I am thinking about buying my first big bore rifle. I have never shot one and can't seem to borrow one to test fire. I suspect I will be more recoil sensitive than most thanks to a 30 year old right shoulder injury that stands as a monument to my lack of skill when playing football. To keep the discussion simple I have picked five calibers, four of which I think will easily rank themselves low to high recoil. They are .338 Win Mag, .375 H&H Mag, 416 Rem Mag, and 458 Win Mag. I'll throw in a Marlin .45-70 just to stir the pot. I have two questions. Assuming I want to buy the largest caliber I can learn to shoot well, where are the big step ups in recoil? Can this be quantified? Are there any reliable charts or tables comparing recoil, say as measured in ft/lbs. You will rightly ask what I intend to do with this rifle. I'd rather not mention that for fear of a digression into the well worn threads addressing the best caliber for this or that animal.I hope you will humor me. Additionally, how helpful are attempts to reduce recoil, such as Weatherby's Accubrake and other gunsmithing interventions. Thanks so much for any help.

I would put recoil at 45-70 then 338 then 375 then 416 and 458.

I have shot all of the above and owned all but a 416.

They are all manageable cartridges provided they are shot in rifles of appropriate weight.

Not knowing what you are using it for I would say if you can get by with a 338 go with it or the 375h-h.

You might find it helpful to go to handloads.com and take a look at the recoil calculator for some comparison figures.

Wallace, i have also owned all the calibers you mentioned and it really depends on the weight of the rifle but i will tell you my thoughts. Lowest recoil for ME would be the 375 then 338 then 45-70,416 and highest 458. I am going by this with shooting the 45-70 in a marlin guide gun with buffalo bore ammo. if you were to use cowboy loads i would rate it from lowest to highest as 45-70,375,338,416 and 458. Hope this helps

I have often wondered why data on recoil is not more readily available. In a field where it is so easy to quantify information, little hard information in easily understood format seems to be available on recoil. For example, how effective are various recoil reduction schemes? There are many types of devices and all assert spectacular success but darned little hard information is ever presented.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/faqs.html

Saeed has done a nice job putting together some information on this. Try the above link - I think it will take you there.

AR has a recoil comparison chart found off of the home page.

Without knowing more, you may have trouble handling the recoil of a standard weight '06 w/ a stout load (20+ ft-lbs)

Bread and Butter/All-Around Medium Bores:
'06, 338WM, 375H&H

All Around Big Bore:
416Rem

Alternative/Good Power for Recoil:
35Whelen/350RM, 9.3x62, 375-338WM, 416Taylor, 404Jeffery and others.

To underscore rifle weight, I have an M94 that weighs under 6.5LBS shooting 450Marlin/Northfork handloads. Its recoil is right up there w/ my 458WM (over 50ft-lbs).

Thanks for all the answers. The chart by Saeed is exactly what I was looking for. My primary hunting rifle is a Tikka 6.5x55, chosen for its inherent accuracy and low recoil. So I can use his numbers for that rifle to get a handle on other calibers. I would say that the .338 Win Mag has four times more recoil and is probably about all I could handle. Being able to get in enough practice rounds is obviously critical.
I read that rifle brake systems are a no-no. The extremely loud report makes them illegal in some African countries and not allowed as a matter of policy by many NA guides. Is this true?
So now the truth. I have taken a medium sized New England Black bear with my 6.5x55 and a 140 gr Nossler Partition. I was able to make a single lethal shot because I am so comfortable and confident when using that Rifle. As Yogi might say "90 % of hunting is mental, and the other half is the rifle". So I am thinking of moving up to an Alaska sized Black bear. I've lurked about on this board for months. Lots of smart, experienced folks here. I've formed the opinion that the .338 would be acceptable, if not ideal, to most posters here. I won't go until I feel almost as confident with a .338 (which may never happen) as I do with my Tikka. Again, thanks for all the sound advice
Wally

Charts are a good place to start but they are only a common sense guide. There are many factors to recoil. Stock design, recoil pad, gun weight, bullet weight....they all make a big difference. I have a 416 that kicks the hell out of me with the factory wood stock. I put a plastic stock on it that weighs less and it is easier to shoot. Most people would think that the lighter stock would make the problem worse...but it is a better design, has a different LOP and recoil pad...all adds up to less felt recoil. The only way to be sure if you can handle a gun is to shoot it. Good luck and don't give up that sweede!

Wallace more elephants have been killed with
the 7 X 57 mauser than any other cartridge. Your example is one that most of us already know. Shoot what your comfortable with using a premium bullet and everything else is academic.
I took a 300 pound (average Alaskan) BLACK BEAR last year with a .358 Win and 180 grain bullet in a handgun. Every post here is very sound advice.
Take your time and work your way up to where you know what you can handle. Only you will truely know.

Do I understand right that you are looking at shooting an Alaska Black bear?

If so your 6.5x55 would be just as good on an Alaska black bear as it is on a New England black bear. JMHO.

The biggest factor in felt recoil is the weight of the rifle and it's "fit" to you. If you mount and hold it properly and the rifle is of appropriate weight to it's caliber then recoil isn't half as bad as many proclaim.

Your shoulder injury complicates things. I'd say the .375 is your best bet and will give you modest recoil and yet plenty of thump to cover most any chore. Believe it or not my Ruger MkII .338 Win had a sharp recoil that was more unpleasant than my RSM in .375 H&H. The .338 wasn't a lightweight rifle either (in the 9 pound range I'd guess), but not quite as heavy as the .375 is (10 lbs 3 ounces loaded).

You may need to avoid benchrest shooting also with that shoulder of yours, especially if you do want to go with the .416 or .458's.

Most .338's are lighter than a 7Mag. They use the same barrel profile, but a .338 hole makes it lighter. The .375's usually use a nice heavy barrel of about .675 muzzle diameter so they weigh 9 pounds or so. I've always thought the .375 was more pleasant to shoot than a .338WM. That said, I think the 9.3x62 would be better with someone who has a shoulder injury. My son shot my CZ 9.3x2 with 286 grain loads when he was 13 or 14, never complained at all. These will step out at 2400-almost 2500 fps with 286's in good handloads.

quote:

I was able to make a single lethal shot because I am so comfortable and confident when using that Rifle. As Yogi might say "90 % of hunting is mental, and the other half is the rifle".

I'd never seriously try to dissuade anyone from getting a new rifle, but I do winder why you'd bother. Unless you're going to be taking a big brownie or some of the African stomp-back critters, your 6.5x55 will work just fine for everything else. you know you can put the bullet where it belongs, so all else is aesthetics.

For example, my wife uses her .270 on everything, and has taken critters from musk ox size on down to javelina sized critters. The 6.5 would do the same.

What about a 338-06, 35 whelen, 375-06 or a 325wsm. Most of the time you do not need a super magnum just a little more bullet weight and frontal area to kill bigger stuff.

I'm glad I checked back to this thread. Some good new comments. I guess I just assumed Alaskan Black Bears were an order of magnitude bigger than a New Hampshire or Maine BB. And in all honesty I really don't know the average weight of these bears. I need to check into this. I think that also somewhere in the back of my mind was the idea that when you go hunting for a BB in New England the worst thing you may encounter is a BB, whereas in Alaska there are two other worrisome possibilities. I guess I should take some responsibility for defending myself and not leave it all up to the PH, not to mention that he deserves some backup as well

Things to consider. I would always carry more gun than needed if brown bear are in the range I am hunting.

I can tell you I regret buying my .340 Weatherby for my big gun when I could have gotten a nice .375 H&H for the same price. The .375 is just more versatile.

My vote for your big gun is a .375 H&H. Why? Most common big bore, reasonable recoil for its size, less expensive ammo, and well excepted in both Africa and Alaska.

WG,
From your initial post, it seems that your past injury might cause a problem with you handling recoil. If you're after something with a bit more frontal area, making it a bit faster, not necessarily better, killer than your 6.5, you might consider Dakor's suggestion.

Of the biggies you mention, the .375 has a bit less annoying recoil than the others. Big non-magnums, such as the .35 Whelen (or others) are even less of a bounce, yet deliver some real hammer blows to whatever gets in front.

You mention the chance of bumping into big browns while hunting Alaskan black bears. The Whelen isn't necessarily my first choice when it comes to brown bear rifles, but I assure you that the bullets won't bounce off! Practice, such as you have with the 6.5 will pay off anywhere.

quote:

Originally posted by Hunt4Life:
Things to consider. I would always carry more gun than needed if brown bear are in the range I am hunting.

I can tell you I regret buying my .340 Weatherby for my big gun when I could have gotten a nice .375 H&H for the same price. The .375 is just more versatile.

My vote for your big gun is a .375 H&H. Why? Most common big bore, reasonable recoil for its size, less expensive ammo, and well excepted in both Africa and Alaska.

__________

Well said and enuff said. The .375 H&H is a queen and will never leave you wanting, assuming you do your part.

DB

*** THUMP ***

Just some thoughts : --- Judging from the range of cartridges you threw out there ; -- you don't have to name the specific Critter , you have already sketched in the rough outlines .

IMHO , you're wise to suspect that most of those Thumpers could cause a severe flinch , -- which is antithesis to accuracy , -- and especially
" accuracy under stress " .

Flinches , according to my rememberances are a " Brain-Thing " , and have little to do with your attitude , degree of Macho , or body-weight .

-- At some level of thump , your brain say's , " O.K. , that's enough of that shit " , -- ( just like shell-shock in combat ) ; and boogaloo , you've got a flinch , which can be very difficult to get rid of , permanently . -- ( And you sure as hell , don't want that baby rearing it's ugly head , when an 800 lb. Sabertooth Tiger is incoming at 40 MPH .

I would say , first , identify the game and CIRCUMSTANCES , that would represent a worst scenario .

Then read up on what the very most authentic and experienced experts recommend as ideal for that worst scenario . -- Stay away from Forum opinions and Sporting Goods Store Cowboys , -- unless you know for a fact they have hundreds of head of big game down , -- i.e. " Field Experience " , is the only thing to listen to .

If you absolutely can't get some heavy-recoiling rifle time in , without buying a new piece , -- Go ahead and buy as close as you can afford to that Ideal Cartridge , in a Rifle of your favorite action-type .

In fact , it may be a good approach not to try to " experience " heavy recoil up front as an experiment , -- because you might develop your flinch in the first few rounds , if it's terrible enough .

And try to choose a cartridge that is VERSITILE , in the sense of having a fairly flat trajectory in case your shot is out there beyond 200 , yet powerful enough to give you " Stopping Power " ; ( in case your quarry turns out to be charging Dangerous-Game ) .

And I'd always choose the " Classic " cartridge , if the choice was close . -- They don't get to be classics by letting experienced Hunters down .

My personal choice for such purpose is the .375 H&H , -- but only with 300 Gr. pills , in Swift A-Frame bullets . ( Remington makes it in nickle plated case , -- it's a beautiful cartridge .

Once purchased , there's lots of things you can do to fine tune recoil , -- if you got some bucks to invest .

You should reload , to start experimenting . -- You can load (e.g.) the .375 down to where it kicks like a warm .30-06 . or up into the full magnum range , -- big difference in felt recoil at the shoulder .

I've got a Mod. 70 with a 19" ( altered ) barrel and a Mag-Na-Port job . -- With the porting job it feels to me like a factory 180 Gr. , .30-06 .

But Beartooth Bullet's website also has a simple calculator , that will give you ft./lbs. of recoil , ( if I remember right ) .

I've got two rifles with Mag-Na-Port , ( the other is a Browning Lever .358 Win . ) ; and the thing I like about them is that the hotter the loading , and greater the pressure , the more the porting reduces recoil AND muzzle lift . -- It's expensive , -- but I sure am high on the device ; -- and it doesn't look like a tin can soldered to the end of , an otherwise , nice looking rifle .

I do not think the .375 H&H is enough gun , for charging Grizzly , however .
I'd seriously consider .458 Win. Soft Point , for that specific endeavor .

I've never shot a stock with the Mercury gadgets installed , -- but I've read they work good .

And , from what I've read and discussed with the technical types , -- perceived recoil is not just the actual foot-pounds at the shoulder ; -- it's how those foot pounds are DELIVERED to the shoulder , ( over what time period ? , -- the DURATION of the push ? , and if the foot-pounds are all bunched up during one part of the recoil time span , -- or spread out more ? -- etc. etc. ) .

And stock design has a lot to do with recoil . I'd stay away from straight stocks with no pistol grip , in a heavy recoiling rifle .

Lots of luck on your choice , ( let us know what you choose ) , and remember what old Rouark (sp.? ) said , -- first priority is to " use enough gun " , if it's a dangerous critter .

----------------------------- MMCOUGAR .

quote:

I do not think the .375 H&H is enough gun , for charging Grizzly , however .
I'd seriously consider .458 Win. Soft Point , for that specific endeavor

So now on AR a 375 H&H which has killed charging cape Buff and Elephants is not big enough for a Brown Bear? I thought I had read it all. Well if you look at the ballistics between a 375 H&H and a 458win if the 375 is not going to get it done the 458 is not either. You better step it up to a 470 Nitro or a 50BMG. Bearanoia is running wild again. Or you could just use a 30/06 with good 200gr bullets and if one does charge you which from what I have heard from most guides is rare shoot it in the head or chest and call it a day. I wonder how the old timers killed bears with 30/30's and such. Bears must have evolved in to bulletproof machines since the early 1900's.

A 375 H&H isn't a 100% stopper, There is more than enough data from Africa and Alaska to show that the 375 H&H is almost enough, but not always enough. With proper shot placement, a 458 is always enough, and is the same power as a 470 NE.

Paul I am glad you brought up proper shot placement because one guide on here who lives with bears claims a 30/06 on up is enough to stop a charge. So I would think a 375 H&H with 300gr bullets is enough all the time if the guy holding it knows how to use it. Its pretty simple with anything you use either bust bone or shoot them in the head or you are in for a long day. I have read reports of a 458win not being enough for cape buff when charging. But I watched Saeed stop a few of them with his 375-404. It all goes back to the guy behind the gun.

*** ENOUGH GUN ? ***

( Pause ) , ..... Well , come to think of it , -- the subject at hand was recoil related .

Several thoughts at this point in the thread ; -- one is a consensus of many articles and books , and , indeed , much expert opinion in this Forum , from other Threads , and from the African contingent .

-- E.G. , when Dangerous Game is on the menu , use the largest , heaviest bulleted cartridge THAT YOU CAN SHOOT WELL .

Being able to shoot it well is a recoil related concept to my opinion .

Second , -- Ursus Arctos is legendary for its ability to soak up lead when pumping adrenaline ; -- many many documented accounts of multiple boiler room hits by .30-06 , .338 Mag. , being shrugged off by Ol' Ephriam . --- This would DICTATE a prudent hunter or outdoorsman to hike , -- " loaded for Bear " , -- not out of paranoia , but out of rational survival preparation .

I was fortunate to be on a thread several years ago , with the managing editor of " Bear Hunting Magazine " . To the same question being raised here , he opined that .458 Win / a la 500 Gr. Softpoint , , -- " was about as good as it gets " , ( for STOPPING frontal Brown Bear Charges ) . -- Phil Shoemaker , speaks highly of it for the same purpose .

The caliber , power , and the heavy recoil that comes with it is , NECESSARY , I would suggest , to handle the circumstances .

The circumstances are that 95% of all Bear Attacks where contact is made , ( per Herrero , Phd . Biologist & Ursus Behavior authority ) ; occur when the Human first sees the Bear within 50 Yds. -- Since Ursus charges at 37 to 40 MPH , -- that leaves One to Five seconds to stop the Bear . -- A high percent of the 95 , occurs much closer , often at 30 Yds. and in .

That means that of Bear Attacks where contact is made , odds-on you will be lucky to get one round to center of mass , before contact ruins all of your plans .

It's true that few humans , historically , die of Bear Attack . -- But it is also true that , especially since outright protection of the Species ; -- that Bear Attacks are on the increase , big time .

And least we forget , -- a hunter with blood and food smells around camp , and often chasing and wounding the damn things ; -- is at lots more jeopardy , than your average pilgrim .

The above poop , is , as far as I can tell, fact , -- not " Bearanoia " .

However , if " Bearanoia " is the spin you wish to place on it ; -- for all I care , you can pack a .22 Rimfire with you , forever .

But beyond that , .... better Baranoid than not " Having Enough Gun " .

----------------------- MMCOUGAR .

Recoil is a very personal issue. I love my Sako 375 H&H....that being said, I was scared to shoot it at first because it is one of the lightest rifles I own (8.2 lbs w/scope and sling). Turns out it is very manageable--thumps you much less than you would expect.(Somehow my old Ruger 77 in 30-06 always does the opposite!) Take a careful look at stock dimensions, too. The 375 is commonly built as a safari-type rifle, with more area on the recoil pad--built for a rifle that will kick and to help you manage it. The 338, however, may be just another barrel on the lightest, cheapest stocked-rifle the company makes......my $.02.

Happy Shooting,

Dan

Recoil is something that is very personal to each individual shooter. I believe that the charts earlier in this thread are very helpful to determining the recoil of various calibers, but there is no substitute for actually shooting the gun you are thinking of acquiring and determining whether the recoil is too much for you. Protect yourself on the bench so as not to develop a flinch(use sand bags or a sled or whatever) and you will find that the recoil shooting even a big boomer in the field or in the bush is non-existent. A couple of interesting websites: The first is a recoil calculator for any caliber and load: www.huntamerica.com/recoil_calculator. The second is a very interesting set of calculations by Chuck Hawks which will show you that when we are shooting ducks and geese with our favorite twelve guage using three inch sheels at moderate velocities (under 1300 fps) the recoil is actually greater and sharper than from many of the "big boomers" in the rifle category. Yet, no one ever thinks twice about shooting a box or more out of these guns several times a week (if we are lucky enough to be able to hunt ducks and geese that much www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_recoil_table.htm. Take care all, EB

When it come's to recoil. There's a number of things that will affect how a gun will recoil.

Fit to the shooter is a very big issue.
Weight

barrel length makes a lot of difference.

balance is another. IF muzzle heavy it's very probable to both kick you in the face and kick harder too.

A good pad will help a lot.

IF all these are correct and it still kicks too damned much. Go into adding mercury reducers. They are made in several sizes for the butt and forearm both. Just remember to keep it in balance when adding these things.

My old '17 Enfield kicked like hell when it was dressed down to barely 7# with a tiny butt end w/steel plate.

The same gun built up to a full 10#, padded, nice fitting stock, 26" barrel and now a .300Win/M don't kick near as much as the same gun did as above. Most that shoot it can't believe how nice it behave's.

You guys in the north brush country wouldn't want a 26" barrel because it's slower. but, it sure helps control the recoil and muzzle blast.

BUT: it just might be the muzzle blast helps in controlling a nasty tempered bear too. Has anyone been in front of one of these big guns w/short barrels when they went off? Can you still hear your own farts??????

George

George

Everything is true on what you say. However when one is point blank with an animal that has every intention of reducing you to a bear pile who stops to check their own farts? Can't honestly answer that one.

Hehe!

I'll damned sure agree on that.
Caliber and recoil wouldn't matter much either long as they are both plenty big enough to do the J O B.

Right?

BUT:

I was asking that in reference to after being in front of one of these big bores when they went off. After the blast, "can you still hear your own farts" OR: are you deafer than a damned rock forever like I am?

Guess what I'm wanting to know is: "does the horendous muzzle blasts itself have effect in stopping, or turning these nasty tempered bears?"

Maybe Phil Shoemaker could answer this one. He's got lots of charging bear experience and quite a few where he fired into the dirt in front of them.
Phil: Do you feel the blast helps change their minds when they are not hit??

Smile, I am!

George

quote:

evaluating differences in recoil

When evaluating differences in recoil there is only one meaningful way to do it. Shoot the gun! There are lots of computing programs that will tell you the value of recoil in foot pounds. They are in no way useful in my opinion because you can’t equate that value into a physical experience. Each person has a different threshold when it comes to something like this. I know big strapping guys you’d think could deal with any rifle and at about 3oo Magnum their done. So if you haven’t shot it my feeling says don’t buy it. Further more if you can find one to shoot if you can’t put about 10 rounds through it step down. You’re going to be thinking more about the gun punishing you than concentrating on your shooting.

Wallace,

If I were you I would seriously consider a .375 H&H in a CRF rifle. I have 2, a M70 Stainless and a M70 Safari Express. They are both very manageable as far as recoil. From a standing position I don't really notice the recoil being any worse than my 12 ga when shooting trap. When shooting from the bench a Past recoil pad or a bag of sand or even a shot bag full of styrofoam peanuts helps tremendously.

I also have a M1895 Guide Gun and have shot my hunting partner's Remington AWR in .338 Win Mag quite a bit. I find them both to be more objectionable as far as recoil (when shooting heavy bullets, 400gr and up in the 45-70 and 250grs in the .338) than the .375s. The AWR and the Guide Gun are both very light rifles and to me at least have a very sharp, fast recoil whereas the .375 is more of a hard shove much like a shotgun.

In spite of your injury I would say that if you can shoot a 12 ga shotgun comfortably you should be able to handle a .338 or .375 class rifle. When you go up into the .40 caliber and above rifles (.416 Rem, .458 Win, .458 Lott, etc.) the recoil generated is in a different league from the medium bores.

The muzzleblast from the big bores isn't any worse than a small or medium bore magnum, and I'd venture to say the various ultra and super magnum small and medium bores have more obejctionable muzzle blast than the big bores.

As to recoil, you won't feel it at all in the heat of the shot, no matter how big the round.

The important part is that you will shoot the gun the way you have practiced with it, as there is no time to think about how you'll shoot. If you don't practice with the gun, you'll shoot it like you haven't practiced with it. If you shoot it enough so that you "become one with it" you'll shoot that way. The trouble is the big bores have enough recoil so that shooting enough to "become with it" is serious work, and if you develop a flinch, flinch you will when you need to make the shot count.

40 caliber on up dish out serious recoil that the non-serious shooter won't put in enough practice to become proficient with, plane and simple. 375 on down can be shot with total disregard to recoil with a moderate amount of practice.