I had this picture saved from the Nickudu files. Is this him Allen?







Chuck

I was reading your wonderful article again about your rifle. Would you mind telling us a little history behind it like how you got the idea for it and why you like it so much? Why did you pick 458 over other popular Alaskan calibers like 375 or 338? Thanks for your time, I'm sure there is alot to tell about the gun and I hope we will get to hear a little about it.
Matt

I remember reading this story in Rifle magazine, have it somewhere and if I find I will let know which issue. However it was a good story and hope it is retold here.

Mr Shoemaker

I dont mean to high jack this thread, i was just wondering how those Simmons waders were working out? Would they be your first recomendation for a hip wader?

Shiloh, I also read Phil's piece about old ugly and if i remember correctly he chose the .458win because it is a much better "stopper" of large, angry, critters, and who could argue with 500grs of smashing power.I also remember him writing that he just sprays it with rustoleum paint when it needs it, hey, what ever works!

I'VE BEEN using Brownells Krinkle paint for years on my heavy use rifles.
I have a Win model 70 in .375H&H and under the 20 year old paint job the bluing is like new.
It is thicker then regular paint so it not only provides weather/moisture protection, it also gives some dent and ding protection.
Good stuff and it also provides a nonslip surface for grabbing.

I think I wrote a full report on my .458 in Rifle magazine number 101. I had given up on my .375 as Nosler had quit making partitions and we didn't have all the great bullets we do now. I used a 30-06 with 200 gr Partitions at 2700fps for a while but about got chewed on by an angry, wounded brown bear so wanted something bigger. I knew that the .338 did not kill noticibly any faster than my 06 and The .458 was avaliable in MK X barreled actions at reasonable prices so I built one up to fit me. In the past nineteen seasons I have had to shoot a lot of wounded big bears - including one a month ago - and as long as I hit them solidly they go right down. It can be downloaded somewhat using 400 grain bullets at 2150 to 2200 fps and still matches the old .404 ballistics and is still very effective.

I happen to be at the public library in Naknek, AK and right now our satellite is down so I am stuck here awhile so will answer the other question about my Simms waders. I still love them. They are expensive but mine have outlasted a couple of pairs of ankle-fit hip waders and I can even sit in puddles and stay dry. I wear them with New Balance running shoes and they are super light.

When you visit the outhouse in Phil' s base camp there is no doubt that you are in bear country. He keeps a loaded 416 Rigby standing in the corner.



This one is similar to some of the other rifles of his - its painted with wing walk paint. The rifle won't slip out of your hand very easily.

Phil

Thanks for your reply, after i wrote to you i realized that the company is Simms and not Simmons, oh well, im going to hunt the Mulchatna herd and thought a good light-weight wader could be beneficial.

I was kind of surprised to see Ross Seyfried's piece in Rifle, putting down the .458 win, it seems to me that there are no flies on the 458 and a person could do much worse in cartridge selection.Heck even guys shooting hot 45-70 loads(garret) can take DG quite effectively. Have a good one guys.

Seyfried should stick to writing about stuff he has some clue about.

Chuck

I think Ross Seyfried's comments about the 458 win mag for use in Africa on thick skinned game are spot on. The case is simply too small to allow a 500 gr bullet to be driven 2150 fps at reasonable pressures in temperate climates.

That said, while the 458 win mag has been justly maligned for African use, it has also been equally ignored for use on NA game. I still contend a 350 gr pill at 2400-2500 fps is enough for any NA game, and at a recoil level that is on par with the 375 H&H driving 300 gr pills the same speed.

Seyfried should stick to writing about stuff he has some clue about!

Chuck

Paul,

I understand your point regarding the ignored .458 on NA game but am confused when the .458 is termed "justly maligned" for African game.

If you will forgive this question in the Alaska hunting forum, what is wrong with a 350 grain .458 round at the same velocity as a 300 grain .375 round for African game?

I have only shot two lions, a zebra, some warthogs and plains game (all soft skins) with my .458 to date but I plan to take it to Tanzania for buff in a couple months.

350 grain Barnes X bullets at 2480 fps are accurate in my rifle and have minimal recoil.

Do you believe 350 grain .458 bullets cross below some line of safety for buff? Why?

the 458 Win is a great bear gun, but bear are soft skinned compared to a Cape buffalo or elephant...

The only place I have heard or seen any failures with the 458 is on elephant with "factory ammo"...A good handload seems to cure that problem..If I were to shoot a .458 I would use a 450 gr. Barnes X or GS customs flat nose at about 2200 FPS and be happy as a church mouse...

That said the 458 should have been a 458 Lott form the start, it would have simply been a better cartridge. It has suffered from compaction and misfires and has a reputation of tieing up in the heat according to the Zimbabwe game dept, so they used handloads I am told and had no further problems....That said I have never seen a 458 Win. solid fail on a buffalo nor a soft fail on a Lion...

Come to think of it, nothing much fails if the first shot is stuck in the right spot...

I haven't taken any thick skinned African game with a 458, but based on the tried and true combinations used on such game, a 350 gr bullet is too light from a 45 caliber rifle to provide sufficient penetration.

I would also question the use of the 450 gr X bullet, as it is a very long bullet. A 450 gr X seated to the canalure in a 458 Lott case has the same powder capacity as a 500 gr FMJ hornady seated to the canalure in a 458 win mag case.

Thanks for your thoughts Paul.

As a thick headed German/Swede from Missouri I am going to try it anyway - too far across the stream to switch horses now.

I'll let you know how it works out.

Allen,
A 350 "BarnesX" should have the same SD as a 400 or perhaps a 450 gr. regular bullet and the BarnesX bullets have a heck of a lot of penitration so I suspect it will work on Buffalo although I personally would prefer more weight I think, but don't know because I have not used the 350 nor seen it used....I would want only a broadside shot.

If that is what you used on the bison and bear then you probably have a better idea than any of us how it works, and bison are thicker, larger and tougher than cape buffalo at times, but not as mean...

I would suggest you back up "any expanding bullet" with a good solid on Cape Buffalo......

I have a friend who met Capstick a couple of times. Whenever PHC comes up in conversation, my friend notes that "He was a great...writer."

And so he was.

Chuck, that's the one! Thanks!

AD

Mr Shoemaker,

I want to say I thoroughly enjoyed your article on Ole Ugly. I've always been an admirer of "workhorse" guns rather than those pretty things that look like they rarely see the outside of a gun safe. My hunting rifles are well maintained but they soon show their wear as they get used and carried alot or I usually don't keep them around long.

Some day if you get the time I'd love to see some more detailed pics of your .458 if don't mind. Also would you share some favorite load info for the .458? I recall you used the 500gr Hornady extensively over 3031 then more recently went to a 400gr Bearclaw was it? What load are you now using with the 400's if you don't mind sharing?

Looking forward to more of your articles... Stay safe out there in the bush.

458Win

Did you get the PM I sent awhile back, how is the fishin.

HBH

Phil,

Would you mind shooting me an email when you get the opportunity, I have something I would like to discuss with you.

Thanks,

Doug
dwpva@biggamehuntinggear.com

I have recently been using 79 grs. of AA 2200 behind a 400 Barnes X and 80 grs. behind the 400 Gr. Kodiak bullet for between 2250 and 2300fps (depending on the bullets - the X's are typically slower) Both work well. I had to kill a bear this May at 175 yds and my X penetrated both shoulders and was under the off-side hide.

Phil,

Thank you for the info... I want to ask you also if that AA2200 load and the 400gr bullet is with magnum or standard primers?

About the 500gr Hornady RN .458, how heavy is the jacket? Did you ever have a chance to measure it or would you have a guess at it's thickness? How well does it hold up on heavy animals? I've heard Hornady's 500gr solid has a very good reputation as a tough bullet, but I haven't heard much about the softnose 500gr. Does it hold together well, etc?

Good to see you here at the forum Phil, this site is one of the best I have seen.

I use magnum primers with my .458 loads but have also tried standard primers and can't see they make much difference. The 500 Hornady soft nose is a tough bullet. Certainly enough for the original Winchester ballistics but the ones I have been using in factory 458 Lott ammo tend to break apart at close range.

Since everyone has weighed in on the 458 I might as well give my 2 cents. It's hard to not like a rifle that kills your first elephant and buffalo with one solid each. The buffalo was hit in the right hip going away and the bullet penetrated the gut, blew the liver apart and was found in the chest after it penetrated the lungs. The elephant was a textbook heart shot and the bull ran 40 yd. and collapsed.

Also as Paul H said the 458 with the 350X is a fine combo for moderate range NA game shooting. It lacks a little penetration but boy does it chop a hole in a moose.

I understand all the theoretical and historical reasons that people have given for not choosing the 458 WM but the reality is that it works extremely well with the best of modern factory ammo and carefully built handloads. In fact I'm taking mine with me Sunday on my elephant hunt.

Regards,

Mark