Ray:
With all due respect, your comments regarding the popularity of the .30-06., .300 Win & .338 are, at the least, misleading. Just because a cartridge is popular has nothing to do with its effectiveness on game. You're comparing apples & oranges. All of we Alaskans know that it's highly unlikely one would find .35 Whelan ammunition over the counter in a store in "Bush", Alaska. I think we'd all agree as well that many people in the bush don't handload and so, rely on over the counter ammo. I interpret your post to imply that since it's not "popular", it isn't as effective on large Alaskan game as say, a .30-06.
While I don't own & have never shot a .35 Whelan, I simply can't believe it not to be a very effective cartridge on animals up to & including moose. This from looking at the ballistics & talking with a local gunsmith who used one for years. In fact, if I remember correctly, he told me that ideally, the .35 Whelan Imp. would handle the heavier bullets better & performed better on moose size game. This from memory of several years ago.
In short, just becaues it's not "popular" doesn't mean it's not good or effective and yes, I'm being an "armchair" ballistician here. Bear in Fairbanks

The .338 WM provides the heavier, wider bullet at the same general velocities as the 30-06. Obviously, it will provide more energy at impact.

Funny, even though there is reference to the Magnificent .300 WM in this thread, no where in this discussion is the mention of the heaviest .30 caliber bullet (220 grain) at the higher magnum velocities.

Im talking about some of the highest sectional densities and outstanding ballistic coefficients out there, with famous .30 caliber bullet selections.

Good close and far for the toughest North American game.

My personal thought is, there is a limit to the effectiveness of a given caliber. Once you are getting consistent exits, then the only way to increase the effectiveness is to increase velocity or bullet dia. The 30 cal is certainly a highly effective and versatile round, but it isn�t the be all, end all. The 220 gr bullets were developed at a time that conventional bullet construction required more bullet weight to provide sufficient penetration. I believe you�ll find that with modern premium bullets, there are very few instances where a bullet heavier than 180 grs is called for in the 30 cal. If you need more gun, then get more gun, but don�t go to a heavier, slower skinny bullet.

Also, the 220 gr sd is a misquote, or one is not familiar with Woodleighs .358� 310 gr bullet. The 310 gr .358� has an sd of .346 vs .331 for the 220 gr .308�. That is all a moot point, as I can�t see any reason to use the 310 gr in the whelen, though at a moderate 2200 fps I�d expect it to be capable of taking the largest of game.

Now, with the requirement of a custom built gun, and handloading, is the 35 whelen a practical choice? No, the 338 win mag is the practicle choice. But if one is looking for an �06 based medium bore, with nearly 1 century of field use under it�s belt, you can�t go wrong with the 35 whelen. Just because things are old doesn�t mean they aren�t effective. With modern bullets and powders, the whelen is better than ever. I�d take a 225 gr partition, a-frame or X-bullet @ 2700 fps from the whelen over any 180 gr at the same speed from an �06, for any hunting application. I�d also take the whelen with a 250 gr @ 2500 fps over any 30 caliber magnum or not for hunting large game.

There are no spots on the 300 win mag, get one that shoots a 165 gr X @ 3300 fps, and you�ll have a bou, blacktail, goat and sheep rifle w/o peer. On the other hand, for large bears, I�ll take a 416 or 458 pushing 350 gr @ 2500 fps.

With all that said, I had my 35 whelen imp. Re-chambered to a 350 Rigby Magnum, 250 gr @ 2700 fps makes it as good a medium bore as I�ve found. I�d even settle for 2500 fps, but it�s sweet spot is right at 2700.

In the field on big critters like moose& bear,I have never been able to see a difference between the 338 and 35 whelen on game reaction after being hit,but I have seen a big difference in game reaction to being hit with a 338/35 whelen and the 300win!The whelen when loaded with a 250gr x bullet or partition have more than enough penetration from any angle on big moose.
I have a 375 taylor and it will equal the H&H with any bullet as the capacity is very close,the taylor with a 22" barrel will toss the 300gr nosler @ 2600.All this aside If I wanted one of the best big bear/moose rifles It wouldn't be a 338 or 35 whelen -I would take a 416 taylor/rem with a 350gr swift.

Ray,

The only negative comments I hear about the 35 whelens penetration are from armchair balisticians, and from wet newspaper hunters. I have never read complaints about the 35 whelens performance ON GAME, with standard cup core bullets, and certainly not with the "premium" bullets available today.

The 35 whelen won't kill deader than on -06, but it just might kill quicker, will definately provide a better blood trail should tracking be reuquired, and just may allow shots at angles that wouldn't be attempted with a lesser gun.

This is no magic of the 35 caliber, it is the advantage of medium bores, whether they be the 338-06, 338 mag, 35 whelen, 358 Norma, 350 Rigby, 9.3X62, 375 H&H, or a passel of other cases used to launch the same bullets. Bigger bullets don't have to trade off penetration for wound diameter as small bores do, you through enough bullet to get both.

I found this forum by accident and found the comments mixed, knowledgable and those who read and repeat stats. I have been hunting in Alaska for the last 15 years with a relatively light M70 35 Whelen Ack Imp as my primary rifle, generally using the 225 gn Nosler Partition since it came out. Have also tried Swifts, X-bullets, Kodiak and Grand Slams but stuck with Noslers. I push the 225 round a bit, getting a chrongraphed 2850+ fps out of a 22 1/2 SS Douglas. What I see missing from the strings is mention that Nosler thickens the jackets in .338 and larger bullets which makes that them perform very different than a 180 or 200gn 30 cal Partion. Regardless of what the high velocity proponents say, large bullets at medium velocity seem to work better than lighter bullets at higher velicities on large animals - I have seen that in Africa as well as Alaska. Since velocity and bullet mass are the core of recoil calculations I see little difference than if using a similar weight 338 Win Mag except I can carry 5 down in the magazine, on an empty chamber, which is a just comfort factor when packing out meat in bear country. One other comment - adding a Leica rangefinder to my gear has been the most important upgrade in years - very few people I have ever hunted with are good judges of distance over 200 meters - so having a very flating shooting cartridge does not seem as important as it used to be - knowing the real trajectory from range experience (not from a ballistic chart) makes is all work.

Of all the caribou, moose and ptargiman that I have shot with the Whelen I have never recovered one bullet.

Since I am left handed, back in 89 when I was making the decision to move to Alaska, a Rem. 7600 in .35 Whelen was my only chlice. I have never regretted the move. Topped with a 6X Leupold the gun is a quick shooter. Add to that the versilitily of .375 pistol bullets to 300 grain bullets, it pretty much covers anything up here.

I now have 2, the other a NEF Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation.

Of all the moose I have killed with my .338WM I have only recovered two bullets. One is a 230-grain FS, and the other a 250-grain A-Frame. The former was recovered from the biggest moose I have killed so far, shot at about 225 yards with a quartering-away shot that broke the far shoulder bone. The later was recovered from the hide on the far side of a moose that was shot 250 yards away through the lungs.



I load FS bullets to produce 2830 fps at the muzzle on a cool day (around 40 degrees, 3,000' altitude max.), while the 250-grain A-Frame I load to produce nearly 2,700 fps.



A few years ago I shot a moose through the shoulders with a factory 230-grain FS. The moose was browsing 250 yards away. I aimed to hit the heart, to barely miss the shoulder bone. However, the bullet broke the near shoulder bone, clipped the heart arteries, broke the far shoulder bone, and exited. The moose shook and dropped like hit by lighting.



On Sept. 11, 2001 I shot a moose through the lungs with a 250-grain NOS-HE from Federal. The moose was walking across my field of view through the trees, then it stopped at the edge of the trail 250 yards away, broadside. This moose had seeing me (that's why it was moving away). The 250-grainer hit the lungs, and the moose pivoted on its hind legs and dropped at the edge of the trail facing the way it had come out of the trees. That was the easiest moose to skin and quarter, since I got my ATV and meat trailer on the trail next to it.



The first moose I ever killed (I started hunting late in my life, at the age of 47), was shot 300 yards away, and only the third off-hand shot was lethal. By then I was half deaf from the muzzle blast of my rifle's KDF brake. Yes...I was a "novice" and dumber. Now I wear electronic ear muffs and get closer.



The biggest moose I have killed (mentioned above) was shot at 9:30 PM when it was getting dark in the trees. The first shot was lethal, but since the moose walked I had no idea about it, so I shot it two more times by the time it dropped. One of the shots was taken right through the rump (near the socket on the thighs, from the side), since in the darkness I had thought I was looking at the chest trough my rifle scope. I have been killing a moose each year, except for two years ago. Except for the two moose mentioned above, all have dropped on the spot or very close to it, and with one shot.



Before I ever shot a moose for the first time, my very experienced and "hunting moose forever" hunting partners sat me down and told me exactly where to shoot a moose or a bear for a fast kill. When moose browse in my backyard, I look at them carefully to memorize their vitals from all angles.



Shot placement is the key, coupled to the right caliber and bullet for the task. All the cartridges mentioned here would do just as well as my .338WM; it just happens that my rifle is the only large game gun I own.

Tex21,



Interesting thread. I too have been looking at the 35 Whelen. I just purchased a Mauser action and have been trying to decide on the caliber.



A couple of thoughts. I own a 30-06. Many years ago, a small custom house was producing 300 grain .30 bullets. The thought of firing that in a 30-06 always fascinated me. Recently I was boar hunting. Another hunter used a 35 Remington. I liked what I saw in terms of results. But, as others will be quick to point out, a boar is not a good measure, as with proper placement, they are easy to bring down.



I think the advantage to the 35 Whelen is that it will launch a 250+ bullet with 30-06 levels of recoil. I have been slowly moving towards the idea of .358 Norma Magnum. It takes 35 to logical level for bear, etc. If I must have a .35 then it seems to make sense to me. After all, I can load them to produce 35 Whelen results if I want.



Pete

Ray's lengthy post has me emboldend to write. I can't detract from anything I've read. All I will do here is denigrate my favorite caliber: the 30-06.

I've lived in the Mat-Su for 30 years. I've hunted moose the whole time, either here or statewide. I've shot up my share of moose. I've primarily used my beloved -06, mostly with 180 grains. A few years ago, I finally graduated to my .338 (which I've also had for years, but never used). I got tired of the teasing that the 30-06 required multiple shots to put the moose away.

The 30-06 worked, but I have been growing uneasy with the moose shot repeatedly, often through the heart among the first shots, yet still walked, ran or otherwise kept going. I even watched a 67" bull take two magazines of 220 grain Sierra Pro Hunters. He didn't go anywhere, but he didn't die easy, either. The last straw was a big black bear that ambled off (and never found) after being shot dead center in the chest with the -06, 180 grain, while looking at me, standing on two legs like a man.

All these years I endured my brother-in-law killing moose with his poorly maintained .300 WM (complete with cheap, shoddy Walmart-type purchased factory ammo) with single shots.

Time to graduate. I've had a custom built .338 for years. That's what I take now. Problem is I don't shoot'em like I used to. I'm particular. If he isn't where I can pack'em without the frame, I don't shoot. I don't need to shoot like I used to. The kids are grown and gone (don't need the meat like I used to), and I have plenty of young shooters/packers willing to do the dirty (and labor-intensive) deed. I get my meat cheap and easy these days.

The bears are another story. Even though I don't need any bears, I can't wait to nail one with a 250 or 275 grain Swift A-Frame. Well, yeah, I can wait. I can wait for a BIG BEAR.

I'm thinking on a bait station this spring (those times may be coming to an end soon - better get a shot at it while it lasts). Maybe I'll see what 250 grains of .338 A-Frame does at 2700 fps at 50 yards on Mr. Trouble.

Just wanted to chime in with some performance data here for my whelen. Now I have never shot any game with it, and it only became mine last year when my stepfather told me that since I liked it so much I could have it. it is a 35 Whelen Ackley Improved with 26" Douglas barrel. His chronographed load (winchester 06 brass, cci primers, and I believe around 56 grains of 4064) was producing a chronographed 2800fps with 225 grain game kings.

Once I see if I can duplicate his performance using the Rem. 35 whelen brass I bought I am going to work on a load for the 250's and 275's. Hopefully some day it will actually take some game for me.

And by the way, I do love the rifle!

Red

Gee guys,

There has been some very interesting and informative discussion on my post. Thanks for all your responses.

I am still in a quandry however. I already have an 8x57 to take care of all my 30-06 needs and since I also plan to build a small caliber later on down the road, I presently wish to go bigger than the 8x57 to cover larger game. I'm going to investigate the magnum angle of this thread further. My gunsmith mentioned one time that he had a VZ 24 action he built up into a .358 Norma and I may approach him about parting with it. If he's willing to, I'll save the action I have for later and built a .338 WM or a the Norma on the magnum action. Otherwise, I'm going to be forced to go the big bullet in -06 case route, which I imagine would cover most of my large game hunting needs as well as the magnum would. At this point in time, the amount of machine work I would have to pay my gunsmith to perform to convert the 98/22 to a magnum prohibits me from taking that avenue (and the easy way out I suppose). I shoot alot and doubtlessly I could train myself well enough for the proper shot placement in the lighter caliber. And Alaska is still years away... In any event, I plan to buy whatever barrel and the appropriate reloading dies I'll need this summer when the money is a little more right. Until then, I've got lots of other parts and tools to round up. Once again, thank you all for your responses. It was a pleasure opening pandora's box with this one. I appreciate your time fellas.

Thanks,

Tex21

huntsternorth: The largest moose I have seen killed dropped to the .30-06 I mentioned above in another post. I hunt in the interior, in a mountain ridge about 100 miles from Fairbanks. Most cartridges I see with hunters in that area are: .338WM, .30-06, .300WM, and every once in awhile .375H&H (one of my hunting partners brought one with him last year).



I usually stay out of view on high points near large open fields. One of these areas burned to a fire about 15 years ago, so there is plenty of low growth vegetation for moose to eat, between a great number of still standing but dead spruce. When moose step into this area they are relaxed and not aware of my presence, and most times I have enough time to use one of two or tree rifle rests I have constructed from tree branches. I have killed four moose in this area alone, one at 100 yards, one about 200, another about 225 to 250, and last year's about 250 yards.



What has helped me with fast kills has been shot placement, most moose not been aware of my presence, and confidence on the rifle/bullet combination (moose anatomy, keep still and quiet, and let the right bullet do its work).



I have noticed that when a moose (or any large animal) is relaxed when I take the shot, they drop real fast. But if the animal spooks there is a greater chance it will walk 20 to 50 yards unless you break the shoulders or the spine. The largest moose I have killed walked 25 yards after the shot. I had called-in this moose to within 150 yards with a few moose grunts, then it turned to my left through the tress, and stopped behind some brush. All along I could not shoot it because of the tall brush and trees in the way, so I slowly got up from my knees, repositioned the rifle on another branch, and the moose saw me. It immediately moved away through the trees, and all I could see through the scope was its rump. But at about 225 to 250 yards it turned to my right, and just enough for a quartering shot through the right rib cage. The bullet broke a rib and scraped the next as it traveled forward and to the left through the lungs, broke the far shoulder bone, and got stuck on the hide. My hunting partner found it there when we skinned the moose. The bullet barely missed the stomach, and I was very happy about that. It was a cool and dark night, but the spot was about 50 to 75 yards from the trail, and we got two ATV's and a meat trailers right up to the moose. We used four propane lanterns to light the work area. It started raining by midnight, so I opened and hung over the moose, from the trees, a very large tarpaulin. One time my hunting partner was bending over by the edge of the tarp working on the moose, and I decide to stand straight to stretch my back. When I stood, I pushed the trap up, and about a gallon or two of cold water flooded my hunting partners lower back. I was lucky he didn't get mad at me, but I had to laugh when I saw the shock on his face! Shortly after the rain stopped the sky cleared, and we finished the moose under the stars' twinkle and the wolves hauls in the distance.



We started at 10:00 PM, and by 3:00 AM the meat was loaded on the meat trailer. We rode to our campsite, to take a break, cleanup, and to wait for daylight to ride the trail towards the trucks. I arrived to my home at 11:00 AM, dead tired and half asleep, and with hardly any strength left... just enough to hang the meat in a cool garage.

Sounds like a great spot. Even sounds familiar to me. Does 6 Mile Hill ring a bell?

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Not at all, Ray. I know that area, and it sounds like you build a camp like I do. Life is grand out there!

I was in the area last fall, but we camped in that big gravel pit near the highway summit. We took the Argo to the top of the hill next to the highway and glassed down into the river valley. We saw several nice moose from better than 3 miles away.

We drove the Argo to within a mile of where they were hanging out all week (no small task; a wheeler would never make it; those burnt and blown-down pecker pole spruces were like giant matchsticks thrown down on the ground). But we couldn't call them out for a shot (the season closes there too early).

Although there was lots of traffic on the trail, nobody was out where we were. I doubt anybody besides us knew those moose were there.

We never got one, but we still had a great time. Like you, we ate well.