Okay, okay, I know this is highly subjective, and a subject that has been beat to death, but humor me. Using heavy, premium bullets, would you feel confident in stopping a charge if you had to. What would you prefer?

Yes W250gX

i would say its more of a killer and not a stopper.

In my opinion if in the unlikely event that you have to stop a bear charge a 458WM of something similiar is what I would want. For a hunting rifle that will handle all situations in AK and about anywhere else the 340 is definitely near the top of the heap.

Mark

*** " STOPPER " IS THE KEY WORD ***


Per the Dangerous-Game experts of the World , -- a "stopping-rifle" is one classically employed to stop CHARGING Dangerous Game at close ranges ; ( i.e. after the Guide or P.H.'s Client has had a chance to kill the target/trophy animal ) . So , often , by the time the Stopping-Rifle is brought into play , the Animal is wounded , full of adrenaline , and very difficult to "stop " .

To my knowledge , a cartridge is never called a stopping-cartridge , predicated on a Central Nervous System hit .

If you accept the above conditions as designating a true Stopping-cartridge ; -- I believe it is implicit , that time will be very short , and a person wanting such a weapon will expect ONE shot placed into the Center of the Target to get the Stop .

Per Herrero Phd. and other Bear attack Experts , in 95% of Attacks , WHERE CONTACT IS MADE ON THE VICTIM ; -- the Human first sees the Bear within 50 Yds . Charging Bears income at around 35 to 45 FT. PER SECOND !

Under normal probabilities , -- this gives the Shooter one to five SECONDS to stop the Bear.

With Ursus Arctos' reputation for soaking up lead , ( legendary ) , AND intensifying the charge when wounded ; -- I believe that the most conservative concept of a Stopping rifle for these Animals , has to begin at .458 Win. and go up into the .470 NE's and beyond .

You can subtract power , if you will always have good back-up , -- it terms of JEOPARDY .

But in terms of what will do it with one shot to center , --- .458 Win . and up .

Another factor that lends to the confusion , -- is how good are you at placement under the most extreme stress of such a Charge . If you can't hit well under pressure because of recoil/blast , -- you HAVE TO step down to less power .

HOWEVER -----

Unless you are a HIGHLY experienced Guide or P.H. yourself , you probably DON'T KNOW how good you are under that terrible type of pressure . --- You don't want to find out that you don't shine on your first experience .

What those few , Elite , experts , -- ( who have been through enough charges ; -- that they KNOW how good they are ) , choose as their favorite carry piece , is not NECESSARILY what most of us should buy on the rare chance that we might suffer a charge .

I , personally , believe that us Novices should err on the " Enough-Gun " side .

In this world today , there are very few people alive that have survived many D.G. Charges , -- it's a very Elite Club .

No , -- I don't think any .338 made has the bone jarring finality of a true Stopping-Rifle .

------------- MMCOUGAR .

Well if 458win says a 30/06 with 200 partitions or a 7mm mag with a 175 partition will stop a Brown Bear charge if the guy holding it knows how to use it. I would hope to God a 340 Weatherby with 225's or 250's would get the job done. I think bearonia is running wild and free on the Alaska hunting site. Just to add something many people have shot Elephants with a 340 Weatherby and a 7x57 and 8x57. You will have no problems if you can shoot the rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by dakor:
Well if 458win says a 30/06 with 200 partitions or a 7mm mag with a 175 partition will stop a Brown Bear charge if the guy holding it knows how to use it. I would hope to God a 340 Weatherby with 225's or 250's would get the job done. I think bearonia is running wild and free on the Alaska hunting site. Just to add something many people have shot Elephants with a 340 Weatherby and a 7x57 and 8x57. You will have no problems if you can shoot the rifle.

I agree with Dakor on this one. I am not a bear expert of any sort, but read a lot of the subject of stopping bears, and bears in general, including actual accounts of bear encounters. Even dough small cartridges are not considered "stoppers," they have been successfully used for years to stop animals during a charge.

For example, there was a hunter a year or two ago who decided to look for moose on a very windy day. He walked on a trail, and when he passed some large rocks or outcropping, a large grizzly bear charged him at close range. The bear toppled him before he could get ready to fire his .338WM, then ran a few paces away,and turned around on a second charge. The hunter, still on the ground, managed to fire one shot at the bear killing it instantly. He fired his rifle, according to the news, "from the hip."

There have been quite a lot of such cases in Alaska, some which have been lucky shots on the head, neck, spine, etc., and some shot from smaller than .30-caliber rifles.

However, a brown bear was shot two or three times with a .458 at almost point blank, and the bear ran to later be killed by the guide. This bear was by a tent door, and one of the hunters inside shot the bear with his .458 at least twice. The first bullet hit the bear by the jaw, the second hit it on the chest, and then it ran. This example illustrates that as some have mentioned, the .340, nor any so called "stopper," may not stop a bear unless the CNS is lethally disrupted by the shot.

Is the .340 a stopper? Yes, under the right conditions; but then the same can be said by the so called "stoppers" that usually begin with the .416-caliber. However, since I am a big chicken when it comes to the large bears in Alaska, I would prefer at least a .416 with 400-gr (or so) bullets to back my hunting partner or a client. Other than that, the only big game rifle I have and use for all my hunting in Alaska is a Ruger, stainless, in .338WM. I have never hunted bears, but in addition to the heavy bullets I use for moose hunting, I carry some handloads with 275-grain A-Frame bullets "just in case".

Cobrad,

Yes to the first ? and .375 H&H to the 2nd ?.

-Ron

Here are two examples of the difference between a 340 Weatherby and a 375 H&H. I used the data from a 250 A-Frame for the 340 and the data from a 300 A-Frame for the 375 H&H. Looking at all the data the only advantage the 375 has is more Momentum. The 340 has a higher SD and FT-lbs at any range. Also look at the optimal game weight for each. I bet the average Brown Bear is some where around 700lbs. I know this has been beat to death but I would like to hear from some guides or hunters that have actual experiance with bears and see what they think about the 340 as a fight stopper.

i have taken a 10' + brown bear with my .340 wthby and 250 gr. n.p. and a moose with it as well. i feel that it hits like thor's hammer coming out of the clouds.

the moose guide, a 25 year veteran told me it was the fastest kill he ever saw. it could not hit the ground fast enough.

i do think that the .375 would yield better blood flow from a large wound channel though.

I own the 338 RUM and it can get 5000 ft lbs of energy with the 250 gr bullet. I wouldn't use it to stop a brown bear unless I didn't have a choise.

If I had to use any weapon for stopping a coastal grizzly's charge, say while salmon fishing, I'd want an 870 with the biggest slugs I could find. Why? Because a 12 gauge is damn powerful and, more importantly, the 870 is a tactical weapon. With an 18" barrel, it can be pointed and fired very quickly, and it can be reloaded in a jiffy! My second choice would be a Guide Gun with .45/70 "magnum" loads, again for the same reason. I want a powerful & fast-handling gun that accords quick follow-up shots. Big game bolt action rifles are not tactical weapons!

In contrast, if I were hunting coastal grizzlies, I'd feel comfortable using most big game cartridges. There is no doubt in my mind that a 7MM Rem Mag with 175 grain bullets will easily break a grizzly's shoulders. The difference is the time to aim!


Happy New Year,

Tom

You still have to aim a shotgun with slugs. I'll take a well built rifle bullet over a slug anyday.

p dog shooter,

You gotta do what you gotta do.

Actually, I'd prefer a .458 bullet as well, but it is the weapon more than the caliber that I want. In other words, I'd rather have a tactical 870 with 5 slugs than a bolt action .458 Win. Not only can I shoot 5 rounds in an 870 very quickly, but I can reload it in my sleep!

BTW, with an 870 it is more putting the front bead on target than aligning sights as in rifle aiming.

There are very few weapons like an 870. It is the absolute best tactical weapon to which I've been exposed for 95%> of all tactical applications.


Happy New Year,

Tom

quote:

Originally posted by cold zero:
i have taken a 10' + brown bear with my .340 wthby and 250 gr. n.p. and a moose with it as well. i feel that it hits like thor's hammer coming out of the clouds.

the moose guide, a 25 year veteran told me it was the fastest kill he ever saw. it could not hit the ground fast enough.

i do think that the .375 would yield better blood flow from a large wound channel though.

The .340 would probably increase its thump to great proportions with some 275-grain A-frame bullets. The new 250-grain 3-Shock should also penetrate like crazy.

ray;

i don't handload, i used 250 n.p. wthby factory ammo. if i did handload, i would probably use a 300 gr. n.p.. i used the heaviest i could get.

quote:

Originally posted by cold zero:
ray;

i don't handload, i used 250 n.p. wthby factory ammo. if i did handload, i would probably use a 300 gr. n.p.. i used the heaviest i could get.

Woodleigh makes 300 grainers, and maybe Kodiak Bullets.

ray;

i would use either of those. i hear good things about the kodiak's. howeverm i would never use a trophy bonded bear claw. even for shooting n.y.c. rats...

quote:

Originally posted by cold zero:
ray;

i would use either of those. i hear good things about the kodiak's. howeverm i would never use a trophy bonded bear claw. even for shooting n.y.c. rats...

I don't use TB with my .338 because I prefer heavier than 225 grains. Besides, A-Frame bullets are similarly constructed but proven around the world. I like the 250-grain A-Frame, but for some reason I can't drive them as fast as I want out of my stainless Ruger. Maybe there is too much bullet contact with the rifling, but I have killed moose with it at 225 yards or so with great results. I do load the 275 grainers to carry with me while moose hunting.

Now, a bullet that I will start reloading in the Spring is the Barnes 225-grain 3-Shock. If it's accurate enough, I will use it from now on. The previous X versions have not shot well at all from my rifle.

Cobrad ----- I took my Brown Bear with a .300 Winny with a 200 grain Nosler Partition. At the shot three other Bears stood and revealed they were present also, requiring my group to take an additional two Bears immediately or suffer the consequences. That experience prompted me to take a .340 Wby and 250 grain Nosler Partition Gold bullets on my next Alaska hunt in Bear country, I felt much better. I next packed a .358 STA with 270 grain North Forks when I went back to Bear country, I felt even better. Being up close and personal with the big Bears changed my attutude in a hurry, from theory to actual experience was a good teacher. My outlook on the Big Bears now is to pack the largest chambering you can shoot enough to become instinctive in it's use. Good shooting.

I think the best bear stopper is a .600 Overkill loaded with a soft 900 grain hawk bullet at 2400FPS.

quote:

Originally posted by cold zero:
... howeverm i would never use a trophy bonded bear claw. even for shooting n.y.c. rats...

We have had this discussion before and we may just have to agree to disagree; however, that is a pretty blanket statement to make. From what I remember, your experience using TBBCs was rather limited (IIRC, 1 observation of a deer shot at in Alaska that was never followed up on by the guide).

I have now had over 20 big game kills using the TBBC- everything from the western U.S. and Alberta to the far north in Quebec to the sands of Africa with animals weighing from 75 pounds to 750 pounds. I have had great experiences using TBBCs in the 165gr. and 180gr. weights-They all performed perfectly.

I do not aim to change your mind, I am only tired of hearing something that, in my experiences, is clearly not the case.

What I will not use again are the Accubonds at under 100 yards on bone breaking shots, those might serve well on N.Y.C. rats

dakor,

I am a guide here in Alaska and stand by what I posted. When it comes time to put the mustard to a bear I want my .375 H&H not a .340 or an "06" or anything smaller, not that they wont do the job...push comes to shove.

Now, most of the guides I have worked with use .338's of some form (Ultra,WM,340WM), and a large portion of guided and un-guided hunters use the .338's as well. .338's most certainly will kill a big bear cleanly and in short order, charge or not. I just happen to think the .375 does it a better.

By the way, I use 270 gr Failsafes or Barnes for 98% of my duties (always a few 300 grainers on my stock) and looking at the reloading manual the .340 w/250 gr and the .375 w/270 gr are neck to neck with the .375 having a larger dia. and 20 more grains to boot.

Now.....I know where there's a .458 for sale, even comes with a ton of brass.....I keep telling myself that I need it, Ohhh the fun I could have with that gun

-Ron

everybody from the lower 48 worrys about "how Big" a caliber needs to be to kill BB. When I lived in Ak and made my living hunting a 30-06 with 220 gr was the most popular caliber for hunting anything other than sheep in AK. Locals used 270,308,3006 an killed moose an inland as well as Coastals evry year.
IF I had to stop a Coastal it would be with 12ga slugs...we aren't talking 75 yd shots here! Also pistols are worthless, not 1 in 1000 guys can hit anything under REAL pressure with a pistol unless you are pushing the barrel into an earhole.

grizzly1;

don't disagree with you. however, i feel the only advantage that the .375 has, is a larger temporary wound channel than the .340 like you say due to the larger caliber. however, i do not beleive it will out penentrate the .340. you may not get a blood trail with either one on brown bear maybe you can elaborate on that as my experience is limited to one eleven footer. could you p.m. me which outfitter you work with, curious?

c.l.

i have seen n.y.c. rats as big as dogs in the middle of the street at night. i know many a plumber who has been chased out of a basement by a large rat. and yes, they carry lead well. anyway, i digrees.

you have a good memory.

i did see with my own eyes my friend shoot that blacktail in the chest. the guide was afraid to go into the brush after it to recover it as another guide had recently been mauled. so, he instructed my friend to just shoot another one. we went there from oregon where this same fella shot a large columbia blacktail at close range with a .30-.378 wthby with t.b.b.c. and that one too got away. i did not see the shot on that. the scope did cut his nose pretty good though. my s.c.i. chapter has a lot of guys that hunt africa and i have heard many stories about the t.b.b.c. and it's poor performance there. no one in the chapter uses it any more. my friend who wounded the deer uses n.p. and has no complaints now and will not use anything else.

i get one shot kills almost everytime with the n.p. and while it is old technology. it is yet to let me down. when it finally does, then i will make a change. my brown bear took 5 shots, 4 chest, one in the neck. i have complete faith in it and would not use anything else. i take neck shots exclusively, either high in the neck or low in the neck, distance depending. n.p. kills shit dead.

i don't like light weight for caliber bullets either. i whack em. as hard as i can.

if the t.b.b.c. works for you great. continued success with it. that is why baskin robbins makes 51 flavors.

cold zero would you post a picture of your 11 footer. I spent several years working on boats an guiding for that elusive 11 footer VERY FEW TRUE 10 FOOTERS AROUND these days. Biggest boar we ever got was just a shade over 10'

quote:

Originally posted by cobrad:
Okay, okay, I know this is highly subjective, and a subject that has been beat to death, but humor me. Using heavy, premium bullets, would you feel confident in stopping a charge if you had to. What would you prefer?

I would use the Nosler 250 gr bullets at 3035 fps And would aim for his eye if I could hold the rifle streight. That would blow the back of his head off I think. I would really not like to be in that sisuation. I would rather have my Rem 416 and would aim for his head.That would Stop him.

quote:

Originally posted by cats: Also pistols are worthless, not 1 in 1000 guys can hit anything under REAL pressure with a pistol unless you are pushing the barrel into an earhole.

nice to hear someone else say that for a change. i have been saying it for a long time. especially when your life and that of the guide and maybe a packer are on the line. shooter would be more likely to shit his pants than put one in the ten ring under those conditions. most guys take a few shots a year, under ideal conditions with their large caliber hand cannon put it down and think they are rob latham.

now as for the bear. funny you mention it, because we just bought a scanner. since the photos are old, read real film and not digital, not much i could do with them.

p.m. me you email addy and i can email you a couple of photos.

i expect to make a thread in the ak. forum soon once we get the scanner figured out and how to post the photos on the internet. i am computer handicapped, however, my very good looking assistant is going to help me.

b.t.w. the bear was over 20 years old, won numerous awards/articles and i have the kill sequence and the measuring of the hide with no one touching it, streched out on a blue tarp with a tape measure all on video tape. the video is so good, it is like being there, sitting over my shoulder. it was some exciting shit, i will tell you that. since you are from up there, d and c expediters in anchorage said it was the largest hide (not skull) to ever go thru there.

I don't live "up there" anymore though I did spend a good part of my late 20's thru late 30s there working in the hunting field. My son lives "up there now"

I used a .358 Norma MAg to stop and 8ft charging grizzly in B.C i was shooting 250 grain woodleighs and spined him as he was charging. He dropped 10ft away from me and covered fifty feet in a matter of seconds.I also put a few insurance shots in him to make sure he was down for good.

I believe it was Ross Seyfried in one of his writings that said it best: " If God had made a cartridge it would have been the 340 W'by Mag"... Is it a stopper?? That depends on the person behind the rifle! It is nice to have a 375 or a 416 when things get dicy. But perceptions have changed a lot over the years. Some 20 or more years ago, a 30-06 was considered a caliber good enough for just about anything up here. Now, most guides carry bigger calibers and people that come to hunt big bears and other large game almost always have 338s or larger. The guns are all "magnums", the scopes are big and bulky and the recoil being what it is makes hunters that do not practise shooting often enough. But if you know you 340 W'by and use good bullets, there are few things it won't do for you.

Vasa

One of my friends this year bumped into a griz on their 4 wheeler.I dont know if it was trying for food sitting on the trail but it gave them a scare.It was a one eyed blond griz 7'2".It chased them as they went by from behind.They had passed it and had not seen it.They got off their 4 wheelers and were glassing for moose when the heard something coming up the trail.The could not see it till it was about 20 yards.They thought something was wrong when the bear was hitting trees on the way to them.Only one of them had their gun loaded.He shot the first shot through the bears shoulders about 10 yards with a 338 win mag.He then shot and loaded 5 times more and finally stopped it by shooting it in the head.I was doing circles around them after he shot.This was at ranges from 10 to 20 yards.I got the meat from the bear they just wanted the hide.I found one bullet that had lodged in the neck.I found one under the hide of the shoulder.There were two in the spine and a shot through the head.He was using 250 grain bullets.They were all perfict mushrooms.The 338 will kill a gear but unless you break its spine in half or bust him in the head the first shot its not going to stop him in his tracks most likely.I would use Nosler Partition 250 gr.in your 340 weatherby.There was a guide in SE Alaska that was mauled after he shot the bear three times with a 416 rem mag after the guy hre was guiding had shot it with a 300 win mag.Its the first shot that does the most damage but its the last bite that gets your goat.

For me it is physics.
I would not call any caliber under 40 cal with less than a400 grain bullet a STOPPER.
However I had a 340 WBY for a while and really liked it. With 250 grain bullets it hit like a 375 and shot nearly as flat as a 300 Mag.
I used mine with 210 Nosler Partitions to hunt elk in the open.
It just may be the best "medium bore" for North America. I always thought the recoil was less than the 375 H&H's I have owned.

I agree it is a killer I would find it hard to beleive anything in a 30 caliber or even low 40 calibers stopping a large Griz or Coastal with his adrenilin up. However I made a 250 yard shot with a 340 wtby and 225 Barnes on a 9' 3" bear and he only needed the one shot.

I would think with a 300 grain Woodleigh or 275 grain A-Frame, the 340 would be as good as a 375 H + H.

Shot placement is everything.......doesn't matter what your using or what your hunting; .270 or .458. That said...I'll say it again, no .338 cal. (340W, Ultra ect,) ='s the .375 cal or bigger...don't really give a schiznit who says what, how big the bear is ect...I've seen many bears shot with everything between a .270-n-416 (had one huntR use a .460 poorly, 1 of my guideN buds uses an "06" GBHS )...crunch all the numbers you want, the big .375's and bigger (within reason) ARE superior stopper's.

Folks, you can use a 22lr for bear if ya want..I could GAS-bottom line is, you better be able to shoot said cart. from any position in a pinch and with good repeatable accuracy...PERIOD, that's the MOST important factor.

Now comes the fun part (for gun cranks)...... cal, cart. and make of gun. Take your pick and most likely it'll work (within reason)....if'n you do your part!

-Ron

The 340 is a excellent Alaska gun, I had one years ago, but went back too the popular 338 Win. the diffence between the two did not show up on the game I killed, so the expensive brass and more powder burn/recoil of the 340 convinced me to go back too the 338 Win. Plus when in Alaska 338 Win factory ammo is very popular and much cheaper if you do not reload.

Read this, click on the link and see what a 340 weatherby will do to a brown bear. I know this guy personally and the story is scary as hell. Just when you think youve got enough gun all of a sudden you dont!

http://www.deltana.com/information/alaska_brown_bear_hunt.htm

Also keep in mind that Creg is missing most of one of his legs to this day partially caused by the bear and partially caused by his buddy trying to kill the bear mauling his buddy.

Exciting article, and one I have read before. After much consideration, my rifle is being converted to .358 STA. I am also expecting delivery of .458 Win mag later this week. Always wanted a reason to try a big bore. This is as good as any.