I would suggest that if anyone needs information concerning a guide, that the person responding does so by private message of some sort. There is the possibility of legal action if you post something about someones business in an open forum that might be slander.

Just a thought to benifit the guides and the hunters.

One of the great value the internet has to us is sharing of information.I would therefore strongly recommend you publish good and bad on this forum,rather than the unobtrusive private way.
I do not think we expose ourselves legally if we stay with the facts- as mostly its done.
Let the reader make up his own mind,you do not have to slander a person,just report the facts.

If I could ,I would furthermore recommend to have those reports in a seperate folder,so interested hunters/consumers can research these at will.
If these reports are available and STAY, accessible for a long time,we the consumer will benefit,the outfitter if honest will benefit,the crook will be exposed.Not by explicit labeling but by publishing facts.The reader will furthemore learn to read between the lines.

Liability might be encountered if someone plants misleading or false "facts".

We dont have to steep so low.Just reports facts

I think you are also free to publish your own personal summarial opinion,would you return,would you recommend ?

If we had such a folder that can be searched for years-undoubtedly many would be steered away from crooks and outfitters that lack the ethical framework.

YOu cant overestimate the power of published opininions!

sheephunter

Sheephunter,
You are 100% correct. Publishing the truth is freedom of speech and should be done in the case of bad outfitters, and I hope the web master of this site agrees. Libel and slander come into play when you have lied. There is another site that does not allow the posting of negative issues and I told the webmaster he was a disgrace to the ethical hunting community. So many people are concerned about the anti's, hell if we don't get this thing together soon, we will just self destruct from within. Hiding a bad outfitter or his actions just repulses me, and for what, so the next guy can get screwed also. Not as long I am still breathing!!!

It is a crying goddamned shame,that when a man relates less than a warm/fuzzy feeling,some chickenshit cocksucker is right there with the Lawyer angle threatening a suit.

The honest relating of firsthand experiences is powerful info and cheap research,for a prospective client(consumer). To think that a man can't relate his findings without fear of litigation,makes me fume.

Someone intentionally muckraking a business of sound practice,should be held accountable. But the gent that says "This happened to me",should be granted the podium to plainly state his experiences.

This whole chiskenshitted politically correct ass kissing society of ours,does nothing but bring all parties down and fleece the inside of Lawyers pockets,while doing an injustice to others for sweeping less than balmy reports under the carpet.

I believe a consumer has the right to research and that those who've been there/done that,has the right to relate their subjective findings.

Rant mode off and your mileage may vary.....................

Bigstick, could you tell us how you really feel
I have to admit, I agree with you 100%. I also feel that the good reports should also be brought to our attention.
There are many good outfitters out there, it would be nice to get a good report once in a while.

It was just a thought guys!
We had this happen on one other board and the owner only found out about the negative post throught a friend. He was not very happy because he was not able to tell his side of the story for several weeks after the post. Some people come up here and expect to land on a 60" moose or a trophy caribou every time with bright sunny weather.

Big Stick has it right, and he has Big Balls to use the right language to express it.

Lawyers are the two-legged wolves that stop Alaskans from maintaining the 4-legged wolves at a proper balance. If there weren't crooked lawyers out there with their souls sold to money, the green loonies wouldn't be as powerful as they are.

And that's the little stuff. The legal "industry" has our society muffed up from hell to breakfast. Like I told a judge once in court, "There's a whole lot of law being practiced in here, and absolutely no justice." (That little snippet costed me big).

I think having a seperate place to post this information would be a good idea. I've started collecting information about guides and outfitters that have recieved positive posts by their clients for future reference. I especially take note of the ones that are posted as a new topic and not in response to a general open question. It shows the person was so moved by their experience that they felt compelled by their own conscience to tell the world. The recent inquiry by the guy researching for the guide his father used in the 60's or early '70's was one example of one that impressed me.

I also believe it would only be fair to the guides and outfitters to have them notified about the post in an expedient manner, to allow them a rebuttle or at least an explanation. There's always two sides to the story. But, in general I think it would flush out the snakes, especially if there are repeated negative reports about a guide or outfitter. One must be careful about name changes too.

Big Stick, I like your method of presenting your views. I think we could use a few politicians with your character so we could get the facts without the icing. Or so us common folk can understand what's being said in plain and simple language.

huntsternorth, I see you have also experienced the cost of freedom of speech. I agree with what you said, so thank you for speaking for me too.
Bill

sheephunter;

i agree with u wholeheartedly.

when i write a report i write the good just as i write the negative. as objectively as i can. i state the facts of my trip. let the reader decide. i always include a way to contact me if the reader has questions. i do take the time and effort to write the reports. it is a lot easier to write a good report than a negative report.

i recently received a threatening email from an outfitter i hunted with some years back. he went to the effort of contacting other outfitters i have hunted with to see if he could find any info/dirt on me, illegal or other wise. if he was successful i'm sure i would have seen or heard about the results by now. those who do the right thing whether they are hunter or outfitter have nothing to worry about. he even contacted an outfitter that i had a hunt booked with in the future. i will not be silenced by threats or intimidiation. i fear no outfitter or their attorneys or attempted muckraking. even though many advised me not to go on the hunt i did anyway because i am not the kind of man to back down to threats whether on my own turf or in the far reaches of remoteness.

cold zero

let the truth speak......

Once again, my man Stick tells it like it is. What a breath of fresh air you are. There is no way in hell you are a democrat. They outlaw open speech, unless it is their puny ass own talking.........

I've a brother in law who has every animal in Alaska, and other areas on his wall. I dont respect his animals for one simple reason. He got all of them on a guided hunt. That's zoo hunting, and guided hunts have done nothing for average hard working men who hunt. I fully understand there are some really cool guides, but I stand on my comment. It has really screwed up hunting in general.....

quote:

Originally posted by AggieDog:
I've a brother in law who has every animal in Alaska, and other areas on his wall. I dont respect his animals for one simple reason. He got all of them on a guided hunt. That's zoo hunting, and guided hunts have done nothing for average hard working men who hunt. I fully understand there are some really cool guides, but I stand on my comment. It has really screwed up hunting in general.....

Too bad you feel this way. You will miss a lot by not being able to hunt Brown Bear or Sheep in Alaska or to hunt in the Yukon, BC or Alberta at all.

Your choice of course.

AggieDog you are a MORON

Ya he does seem to be ,, But with that attitude we probably will never have to endure him up here. Other than on the puter........

end zoo hunting now ,lets get rid of the guides. then we can get a few dozen more Coast Guard helecopters to look for Daniel Boone wannabes screeming HELP ME HELP ME




If your'e gonna be dumb you gotta be tough

Big Stick may have slightly overstated his opinion but, I AGREE WITH HIM COMPLETELY! If we don't start sticking up for our right to voice our opinion you won't be able to say shit in your own house without the approval of the "politically correct committee"!

Lets face it guiding is a closed shop in Alaska designed to make money..You can go into the Alaskan wildneress and do about any other pursuit and not require a guide, but if a visitor wants to hunt grizz or sheep all of a suden thats "different"...

According to Ak law its ok for some spotty 18 year old kid from Anchorage to go off and hunt griz on his own, but a vetran bear hunter from say Arizona who has perhaps hunted Alaska or Canada previously "needs" a guide...

Before any one whines, I am not against guides as such, and for many people booking a guided hunt makes good sense, but if I lived in one of the lower 48 States, I would certainly be pissed at this protectionist legislation..

Clueless guide sentenced for defrauding hunters
FAKE: Nikiski man deserted clients afield, never made trips, set himself on fire.

By BRANDON LOOMIS
Anchorage Daily News

Published: February 3, 2007
Last Modified: February 3, 2007 at 02:11 AM


KENAI -- Dozens of hoodwinked hunters bagged a measure of justice Friday in the case of the wilderness guide who set himself on fire because he couldn't work a camp stove.


Wally Dean Jackson Jr. of Nikiski was sentenced to two years in prison for misrepresenting himself as a hunting and fishing guide, defrauding sportsmen out of $100,000 or more. Kenai Superior Court Judge Harold Brown suspended another 9.5 years of prison time that Jackson could face if he violates terms of his 10-year probation.

In what troopers with the Alaska Bureau of Wildlife Enforcement called the most stupefying case of guiding fraud the state has seen, Jackson pleaded no contest to numerous counts including guiding without a license and scheming to defraud victims, some of whom he never met, even after they paid him.

Those who did meet Jackson soon regretted it, investigators said.

"His woodsman savvy is zero, but he tells everyone he's second to Jim Bridger," trooper Marc Cloward said after the sentencing, a reference to the 19th century mountain man of mythic proportions.

Consider the time that Jackson took clients into the woods and they reported that he couldn't figure out the stove -- ultimately breaking the outdoorsman's first rule of safety by dumping fuel on a flame, troopers said.

"Mr. Jackson had no idea how to use the cook stove, and when he tried to he set himself on fire," prosecutor Andrew Peterson told the judge during Friday's hearing. That anecdote drew derisive laughter from the 17 victims who had phoned in from Outside to hear Jackson's fate by conference call.

In the camp stove episode, the clients extinguished the flames, troopers said.

Once, according to the state, Jackson picked up an old pelvic bone from a moose and told clients who knew better that it was a moose skull.

Another time, Jackson met clients for a guided river trip and couldn't figure out which end of the raft was the front, according to the state's sentencing memorandum.

In other cases he allegedly took clients afield with inadequate food consisting of dehydrated meals and candy bars, with only one book of matches, and without securing the bear tags he had promised. On numerous occasions he was accused of offering to let clients illegally use his own tag if they killed a bear. Some clients, such as a few who accompanied him on a bear hunt at Cape Yakataga, reported avoiding him after the first day because they felt endangered around such an unskilled outdoorsman.

The trips occurred between 2002 and 2005, including after troopers began interviewing Jackson about complaints.

Jackson frequently operated around Cook Inlet and the Kenai Peninsula, though destinations were spread from Lake Clark to Cape Yakataga, where clients reported that they had to seek food from local residents.

Various clients sought bears, moose, salmon and other Alaska trophies.

In several cases, investigators said, Jackson brought clients to remote destinations and then left them, claiming his mother had a stroke or that there was a murder in the family. The clients made their own way back or sought assistance.

"He's lucky he didn't kill somebody, abandoning people in the field," Cloward said. "He's totally inexperienced and always biting off more than he could handle."

On a Web site that allows clients to rate guides, one from England who allegedly lost $5,000 when Jackson skipped out on his trip rated him "terrible" in several service categories, and "city slicker" for guiding experience.

In court Friday, the 37-year-old would-be guide apologized and said he meant to run an honest business.

"It wasn't my goal to defraud anybody," he said. "It is our full intent to repay the victims."

"Yeah, right," two of the victims on the conference call said, one after the other. Peterson, a prosecutor with the state Office of Special Prosecutions, said he doesn't expect Jackson will repay the money, but a judgment against him will help in case he ever has any assets.

There are 40 identified victims who paid a total of $117,000 for trips that either didn't happen or weren't as advertised, Peterson said. Credit card companies may have reimbursed some of their expenses, he said, and defense attorney David Mallet told the judge he believes the figure still owed is less than $100,000. Brown will impose a restitution order after the sides negotiate.

Mallet had no comment after the hearing.

Soldotna Dall sheep hunting guide Bob Hammer said he was both personally and professionally insulted by Jackson's crimes. He paid more than $1,200 at a Safari Club International fundraising auction for a Prince William Sound bear hunt that Jackson offered to the nonprofit hunting organization, he said. Jackson never provided the hunt, and Safari Club refunded the money.

Hammer said the case hurts his industry's image with clients who idealize the state.

"I know people save their whole lives to come to Alaska," he said. "Other than Africa, Alaska is the ultimate in hunting."

Judge Brown, whose courtroom art includes two brown bear etchings and a painting of ducks in flight, personally apologized to the victims on the phone.

"On behalf of the state of Alaska I apologize deeply," he said. "If it were within my power, we'd bring you all back here and demonstrate what a trip of a lifetime to Alaska can be."

Besides needing a guide as a non resident to hunt Brown Bear/Grizzlies and Sheep, you also need one to hunt the Mt. Goat. Typically, these animals are where the big money comes into play. The rescue reason is just crap. There are lots of hunters that are seasoned enough to hunt without a guided service. They should be allowed to make their own choices. A person can hike those remote areas till his feet fall off and no authority stops him from doing so. The hiker can get lost and into trouble just as quick and easy as one that is hunting game. Hell, I guess a man can't get lost and into trouble while hunting Caribou or Moose., only the sheep, big bears and goats. Hmmm..yes protectionism going on here. Well, with all of the companies catering to hunters/adventurers lately suppying them with everything they need to make a great(and safe) hunting trip sooner or later the guided crap will come to an end for those that don't want to pay through the nose for one. We are all responsible for our own safety and if you make the choice and it costs you your life, so be it. Mountain climbers do this all the time without interference from authorities so why should hunting sheep or griz be any different?

Woody

You non-residents that know what's best for Alaska are a hoot.....

The "rescue reason" doesn't happen that often.....the guide requirement is part of a management plan so that we're not over-run with folks from outside(protectionism of a sort). The original guide requirement was a decree, in 1926, from the Alaska Territorial Governor because of overhunting by non-residents coming up by steam ships and decimating the moose and sheep, primarily on the Kenai Peninsula...the requirement has been revised over the years....as far as mountain climbers go, well, until recently, they were regularly rescued in spite of their experience and knowledge of Denali, Sanford, and other peaks....climbers are required to have permits and are limited in numbers as in other popular climbing venues.

Hikers can go anywhere they want......well sure they can.....they're not part of a game management plan.

One last thought......recently, thanks to bickering and an attempted grab over the limited non-res hunting in some popular hunting areas in the lower 48, a law was passed in the Congress of the U.S. that allows each state to regulate hunting as it sees fit......I wouldn't hold my breath 'til "the guided crap comes to an end"......I wouldn't be suprised to see moose added to the list in the future.

Joe

Pete, just a question for you. Have you hunted Alaska? Thanks.

Orvis,

Its not a case of non residents knowing whats best for AK, but head scratching at why fellow Americans from the lower 48 are descriminated against, even on Federal land??

I totally agree that there needs to be & should be management, but in most other States, isn't that achieved by a draw for resident and non resident tags for a given game species??

Hardballer,

No I've never hunteed there...wondered about it in the past, but the various red tape and costs don't make it very atractive...For that sort of hunt Canada, or maybe Scandinavia look a little more practical from my perspectice...

BTW by comments in the posts above have nothing to do with my desires or not to hunt AK..that would be a different kettle of fish....I accept there should be perhaps different rules from people outside of the country..

It just seems strange that certain States descriminate against other *Americans* by the the guide requirement even on Federal land within the State...That being additional to the resident and non resident draws ect...I think New Mexico is another?

Regards,

Pete

Pete E,

When you have a finite resource, there are many ways to protect it.......our draw hunts are available to non-residents on an EQUAL basis; that is, there is no set number of tags set aside for nons-residents......they have the same chance as a resident to draw these very popular tags......that's discrimination??????Pete, the "Federal Land" issue is a favorite of internet warriors......if it's such an issue, so discriminatory, why haven't the courts done something about it?????? The guide requirement is a very effective means of preserving what we have......especially from folks that don't know the difference between "ovis" and "orvis".

Pete, there are a number of states that have laws that restrict non-resident hunters in one way or another......with habitat disappearing at an alarming rate and hunters hiding their heads in the sand hoping these issues will go away, the restrictions on non-residents will only become more common.....individual states have the option, by federal law, to regulate fish and game as they see fit.....

Pete, if you really want to know about how Alaska fish and game regulations come about.....it begins on a very grassroots level, where any resident is urged to attend local Board of Game Advisory Committees to present their thoughts through written proposals from other citizens.....it goes on from there and a lot of people participate, a progression from the local community committees right up to the state board level...any citizen can write a proposal for consideration by the local committee....and it's taken VERY seriously by Alaskans.....look it up...read about it.....maybe you'll get a better understanding about why we take what we have so seriously.....we actually have a hand in shaping what is best for our state.....novel idea, eh?

Joe

I gotta jump in on this & agree with Ovis. As far as I'm concerned, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. First, you guys in the lower 48 have virtually a 100% chance of hunting brownies on Kodiak. We resident Alaskans have, perhaps about a 4% chance. This due to the way the drawings are set up. On top of that, since I've hunted elk on Afognak Island numerous times - with the attendant bear problems, I should be allowed to hunt southern Wyoming for elk. Last I looked, as a non-resident, I need a guide to hunt that area if I wished. Each state has the right to manage their own game as they see fit so I don't see any right to gripe. If'n ya wanna hunt Alaska a lot, come up here, get a job & become a resident. Bear in Fairbanks

I agree with ovis and bear........If you don,t have an Out fitter or guide,,, How are you going to access the area...??? I think that if non residents want to hunt Brn Br. sheep or goats they should put up a $35,000.00 bond against their rescue costs... But it is just too much for 80 % of the people who want to do it .. Ask any Alaskan hunting Guide how many clients ,,Can,t ,walk enough to get their animal.. And that is with an experienced person helping them.......I thot we had killed this horse last month here........

ovis, thanks for coming clean on the protectionism facts. I guess I better get up there and get my moose before I need a guide for that too. I'm pretty sure I can tell the difference between a moose and a caribou without a guide nudging me. Actually, I along with my 21 yr. old son plan to use one of the highly rated adventure outfitters up there to plan out an"unguided" float trip for moose(I learned about this option here a few days ago) but its still in the planning stages(more research is needed).

Gumboot458. if these adventure outfitters(they are just as good as the regular ones) can get me on a good moose or caribou trip without a guide(they provide everything but the guide) why would they not be able to do the same for sheep,mt goat or grizzlies if I was allowed to draw a tag for them(regulated hunt quota too)? I could just as easily shoot a griz as I could a moose on one of those unguided float trips they provide(remember the draw tag protects against over harvesting) since they share the same habitat. I agree this is not for everyone but there are lots of capable hunters up to the task. As for accessing the remote areas, the adventure outfitters already have those bases covered. Still actually need a guide to get you onto the game...not in all cases for all hunters. As for me, the guided crap has me(and a lot of other deserving average folks) priced right out of the opportunity to hunt sheep and griz that the wealthier folks get to enjoy. Will I ever get the opportunity to hunt sheep in Alaska, not as long as Alaska F&G caters to the wealthy clients. OK, the horse is now dead!

Daveinbush, what the sport expects and what is reality is one of the guide's (outfitter's) jobs to clear up before the guy gets off the plane. An HONEST assessment of what to expect is due anyone you're guiding.

While there are certainly a goodly number of non residents full capable of hunting AK unguided, there are also quite a few that have no business off the pavement. And yes, there are a fair number of residents, and temperary residents with resident tags that don't belong off pavement either. Kinda makes me think of the tundra dummies.

There are lots of things in life that aren't fair. If you really want to hunt Alaskan game as a resident, then become a resident. You'll likely have a greater respect for the game, the land and the people of the state.

Lots of options folks. I can't afford to hunt Marco Polo or a safari to Africa RIGHT NOW either, but guess what? I am working a part time job saving for those dreams. I dreamed of hunting Alaska, my families thought I lost my mind when I packed up and moved to Alaska. If you wanna it bad enough, you will find a way to do it....It's all on just how bad you want it and what you want to give up. Like Paul said, life ain't fair but you can change it.

There are lots of things in life that aren't fair. If you really want to hunt Alaskan game as a resident, then become a resident. You'll likely have a greater respect for the game, the land and the people of the state.[/QUOTE]

If you haven,t been here and done it you don,t KNOW what problems you would face......Say I got drawn for a Big Horn sheep hunt in Wyoming or Arizona ....There is no way I would want to bet my success and safety on trying to do it on the cheap..........Or alligators in Florida.....Now if I wanted it bad enough and then moved there and learned all the big and little things I needed to know to shoot the right animal.. and not suffer from exposure ect.......I could do it un guided.......There are always people who are cheap and Alaska Law protects our wild life and residents from suffering from much of their depradations........

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
ovis, thanks for coming clean on the protectionism facts. I guess I better get up there and get my moose before I need a guide for that too. I'm pretty sure I can tell the difference between a moose and a caribou without a guide nudging me. Actually, I along with my 21 yr. old son plan to use one of the highly rated adventure outfitters up there to plan out an"unguided" float trip for moose(I learned about this option here a few days ago) but its still in the planning stages(more research is needed).

Gumboot458. if these adventure outfitters(they are just as good as the regular ones) can get me on a good moose or caribou trip without a guide(they provide everything but the guide) why would they not be able to do the same for sheep,mt goat or grizzlies if I was allowed to draw a tag for them(regulated hunt quota too)? I could just as easily shoot a griz as I could a moose on one of those unguided float trips they provide(remember the draw tag protects against over harvesting) since they share the same habitat. I agree this is not for everyone but there are lots of capable hunters up to the task. As for accessing the remote areas, the adventure outfitters already have those bases covered. Still actually need a guide to get you onto the game...not in all cases for all hunters. As for me, the guided crap has me(and a lot of other deserving average folks) priced right out of the opportunity to hunt sheep and griz that the wealthier folks get to enjoy. Will I ever get the opportunity to hunt sheep in Alaska, not as long as Alaska F&G caters to the wealthy clients. OK, the horse is now dead!

Now you need to be able to read verry well also some surveying exp. might also be helpful. Thoes spike, fork, 50" 3 or 4 browtine areas are a bitch.

Most of Alaska is flat, it all looks the same (no landmarks )

for the down southers who think you can take the bus to beartown then pick the one you want if only you didnt have to hire a giude, your in for a surprise when you get here. lets start with southeast, there are virtually no roads anywhere you can hunt brown bear,and the ones there is will have a bunch of locals riding 4 wheelers on them. Your outfitter is not supposed to tell you where the bears are and ride you around looking, this is guiding. so now you need a good boat for a couple weeks to find a decent bear, your cartopper fold-a-boat wont work when that 50mph blow whips up some afternoon and you need to cover another 50 miles of beachline and you havnt seen any bears yet. so you decide to do the interior thing , once again not many roads. any trail or driveable surface that can be accessed from Anchorage or Fairbanks, well 20 yrs ago i counted 75 pickups at one trailhead (get the idea) AHH lets float the river (remember this gotta be bear season not july)your probably see lots of moose and maybe a bunch of boo . chances are you wont ever see a bear no matter where you hunt. now your pissed, your at least as smart as tredwell, how dare anukpuk say this?
tredwell found bears, so can i . well sorry but tredwell wasnt filming during hunting season
the moral of the story- BROWN bear hunting and moose hunting are not even a good comparison there is not a bear behind every tree, but there is about 900 moose inside the anchorage city limits

If your gonna be dumb you gotta be tough

I have hunted all around the globe, both with and without guides and in my opinion a good guide is well worth his fee -- unless you have the time and money to spend getting to really get to know both the terrain and the game. Most folks don't.

For a good, may not great, chance at a Dall Sheep or Brown bear, you could get there if you saved $150 per month, $5 per day, for 5.5 years (of course not taking into account inflation). I think until you've been there you can't imagine the SIZE of the country. Then you start counting the logistics involved (roads only cover a small fraction of the state - everything has to be flown), cost of living, etc., then the prices aren't all that out of line. You are not talking about ordinary adventures.

And, I'm not saying it's the best deal in world but it's not the biggest rip-off either. If you want the best bang for your $$, go to Africa (but don't try going without a guide).

If you want the best deal on a true wilderness experience try the unguided options in Alaska, but make no mistake, it is not for the light hearted. I walked for months before my trip, the last two with a weighted pack, and I still found that just walking around on the alpine tundra to be the toughest workout I've ever been through. And, I've worked in the field, forestry and wildlife work, for going on 15 years - though I now spend a great deal of time behind a desk. I know that if I ever get a chance at a Dall sheep or a brown bear with a good guide, I will be happy to pay what I've paid (especially if the guide is helping tote around all that stuff you have to tote around up there).

quote:

the various red tape and costs don't make it very atractive...For that sort of hunt Canada, or maybe Scandinavia look a little more practical from my perspectice...

Pete, if you dont want to pay a Guide/outfitter, you wont be hunting in AB either....nor will you do it in Sask., BC, YK, or NWT! I dont know about the Right (wrong) side of Canada, nor do I care.

Price wise, AK & YK are almost identical, with many BC ot YK Interior Griz hunts going for prices that exceed the cost of a very, very good Coastal Brown Bear hunt.