......asked me "what are you after?" "A nice deer." "No, I mean 30" spread? What are you looking for" "A nice deer I repeated."

Next day or two big commotion outside. Outfitter asks Jim (I think) "Why didn't you shoot that deer?" "I didn't come here to shoot a whitetail." "That was a huge Coues deer, record sized........." "Doh"

and the "coup de grace:" he wound up shooting a 3 x 4 immature buck.

So the fix for the 'best way to learn clients how to shoot' is like trying to fix the federal deficit and remove all of the low life politicians in DC. Sadly enough realistically it still has to be filed in the "can't fix it, don't think it can be fixed file."

You guys have tabled some grand thoughts on the subject but we all know it's one of those unpleasent things we've read about, done ourselves or personally seen happen in the field. It is of a truth the nightmare of nightmares that most guides experience every year they're in the field.

Hats off to all guides and outfitters out there, it takes a measure of patience and grace I personally acknowledged early in life I didn't possess when considering such a grand occupation in the mid 1970's.

quote:

You can't throw money at a bear and expect him to die.......

I love that statement!!!

I just watched the video and admittedly have no place commenting here because I am not a guide with that said I have put a lot of people on animals without collecting a fee.
In my opinion both of the animals in the video should have been taken quite easily by anyone who has spent ANY time behind their trigger.
My children could have made both those shots without any drama and one of my kids is 9 years old.
Both shots were known yardage from a rest, animals relaxed and no hurry required, distances relatively short and for any rifle (lets just say a 30/06 for instance) no holdover or guess where to hold required. If your rifle is sighted 2" high at 100 (or dead on at 200 yards) both of those animals should have been done on the first shot without repeat misses.
Either the guys equipment was lacking (loose scope or?) or my first guess very poor shooting.

I must admit though I got a great laugh out of the video

I've missed and seen misses that like in the video just go on and on and on and on. It makes me very uncomfortable to watch videos like the one posted because I'm waiting for a poor hit on the target and an exaggerated suffering and death. You know, hit in the ass, back legs drop out, front legs pulling in a circle,.......horrifying. Good shots are neat to watch. Lights out! Straight down.

The last two moose I've taken here have been lights out. I had a winter caribou hunt here one time that found me out of ammo and no caribou tagged. Embarrasing sure, but more than that. It takes quite a bit out of all of us I'm sure to end on a bad note. Bad endings leave a question in the hunters mind that doesn't go away until the next opportunity that may well be months away.

A favorite that I observed via video: Alaska Dall sheep hunt. Hunter moves as close as he can,(not nearly close enough,)from below the rams and begins the "rangeing fire", literally adjusting up while observing the bullet strikes below the ram until he holds high enough to hit the ram in the foot. Mortar type trajectory. No shit,........ in the foot. The hunter unloads the rifle several times and calls to his partner to re supply him. If memory serves, several more hits were made in a variety of places on the rams body until it was finally whittled down to possession. The hunter starring in the movie was all grins showing me this horror show and I reacted with less than adoration. His Missus wisely told us both to knock it off and that was the end of it but I've never forgotten that butchery and told myself I'd never invite him out here for a bear hunt. Moose sure, and he did in fact do a pretty poor job on that one too but bears,....NO AND ABSOLUTELY NO!

I thought this was the best way to "learn clients how to shoot"!