......It,s really hard not to argue ..........With the 30 cals. 7 mag also , it is just a matter of time and distance the bear travels after being hit..How many shots it takes ..And how long it takes for the bear to die..This is with body shots, not cns... And how close the thickest brush is that a hunter would want to keep the bear out of ....100% fact that shot placement is the key ...And the medium bores are easier to learn to shoot well than the large bores ...For me there is just too much brush in the way or wrong angles ect ..to recomend a small bore .....why waste the effort and expense just to learn your 30 cal ..is relatively underwhelming .....

While everyone "knows" that big bores should kill faster I personally havn't found it all that noticible in practice unless there was an enormous difference in either bore size or bullet weight.
The largest bodied bear any of my clients has ever taken weighed, by conservative estimate, over 1500 pounds and was killed with a single shot from a 300 Wby. The bear was slightly angling away at 75 yards and the 180 partition hit a foot and a half behind the front shoulder, mid way up the body, and angled through, coming to a stop in front of the off shoulder. The huge boar ran 25 yards and piled up. That is virtually identical to the last bear shot by my client this year. The bear weighed 1100-1200 pounds and was hit in virtually the same place with a 375 Ruger with 350 Woodleigh soft nosed bullets. Since it was in very thick brush and began to run I also hit it with the 375 Ruger I was carrying using the same bullets. It ran 25 yards and piled up.
These are but two examples out of literally hundreds of animals I have seen shot but are quite represetative of the "norm" .

Neither bear was stopped in his tracks but both were killed quickly.

If a dangerous game animal like bears, lions and buffalo absolutely must be stopped in the shortest distance then there is no substitute for precise shot placement with as large of bore as one can handle. For that purpose my preference for the past twenty-six years has been - and remains - my 458 Win.

458 win;

i do not understand why your client with the .300 wthby would use 180 gr. n.p. (basically a deer/elk weight bullet) when a 200 gr. n.p. is also available from weatherby factory loaded?

I am assuming that he was using factory ammo and not handloads? Either way, why not use the heavier bullet? N.P. is a fine choice, m.h.o.

.........A friend of mine who took a nice 8 + ft bear on Kathrine Is about 12 yrs ago ..,shot it with his 06 from about 80 of his paces...the bear was grazeing and had no idea he was within a mile ...He was shooting 180 gr partitions , He shot it in the shoulder and it went right down , Never got up or really tried...An execcelent example of what the 06 can do when everything goes right........458 Win , do you find a preformance advantage of the 350 gr bullet over the 300 gr or 270 gr ...in the 375..?? Are they as accurate in the Ruger,s as the lighter weight bullets ??

I have had more of my hunters arrive in camp with a .300 mag than any other cal over the years.

They have allways worked well on the bears and this is probably due to the hunters ability and confidence with a rifle they have used on other game and are familar with.

I consider a .300 minimum for large costal bears but still a good choice especially in the open areas like the AK penn where follow up shots my require some long range shooting.

For the man who can handle the recoil and dosn't mind carrying the extra weight the larger bores will be better.

I will hold that I like the advantage of a flat shooting round when hunting the open tundra areas and with that in mind I'd take somthing like a .378 or .416 Wby over some of the larger cals.

I don't see myself replacing my .338 guide rifle any time soon although as I stated earlier in this topic I do want to try my .458 out.

shot my bear with an 06 last year on the Kampchatka pen 06 200 gn nosler, bear went 100 m and was dead

there could be no worse bullet for hunting than the barnes bullets, they are unpredictable, they will expand, they will sail straight through with no expansion , half expand, come out side ways....spoke with D Echols he said a group of hunters just got back from africa from a cull shoot useing tsx proj....they had such terrible results from the barnes proj, they they changed over to swift A FRAMES then things started looking good
daniel

M98 - interesting report on the Barnes TSX and 180 degrees from my experiences. I'll give D'Arcy a call to get his input as well.

gumboot, Since I only loaded up a couple of boxes of the 350 Woodleigh bullets for both mine and my daughter's rifles for bears season I didn't do any thorough accuracy testing but both rifles kept three shots around an inch and fed great so that is what we used. Neither of us recovered any bullets which is unusual and they did penetrate very well. I did test a few and they also opened widely - as I have learned to expect from Woodleighs.
With such a small sample size I am not ready to say that they are noticibly better killers than good 270 or 300 gr bullets but they gave such good performance I do plan to continue using them and comparing them with the 270 TSX bullets that I also like.

......That sounds like an execellent load ,, and 1" accuracy is totally adequet...As I,m hopeing all my hunting with the 375 Ruger will be up here on the mainland and caribou and wolf would be targeted species,. I will probably concentrate on the 270 gr TSX or260 Accubond / GS , HV bullets .....its nice to know the 350,s feed well......But then all my Ruger M77,s have fed very well , regardless of caliber...This past sunday I broke in my new 9.3x64 Brenneke .. It is a rifle I had built and hadn,t killed anything with it yet ..As there are no deer left in the Hoonah area due to 29 feet of snow last winter and an out of control Brn bear population .. I needed a freezer full of, domestic meat as I can,t get any time off from work to hunt ...The load I used was the 250 gr TSX bullet pushed by 64.5 gr H 4895 w/cci 250 LRM primer..It chronographs at 2725 FPS @ 20 ft from the screens..The groups look good enough @ 200 yrds that I think it or 68.5 gr RL 15 which gives 2750 fps@ 20 ft are the load for this rifle for me..The rifle,s barrel is 21 1/2 " from bolt face to the crown......It was a bit harder shot than most would think concerning shooting a steer....He along with a dozen or more head of cattle were in this 10 acre field...When cows get nervous they clump together and run around in a bunch..I didn,t want to injur another animal and I didn,t want to ruin any meat so it was a head or side neck shot only ....When finally he got ahead of the bunch by about half a body length @ around 40 yrds running from right to left ,the dot found the front of his face a little below the eye and the rifle fired...Hit just below the cord about 3" behind the ear...It broke off the lower projection of the first vertibra and exited ...Upside down he went ...The rancher I bought him from walked up and poked his eye ball and then he started to kick out....I slit his throat , and there was our winters meat...Thank God !!! I can just stick my finger in the exit wound hole and the trauma around the bullet hole is about 2 1/2 " dia....I myself concider that PERFACT bullet preformance..,,,,,M98 it,s a bummer you had such bad experiences with the X and 3X bullets ...but they have always worked above expectation for me..

OlBiker, you asked about brownies being "harder" to kill than blackies. I think it more a matter of demeanor than just the fact that your average brownie is at least twice as big as a blackie (although size matters too!) A brownie worth shooting just doesn't have the fear of things that a blackie usually shows. Blackies want to run and hide after getting hit but a brownie wants to fight.

Plus, they do seem to have a lack of physical sensitivity perhaps from low blood pressure? There are a lot of browines that are "dead and don't know it" for quite a while after a fatal shot.

Just for the 2 cents, the guys that developed the Kodiak bullets and some of their associates over the last 40 years shot a lot of BB with a variety of calibers and bullets, and came to the conclusion that a 338 Win and a 250gr. bullet kills them as fast as anything.
Personally, I shot mine with a 338 Win and a 225gr Kodiak. Shot the bear from about 125 yds as he was walking towards me. Entered the left front shoulder and stopped in the right rear ham. One shot, one bear. I've had this particular rifle for 45 years and it's short barrel, 20" certainly doesn't allow for extream velocities, but I can only remember one animal that needed a second shot. A caribou that I screwed up the windage on at something over 400 yds was the critter. I got the elevation right but a sideways shot in the butt just isn't a killing shot. I was not impressed with that old 200gr Winchester Power Point at that range. Since then I have always made it a rule to just stand closer when I shoot.

The 30-06 is a very good bear rifle, therefore the 300 Win. mag is perhaps a tad better, use 200 gr. Noslers...

If one considers the 06 too light for bear then you should try the 460 wby. is a hammer on bear for sure and slams buffalo to the ground like the hammer of Thor, but kicks the tar out of this old man, so I have to depend on such mundane options as bullet placement to get er done! ..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The 30-06 is a very good bear rifle, therefore the 300 Win. mag is perhaps a tad better, use 200 gr. Noslers...

If one considers the 06 too light for bear then you should try the 460 wby. is a hammer on bear for sure and slams buffalo to the ground like the hammer of Thor, but kicks the tar out of this old man, so I have to depend on such mundane options as bullet placement to get er done! ..

.................


Ray,, Were you bored and had to stir the pot ???????????????? .......What if one accurately placed his shots with a 460 ????

I have no personal experience with any type of bear. So take what I have to say with a grain of salt. One of the guys I went to high school with showed me the pictures and the stuffed Kodiak he shot with a .458. According to him a bang-flop. My personal physician at the time had hunted all over the world. As I relayed this story to him, he got mad and said my friend was ten to one overgunned. He showed me the Kodiak he took with his 30-06. He also matter-of-factly told me,"The 30-06 with a good 180 gr bullet will take anything in North America. Shot placement is king, getting close as possible, that takes skill." He said he got his Kodiak under 100 yds.
Just thought I'd share his thoughts. He died a few years ago--is what I heard. I know what his comments would be if he were alive.

Guides who recommend 30 calibers for their bear hunters do so because experience has taught them that they are LESS likely to have to shoot their clients bear if the hunter uses a rifle they can shoot well - rather than one they are afraid of.

Bear hunters don't need bigger rifles - they just need to learn to shoot the ones they own.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Guides who recommend 30 calibers for their bear hunters do so because experience has taught them that they are LESS likely to have to shoot their clients bear if the hunter uses a rifle they can shoot well - rather than one they are afraid of.

Bear hunters don't need bigger rifles - they just need to learn to shoot the ones they own.

That's potent advice...

Good discussion. While a 30-06 is probably OK, I recently bought a .375 Ruger for bear. Heck, I always wanted a big bore. I've been practicing with it and will be able to shoot it as well as my trusty 30-06AI.

Nosler makes Partition bullets in two weights, 300 grains and 260 grains. Is the 260 heavy enough?

Gumboot,
A properly placed .460 Wby is a good thing! Actually its damned awesome to the point of scary! Make that on both ends!

As to the 350 Gr. Woodleigh .375s, I can't think of a "better" bullet..I helped Geoff design those bullets, they were my brainchild for years, but no one was interested until I contacted Geoff..

I tested those bullets for Geoff in Africa before production, in fact we talked about it long before they appeared on the market, I wanted a RN and Geoff wanted a PP, so he appeased me and made both...I told him a PP would be too long, so he made it the same length of the RN, why didn't I think of that first!! Being the class guy Geoff is he sent me 4 boxes of each in both .416 and .375, in solids and softs, and told me to give them a go..I tried them for a couple of years, then he produced them, as best I recall.

The results of my testing them on buffalo was that the RN expanded more and was more suited for herd shooting or if you are of the school of a bullet expending all its energy inside and animal then the RN is for you...IMO Jeff was right, the PP is "the bullet", but its not as pretty and not nearly as nostalgic! In fact,the results of my tests did exactly what Geoff told me he expected them to do.

The end result was I preferred the PP in Africa for Buffalo, as it had a little more penetration, less expansion, and I could take shots from about any angle, I suppose it shoots flatter at least on paper, and I like two holes and the PP gives me that on about any reasonable broadside angle.

I use now and have used for roughly 5 years now, the 350 gr. RN, in Idaho on elk and I have also shot a few bison with it, it is hell and devastation on these softies and opens up to the size of a fifty cent piece, or at least a quarter, and has more than enough penetration.

In the black timber it will take a bull elk in the keyster and set him on his nose right there and he does not hop to the bottom of the devide, thats a blessing from above...

On deer and black bear it kills like the hammer of Thor and if they move you need hip boots to wade in the blood trail, thats a good "thang"!

I like the RN in the USA..I would probably opt for in on any kind of bear.Two damn good bullets, the RN and the PP...

The 450 gr. 416 is just more of the best, with the same application.

Of note is I still use the flat nose monolithic solids by GS Customs in both calibers, or my supply of Northfork flat nose solids and cup points, as I like these design, they are as I recall 270 gr. and 370 gr. but they print about an inch higher in both of my guns over the 350 gr. and thats another blessing...also another subject.

Also as I recall I talked Phil into trying the great heavy Woodleighs, which wasn't much of a chore since he is the first to try anything new and interesting...He and I don't always agree on bullets, and that too is a good "thang", it makes for some interesting converstations, but not for the weak at heart!

Anyway for what it's worth.

Ray and I agree here although I think the 350 RN Woodleighs are too soft for big bears but I am anxious to try the PP ones and have some on order for this spring.

Anyone use the Garrett Hammerheads on brown bear yet? I've got a draw tag in the Chugach for grizz and I plan on running some of those 420 gr HH's through my XLR 45-70, should be potent bear medicine for sure. I have a pard that uses the 540 gr HH's but I'm a puss and went with the 420's.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Guides who recommend 30 calibers for their bear hunters do so because experience has taught them that they are LESS likely to have to shoot their clients bear if the hunter uses a rifle they can shoot well - rather than one they are afraid of.

Bear hunters don't need bigger rifles - they just need to learn to shoot the ones they own.

............................Well then I think all those guides should recommend the 260 Remington w/ 140 gr bullets instead ....Since it kills anything including Elephant that the 06 will ,.,.,and it is even easier to shoot ................But just so the reading public knows , there are alot of guides who very strongly recommend the 338 Win mag on up for brown bear .........

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
[QUOTE]QUOTE]............................Well then I think all those guides should recommend the 260 Remington w/ 140 gr bullets instead ....Since it kills anything including Elephant that the 06 will ,.,.,and it is even easier to shoot .

So which is it the 260 or the bazooka.

It seems painfully obvious that you hate 30 cals.

I dont think that it helps anyone to bash 30 cals every time you see a bear thread.

If you are not getting it done with a 30-06 you wont get it done with a 338 either.

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:
[

If you are not getting it done with a 30-06 you wont get it done with a 338 either.

..............The 338 Win mag is substantially larger than the 30/06 ......and if the range is close then bullets like the 275 gr Swift or Kodiak Bonded Core or the 300 gr Woodlieghs or Hawk bullets make it very simular to the 375 ......A 275 gr bullet @ 2640 fps or a 300 gr @ around 2500 fps ....And a 250 @ 2650 fps or more are alot bigger than a 180 , 200 or 220 gr bullet in 30 cal ....

............If we take the wisdom in the saying ,,, to use as large a caliber as the person can shoot well..........And there is no reason not to ....There is little reason to stop at the 30 caliber ...The 35 Whelan and 9.3x62 .are very similar recoil wise to an 06 w/220 gr bullets .....the 338 win mag is very similar to the 300 win mag recoil wise and I know a number of men who have and shoot both the 300 Wby and the 375 H&H , and they say the 375 is easier to shoot...I,ve shot a couple 300 wbys and I didn,t think they were any easier to shoot than the 375 ..........My first 416 Taylor with a 350 gr bullet @ 2450 or a 400 gr bullet @ 2250 was a nice shooting rifle that was not at all difficult to shoot .,.,

Not everyone is the same and some simply cannot tolerate the recoil of a 338 or bigger magnum rifle. The 300 win mag's recoil is not similar to a 338, i've owned the 300 win mag and shot a 338, no comparison IMO, the 338 has substantially more recoil. Hell, as far as that goes, the 338 tends to thump a little more than the 375 H&H, thats another reason why I own one (375). We all know you love the big magnums gumboot, just accept the fact that not everyone can handle them like you can. 30 cals will kill bears all day long.

Back to the original question of what kills bears deadest. A sherman tank would be right up there. All kidding aside, a 30-06 can do it. A 300 win does it better. A 338 win does it better still. And don't forget the 375 RUGER which does it best of all. Okay, I'm done.

The .340 Weatherby Magnum with 250 grain Nosler Partition bullet is just plain tough on Brown Bear. Load for accuracy between 2700 to 3000 FPS

There is nothing substantial about .030 inch and 40-60 grains of lead.

Since this is all opinion anyways I will throw some more out there.

I would class some cartridges by power levels that are my own theory.

Class 1

.264 140 and 160 grain--- 260 rem and up
.270 150 grain ---270 and up
7mm 160 and up ----7mm-08 and up
.308 165-180
8mm 180---8mm mauser and up
.338 200-210---338 federal

Class 2

.308 200-220---308 win and up
8mm 200-250---8mm mauser and up
.338 210-300---338 win
.358 225-250---358 win and whelen

Class 3

340 wby 338-378wby250's,275,300
358 norma, stw 250,280,310
9.3 286
375 270,300

class 4

over 40 cal

-----------------

THIS SHOULD BE FUN


-------------------

Starting with the 6.5 a 140 grain S.D. around .280 this is probably the smallest cartridge to penetrate and break bone.

The comparisons are all with premium bullets. Have to compare apples to apples.

If you use regular bullets then cartridges like 308 win 358 win would out penetrate the 300 mags and 358 mags do to bullet blow up in the larger rounds.

-----------------------------------------

I dont rate the 338 win mag any higher than the 30-06 because I have seen quite a few moose shot with both and the 338 just makes a little bigger hole. They will both blow a hole through a moose vertabrae.

Bullet selection is key. I have seen that the 165 barnes X out of a 308 winchester will penetrate the same as a 210 nosler out of the 338 win mag. Did it on moose. The 165 Barnes X out of a 308 winchester will exit a broadside moose.

Edited: part about premium bullets.

quote:

Starting with the 6.5 a 140 grain S.D. around .280 this is probably the smallest cartridge to penetrate and break bone.

These are all with premium bullets.

Well, it looks like my swede is my new bear rifle. Oh, wait I don't have any premium bullets for it. Shoot! I'll just have to go back to my 375/06 imp with the 300 grain Kodiaks.

That'll work!

...Just a quick one ,,, M70 ,., I have had both 300 and 338 ,identicle ruger rifles and shot them side by side w/ 225 or 250 gr bullets in the 338 and 200 gr in the 300 , even tho the 300 weighed a scochs more I thot they recoiled the same .....with the 275 and 300 gr bullets in the 338 it was extremely shootable for the power ......a 275 gr bullet at 2640 avg vel ,,, It is really an impressive load..............

Oh and if some of you guys spend much time on the Big Bore forum you will discover people who make me look like a non starter concerning Large rifles ....Safari Kids 9 1/2 lb 600 OK or his and others 700,s plus all the 550,s and 577,s .,., A 458 is just a nice rifle ....To say it is huge is just not at all true .........

I have been thinking on this..
A .600 OK shoot a 900 grain bullet at 2400 FPS or maybe 2300 FPS depends on the barrel lenght!

And I have heard that the new weatherby DG rifle with a 28" barrel will make 2800 FPS with a 500 grain horandy.. man that is impressive!
And for smaller bears I think it would be more effective than the .600 OK..
I think it would be much more damage and shock with a 500 grainer at 2800 FPS!
What do you think gumboot458 ??? and what about a 350 grain premium bullet at 3100 FPS from a 28" .460?
//OK

...Sorry its too late , can,t write about this any more ,for 6 months ................gone fishin