I'm going salmon fishing in AK this summer. If one did have to shoot a bear in self defense (sure hope not) Where should you attempt to place your shot. I've heard stories about large caliber rifle bullets ricocheting off the sloped skull of a bear, where could you shoot one with a handgun to stop it.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
I'm going salmon fishing in AK this summer. If one did have to shoot a bear in self defense (sure hope not) Where should you attempt to place your shot. I've heard stories about large caliber rifle bullets ricocheting off the sloped skull of a bear, where could you shoot one with a handgun to stop it.

There are no bears in AK
(I've heard stories about large caliber rifle bullets ricocheting off the sloped skull of a bear)B/S, that is an age old excuse for shitty shooting! a 22lr is far better than a willow switch.

I've never done it, but I'd be a little suprised if you had time to aim or pick your shot.

1st, I'd advise using proper precautions to avoid having to use the precautionary firearm. Silently stalking thru the waist high grass at first or last light along a stream bank seems like a good way to find out whether or not your choice of deadly force is adequate. Even quietly talking to the grass, birds, fish, whatever gives a bear some notice about your iminent arrival.

2nd, If you do have to defend yourself from a bear, consider bear pepper spray. Killing a bear under any circumstances is dramatically eventful, physically challenging to process after the kill and time consuming. Yes, if you kill a bear in self defense you are required by law to not only skin the bear but also to surrender the hide and skull to a local fish cop. I am quite sure the local fin and feathers fella has better ideas about what a good afternoon entails than being on the recieving end of a mostly bald, rotten salmon smelling bear hide.

Lastly, I know from local events that a .44 works well, especially when unloaded via the muzzle as fast as one can pull the trigger. Using a firearm to kill an attacking bear means pulling the trigger on a quickly moving target that is feet away. The cover around coastal Alaska at least is thick enough that a bear may well be in full charge 100 yards or 100 miles away, but you won't know it until it pops out of the cover 20' away from you. My fear while hunting or fishing locally isn't of the bear across the river or meadow, but of the bear that stands up when I stub my toe on his ribs in the tall grass.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
I've never done it, but I'd be a little suprised if you had time to aim or pick your shot.

1st, I'd advise using proper precautions to avoid having to use the precautionary firearm. Silently stalking thru the waist high grass at first or last light along a stream bank seems like a good way to find out whether or not your choice of deadly force is adequate. Even quietly talking to the grass, birds, fish, whatever gives a bear some notice about your iminent arrival.

2nd, If you do have to defend yourself from a bear, consider bear pepper spray. Killing a bear under any circumstances is dramatically eventful, physically challenging to process after the kill and time consuming. Yes, if you kill a bear in self defense you are required by law to not only skin the bear but also to surrender the hide and skull to a local fish cop. I am quite sure the local fin and feathers fella has better ideas about what a good afternoon entails than being on the recieving end of a mostly bald, rotten salmon smelling bear hide.

Lastly, I know from local events that a .44 works well, especially when unloaded via the muzzle as fast as one can pull the trigger. Using a firearm to kill an attacking bear means pulling the trigger on a quickly moving target that is feet away. The cover around coastal Alaska at least is thick enough that a bear may well be in full charge 100 yards or 100 miles away, but you won't know it until it pops out of the cover 20' away from you. My fear while hunting or fishing locally isn't of the bear across the river or meadow, but of the bear that stands up when I stub my toe on his ribs in the tall grass.

Very well said!!

I would call BS on the bullet ever bouncing off the head of a bear if I had'nt seen it.

Haveing said that, at the range you will be in a "true" DLP situation the head of the bear won't only be a big target but it will be in the way of everything else.

I have been in dozens or many more situations with bears where I had to raise my rifle or sometimes revolver but for the most part your gun really serves to give you the confidence to stand your ground and not do something foolish like RUN.

I have been in situations where I belive some others would have shot a aggressive bear but I felt confident enough in myself and my gun to hold off.

I have been charged by a few bears mostly ones that allready had a bullet in them. One time I was charged by a bear unprovoked and when that happens you don't have to question it. You know whats comeing down.

Ya know what's kinda common here along the Yukon?
Black bear sneaking in on you, no joke. Twice, I've had young males come crawling in like a cat on a rabbit; real slow, front quarters down, ears going back and forth like crazy. The first time it happened to me, I was able to yell & wave the bear off; and it was within 6-8 feet of me. Second time, I pulled gun out and fired through the brush, but couldn't find blood and bear took off. Quite a few animals have never seen people around here and when they are yearlings, don't have much fear of people.

We actually have too many bear, none of the locals hunt them, Indians think they are their long lost relatives, and they are really hammering our moose. My boy shot one with his bow, but didn't excite him much.

I've seen quite a few grizz traveling up and down the Taylor but they usually take off pretty quick. The ones I have seen along salmon streams kinda know about people.

The more bear contact one has had, the less likely one shoots a bear too quick.

I have this old Indian buddy, had his cabin door knocked off the hinges at his cabin by grizz. His dog chased it off, spooked the Indian some. The guy lives on a lake, dead reds all along the bank; bear come in from miles around to clean it all up. Been sitting at his picnic table and big ole bear stroll past, barely even notice us, ha; so full of fish.

quote:

My fear while hunting or fishing locally isn't of the bear across the river or meadow, but of the bear that stands up when I stub my toe on his ribs in the tall grass.

Sort of like snakes down here, it's the ones that you don't see that bite you. If you can see a snake early enough to shoot one, you can probably avoid having to shoot it.

I'm going up to the Kenai in late May, my wife and I will be carrying pepper spray. The .357, with 180 gr. hard cast bullets, is for shoving down his throat or in his ear hole.

The best advice I've heard for having to shoot a bear in charge is to kneel or sit down, aim center mass. By being on the same level as the bear, you shouldn't have the constantly changing angle to deal with, you just try to shoot straight through him.

Also, I would suspect that if the bear isn't inside 10 yards, and you shoot it, you are going to have a lot of splainin' to do the State Trooper. And you'll probably end up a lot lighter in in the wallet.

Odds are greater that you'll run over a moose in a rent car in Anchorage than you getting attacked by a bear. I've driven the triangle twice now, and I worry more about hitting moose than anything.

This is one question I love. I know I'm probably gonna be in the minority here but!!!
IF you're gonna take a firearm while fishing, I'd nix the handgun or rifle idea right away. Instead, I'd get an Ithaca Deerslayer shotgun with rifle sights.
They're hell-for stout, the receiver is fully enclosed to help prevent debris from interfering with it's operation. They hold something like 5 rounds in the magazine (if I correctly recall). Load the magazine with about 2 slugs first then finish off with about #2 or so shot. Therefore, your first shot would be #2.
I'll bet my next retirement check that IF you end up close & personal with a large bear, you'll be too shakey to aim precisely enough to put a rifle/pistol bullet where it counts. You basically have 2 choices when you're up close & personal - 1. Kill the bear or, 2., turn him.
You have a much better chance to turn him if you fill his face with a load of #2 buckshot. The idea isn't to kill him, it's to turn him. As a side note, I've fished streams having bears nearby and many people as well. My greatest fear wasn't of the bears, it was the idiots carrying a .338 WM. All anybody needed was for one of those nimrods to touch one off & hit someone on the other side of a bush.
Now, you other Alaskans can flame me for my opinion.
Bear in Fairbanks

Bear I didn't read anything I thought deserved flaming as you say.

Were I to be in the un enviable position of being charged by a bear, like you my primary concern would be getting the bear to do otherwise. Stopping, dying, dropping, falling, turning, even levitating seems to me preferable to the bear coming.

As I mentioned before, I am under the impression that the pepper spray is a better option. It works, is legal to carry without a permit, requires no eventual interview with law enforcement, no cross training to use the fillet knife as a big game skinner, and no home town condemnation from the local Humane Society.

As an aside, while traveling locally I either carry a .375 H&H or a .44. My wife commonly carries pepper spray while walking our bird dog as a defense against aggressive strays.

Bear ; I,m surprised . but tho I don,t overly advocate a shotgun , it is miles better than arosol hot sauce . and that is way better than nothing ... Seldom do thing happen in text book fashion . I think the 50 BMSA will be the ultimate summer gun , 18" barrel , 2 tons of clobber . 325 or 375 gr X bullet @ 2400-2550 fps . But a pistol is imo a must . because it can ALWAYS BE AVAILABLE !!! The ideal aim point to train your brain to aim for is the nose of the bear . NOT BETWEEN THE EYES.. Not because I fear a richochet . but their head will be moving and you want to get all the bullets into their noggin that you can ... Belt Mountain PUNCH bullets ... It don,t matter what speed you push them . the fraster the better ..As long as the load is totally reliable ....FAR TOO MANY PEOPLE I KNOW HAVE BEEN SAVED BECAUSE THEY HAD A PISTOL, myself included, MANY TIMES !!!! for me to ever advocate other wise ......They are alot better wall to hide behind than a cloud of pepper spray ..........It has been my experience and the experience of many people I know that shakiness wasn,t a problem . No flameing in that , just my personal experience and that of friends and acquaintances ........ It is true that a rifle or shotgun in your hands is faster to get shootin than a pistol in a holster .... but for my dogs I would have got at least mauled and possibly killed because my rifle was 10 paces away when I desperately needed it in my hands ... If I,m out and about now you can be garrenteed I have a pistol on me now .....I don,t figure I will get too many freebies like that one ........ IMO a 6 " barrel is the max length and 2 1/2" is what I,m getting more and more to want ... Not as much for the speed in presenting it , but because they are so much easier to pack around .......Tho the very first time I can remember fireing a warning shot and hideing behind a pistol I had a 12" barreled Viginia Dragoon in 44 rem mag. it was on Knight Is in P.W.S. 1980 . There have been between 15 and 20 different times I have had to fire a warning shot and hide behind almost as many different handguns ... 357 rem. 180 gr handloads . 40 S&W 180 fmjs 41 Rem Mag .210 gr SP . 44 mag bunch of different loads . 45 Colt 300 gr speer plated and Hornady XTP . and 480 Ruger 410 gr Buffalo Bore hard Cast , and 400 gr Speer plated ... I haven't been bit yet Thank God !!!
. However , I would rather have a good dog and a 30-06 than my 458 and no dog ......

So , I,m not flaming anyone .Not attempting to cast aspersions or anything ... but I have a good amount of experience in this area so I thot I would throw in my 2 cents worth ........Takeing care of a dead bear is not too hard .not too easy either but .... tracking down a wounded bear is NOT A CHORE I WANT TO CREATE .....SO just shoot it in the snoze 5 or 6 ect times with a strong loaded heavy bullet and you shouldn't need to do any tracking ...
Once you wound it if it turns to go . perferate its lungs as many times as you can . .. It you have a 500 . bust its hips . The 500 Smith & Wesson with a 400 gr bullet @ 1600 fps will shatter the hips of an 8 1/2 foot brown bear .......

i wont tell you not to bring a gun, but the reason treadwell lasted so long is when the bears are eating fish and as long they arnt injured or for some reason pissed at the world they dont mind walking real close to you, just looking for some food, bring an air horn , pepper spray and a gun, last thing you want is to shoot one and have to skin a fish stinkin bear , which is is required in D O L P shootings

Skinning a bear ain't that much of an ORDEAL as some on here seem to think it is ..... One wonders if some of you guys fish wearin lace drawers !

did i forget to mention the bear bells

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
Skinning a bear ain't that much of an ORDEAL as some on here seem to think it is ..... One wonders if some of you guys fish wearin lace drawers !

Not suprisingly that is a stupid thing to write.

For any tourist fisherman a bear is more than an ordeal to skin. A fisherman chasing Kenai kings,Brooks Range char, Nushagak silvers, or Ketchikan steelhead intentionally shows up streamside unprepared to process big game.

Hypothetically, say a pair of buddies flew into Dillingham mid August for a scheduled flight with an air taxi trip out to the Goodnews River to float and fish for a week. The second of their six scheduled nights out, one intrepid adventurer DLP's an 8 1/2' bear. Both the buddies being experienced outdoorsmen, the hide and skull are sucessfully removed. Now what really is the plan? Its a float trip. The air taxi flying to your aid in the morning to remove the skin and skull from the DLP'd bear is out of the question. We have drop off points and pick up points. Mid way pick up's are left to the helio sported by the Coast Guard. Its mid August. Sorta warm on the Goodnews. Oops! No salt to preserve the hide, no container large enough to store the hide or skull, so now we ride with and upon 150#'s of smelled rotten when you skinned it, certainly is actually rotting after day four of the trip bear parts. Mebbe if properly fermented you could use the oozing slime seeping out of the hide and skull as a beverage.

I am quite sure that 99% of all fishing guides do not have a keen interest in skinning a clients DLP'd bear. I am equally sure 99% of the transporters working in Alaska are also less than enthusiastic when they first see their client round the corner of the gravel bar carrying toward their vehicle a greasy, smelly, completely un preserved or contained bear hide and skull.

I haven't had much to do with them, but does anybody have any anecdotes they'd be willing to share regarding motorhome rental agencies and their policy regarding raw bear hides on the upholstery?

Or, lets say the two fishermen on the Goodnews are experienced fishermen but as is frequently the case, not experience big game skinners. Now what?

Or, lets say the two fishermen on the Goodnews are experienced fishermen and big game skinners but they use as a first, (1st) resort something like pepper spray. If they use the pepper spray correctly and effectively, (much the same as one should use a firearm in self defense,)the bear retreats and the fishermen continue to use their fillet knives for their intended purposes.

Gumboot, FYI, I do not wear my lace panties while fishing, but I do not warm to the idea of soiling my Egyptian cotton waxed coat, my linen polo shirts or my hemp wading pants with bear crud and blood.

Sorry Scot ; I was just foolin .... Just wanted to see who I could get excited ...Now are u sure that is real Egyptian cotton your slicker is made from ? Its not some cheap Chinese knock off is it ???

I apologize , but I couldn,t resist .

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
Sorry Scot ; I was just foolin .... Just wanted to see who I could get excited ...Now are u sure that is real Egyptian cotton your slicker is made from ? Its not some cheap Chinese knock off is it ???

It had frigging better not be Chinese. My Personal Shopper has assured me that all my fishing apparrel is of the finest quality organically grown, union tailored, environmentally transported, and socially consciously marketed traipings my rubber checks will buy.

I would be quite happy to let the individual fisherman who gets to dump a bear at close range figure out how to take care of their bear ....

.
.Some of you guys sure want to castrate The Last Frontier ...

A firearm can and often will defuse a situation outside of the working range of pepper spray without mortality. I have used pepper spray and now carry anything else I can if it is legal. Things happen pretty quick inside of 30 feet..... Concerning Scott's hypothetical, I'm going to exercise some civil disobedience, have a photo record if needed, and shutup about it.

I wonder if somebody ever killed a bear in self defense and then FORGOT to report it?

Just wondering

Un doubtedly many outdoorsmen have forgotten to report a DLP'd animal and have never had a further worry. In Dillingham we frequently hear about those that forget and do end up with further worries.

In most recreational or tourist type areas I'd think it very hard to hide a dead and left there-big game animal. Sure the first day or two it might not stick up out of the grass or willows much but whether its a moose, bear or caribou, eventually other predators and scavengers are going to make a heck of a mess of the place. Generally I go back to survey kill sites where I take game out of curiosity in order to see whos been in there after me and 9 times out of 10 its a three ring circus. Ravens and eagles in the trees, bears foxes and coyotes on the ground, fingerling trout and grayling in the water, its quite festive. Oh, right, flies, I forgot the flies everywhere.

To return to my analogy of two buddies floating the Goodnews, say they shot and ditched a bear. Those two buddies are not going to be the only fishermen floating the Goodnews that month. The next group comes along, smells/ finds the bear and lets the outfitter that dropped them off or the (in the Goodnews case,) federal game warden know 'cuz "Wowwie! There's a dead bear on the gravel bar and I wonder if another bear killed it and is lying in the willows waiting in ambush for an un suspecting fisherman!".. ....Or,...... "Theres a rouge outdoorsman recklessly slaughtering all the bears on the river!"....... Or, mebbe,....... "Its a rare strain of poison that killed the bear that the Ruskies secretly introduced into the watershed!". The game warden polls the outfitters working on and around the Goodnews, the possible suspects subsequently are polled,.............Or,..

The game warden flies in his work plane over the Goodnews and sees the carnage from the Thanksgiving meal the ravens have been enjoying and is waiting for the adventurers at the pick up point,.............Or,......

A private pilot flies over, sees what he sees and rats out the fishermen,.......Or,...

Like a typical American, they just can't keep their mouth shut, they had gotten away with it Scot free but told the wrong guy and,.......

Sure, we'd never do anything of the kind, but we all know folks that have taken "extra legal," ducks, praire dogs, coyotes, deer, whatever. A brown bear just can't be stuffed down the front of your chest waders and pass casual inspection from the warden.

In 2007 I killed a really nice bull moose in a meadow up near Royal Coachman lodge in the Wood Tikchik State Park. As of last fall the kill site was still very evident. All the flora was still badly damaged or stunted in a 30' radius of where the bull was butchered. Small bones were still lying on top of the flora.

Evidence of kills just don't hide well up here. Failing to report a DLP'd bear will not be considered an act of "Civil Disobedience," by an Alaskan court officer, it'll be considered criminal.

Especially during the fall hunting season, I'm not really concerned about bears and the DLP issue. I've always got a tag in my pocket and were a bear to get too aggresive with me or my moose quarters or my jet boat I'd happily tag him and go on about my business. In Unit 17 we're allowed one bear per year so shooting a smaller one means I have to wait until next year to look for a bigger one.

For the life of me I cannot understand the reasoning, ( or lack thereof,) behind not prefering any alternative to lethal bear deterance while doing anything other than actually hunting bears.

troopers might offer to help you get it out, ive seen them offer,
and a real big hide and skull might be impossible by yourself. if this were the case and they cite you the fine would probly be 100 bucks if you turned yoursrlf in.
troopers are authorized to investigate dead animals as if it were a human homicide