Wanted to start a new thread for a new train of thought and discussion.

1. Counting Points - Alaska Style. Going back to Dave's Kodiak buck and Mark's comment on 4 points. How do other folks count points. I have never counted eye guards, but some (most?) folks do. For instance, I have never called a forked horn w/eye guards a 3-pointer. I true 4-pointer has to be a double-forked horn - i.e. each primary fork branching again. I have hunted 25 years and never seen (myself) or shot a true 4x4, or better.

2. Big Bucks this year (real and rumored.) I saw a picture of an 8x5 shot by a guy from Saxman, near Ketchikan. This probably includes eyeguards, but estimated to weigh 240 lbs. I can find the electronic copy of the article (Ketchikan Daily News - Nov. 6th) but not an image. Can someone from Ketchikan post it? Also heard of a 5x5 taken in the Hoonah area going 225# on the hoof.

3. Ruby Red Antlers. What causes this coloration? - like a ruby red grapefruit. I saw one last year from the Tenakee Inlet area and Big Stick posted a pic of one from southern SE a couple of years ago. I know the golden/yellow comes from rubbing alders and brownish from rubbing pines/cedar/spruce/hemlock. Not certain if this color is genetics or rubbing on a specific type of vegitation. Anyone know?

[ 11-20-2003, 22:20: Message edited by: Lars G ]

Lars,

I migrated to AK over 20 years ago from Maine where they always count all the points including the eye guards. I believe this is the common way of doing it in most of the Eastern US and Texas. Since I've been in AK I have used the normal western method of only counting the G-2's upward rather than starting with the G-1's(eye guards).

I agree that an honest 4x4 in a sitka deer is rare. I personally shot one and the G-2's split to make the G-3 on both sides just like a normal mule deer.

The live weights that you quoted are way bigger than anything I ever saw. My biggest buck probably weighed 160-175 lb. on the hoof.

1. Everybody is a creature of their environment and subject to local nomenclature.

My definition concurs with Lars.

2. Absolutely the best year I've seen for Bruiser Bucks. I attribute it to multiple fair Winters in SE.

I've killed two this year,I know for certain eclipsed 200lbs on the hoof. Would also comment that the average body size this year,borders on the spectacular.

Couldn't speculate as to why they seem to be of outlandish size,other than the grubbing was good,though not inordinate IMHO.

3. The Ruby Red in my locale,I attribute to their penchant for rubbing Alders. Big Alders. It is a natural stain like few others.

Genes are of zero influence in my opinion,regarding that particular deviation.

Have seen multi B&C Contenders slain this year and they'll still be falling prey for a coupla weeks. Does are still hot,the Rut is in full swing and there is fresh snow.

Such things tend to produce Bruisers...............

[ 11-22-2003, 08:29: Message edited by: RMiller ]

Lars, as a hard core whitetail hunter for over twenty years (I've killed over 100) it has taken me a while to get used to the way we count points on our blacktails. But, that said, I've been taught that the "proper" method is the one you use.

I'm a wildlife biologist and have done a fair amount of study on antlers - all on whitetails - but I cant believe blacktails coloration variability doesn't follow the same pattern. It seems that there is some natural genetic variation in color, but most coloration is influenced by what the local soils are and what the bucks rub their antlers on.

Nice velvet buck in the other thread; tell me something about your #1 - I'm quite a fan of single shots, but get a little nervous carrying one around here during deer season (especially August); I hate the thought of running into brownie with only one quick shot available.

Just getting back to folks and their comments.

First of all, glad to hear that I count points the "right" way. Probably only this way in Alaska. The reason I asked the question in the first place was because of a guy I work with. Now he is a darn good hunter and has shot a lot of big deer. I told him I had never shot a 4-pointer. He said, "aw hell, I got boxes of 4-pointers at home." I that point I had to call B.S. - he admitted to counting eye guards as points. I did not think this was the local practice anywhere in Alaska, but wanted to check it out.

In reply to "Antlers" - That #1B is a gun that I've had for some time. Started life as a .30-06 factory chambering. I rechambered it to .30 Gibbs ('06 super-improved) after I was comfortable handloading. It does 2,750-2800 fps with 200 grainers and 2,950 to 3,000 fps with 180 grainers.

This is not a rifle I normally take on the big islands with brown bears. I do hunt the smaller islands (Douglas, Shelter, Lincoln, etc.) with it on a regular basis. That velvet buck was on Admiralty. It got the nod for this particular hunt as it was already sighted in and I had good load worked up. I usually take a .338 or .375-338 in brownie country. IMO, August is not a month to worry about brownies in the high-country. They are down on the streams eating fish.

[ 11-25-2003, 04:25: Message edited by: Lars G ]

Lars, thanks for the info on the #1 - an interesting wildcat I'll have to do some research on. Did you have it rechambered here?

I've got a #1 in 375, but still hesitate to carrying it on the ABCs for deer - even in December. I saw a large bear on Admiralty the third week of December in '01.