My next hunt for brown bears is at least two years out, but I thought I'd throw this out for consideration and comment.

Given a choice of a .375 H&H Magnum with 300-grain North Forks or a .338 RUM with 240-grain North Forks, both with warm (but not insane) loads, which would you use for hunting browns and why?

This may just be a matter of crunching numbers in QuickLOAD, which I've yet to do, but I thought I'd get some "human" input.

Oh... I shoot both equally well and the recoil from neither one bothers me in the least. This is purely a matter of which gun/load to take. Again, I've got at least two years before I go again, so my question is just academic at this point.

Thanks, guys.

Russ

i am my know means an expert and i guess it depends what rifles these are chambered for. ill go with my gut instinct and say the 375. the reason is no matter what quickload says everyone knows that a 375 will do the job(not that a 338rum wont). Also i am guessing that the barrel is shorter on the 375 which is handier and i am also guessing that you have open sights on the 375 which may come in handy..Iam sure both will work but the 375 gets my vote..

Russ,
I'd take whichever rifle you like the best. Either would do the job, neither are lacking. I suppose if it were me, I'd take the 375 H&H, but then again, maybe not.

Well Russ, as many here do have, I have a .375cal. but in the ULRAMAG "hybrid" an a couple of .338's and other mags as well. I personally would still go for the .375 but somewhere in my reading digs there was a article on the .338RUM that stated it was a more efficient round comparing to the other RUM designs. The .338 was designed for our big bears but there is not anything up to the .375 that has any kind of history or "praise" as that particular H&H. 300 grainers all the way.

Russell: Clearly you have to be able to handle the rifle, and all .338s and all .375s are no shrinking violets when it come to recoil..I would recommend the largest gun you can shoot. I have limited experience, but I do have some experience in killing these animals. I recently watched two large brown bears shot..my friend's bear shot with a 300gr SAF out of a .375RUM and my bear, which I shot with 260grNP out of my .378...both bears where dead, but not before they bit their wounds and ran into the bush. I think you should use heavy .375H&H bullets. I am going back this Sept with my brother for brown bear, and I am using my .416 Wby with 350gr SAF and I bought my brother a .375 H&H. I'ld shoot the biggiest gun that you can handle and don't take long shots..100 yards is a very good distance to place your bullet where it needs to be.

ps: Russell, focus on SE or western Alaska for your next hunt...once you get around these animals and see a bunch of them, and maybe even shoot one, it will change everything! . You will love it.

375 H&H....there is no finer cartridge for big bear hunting. The .338 RUMmie ain't no slouch though.

-Ron

Hey Russ.

I'd take the 375 H&H. Tony says that is the minimum he likes his guys coming with. I didn't get the impression he was that high on the 338/338 RUM, I could be wrong.

Didn't you take a 416 Rem last time? I jumped from the 375 H&H for my hunt in August to a 416 Rigby shooting 350 grain Barnes TSX. The 416 Rigby kicks a little more, but packs a whole lot more punch and is just as flat if not slightly flatter than the 375 H&H with a 300 grain TBBC or 260 Grain Nosler Accubond.

Guess the bottom line is like they say "go with what you are comfortable (confident) with."

Probably picking at short hairs between the two calibers, just that the 375 H&H is the standard bearer for minimum caliber on dangerous game.

I'd go to Africa with the 375 H&H, but not the 338/338 RUM.

Two months and counting until its my turn.

.375 H&H

Roland

quote:

Originally posted by BHW:


Didn't you take a 416 Rem last time?

True enough, but it weighs 12 pounds and I found out the hard way it's more suited (to me) for walking flat ground (Africa) than up and down the mountains of 16B in Alaska. Both my .375 H&H Magnum and my .338 RUM are lighter and more portable for Alaskan hunting.

What I'm looking at, initially, is energy over (versus) caliber (and I do mean caliber, not chambering). True, I can pump a 300-grainer a fair ways through a lot of bear with the .375 H&H, but -- even though it's a lighter bullet, at 240-grains -- the .338 RUM will more than likely get me a lot more penetration. The North Forks have great integrity throughout the performance spectrum. I think what I'm looking at is both of them giving great expansion and holding together, but the .375 bullet stopping a bit shorter. I'm pretty sure the .338 RUM would punch all the way through, from most any angle... or at least plow a longer path.

It's kind of a tough call, actually. Throw a fatter bullet weighing 300 grains, slower, or throw a thinner bullet weighing 240 grains, faster.

Over on another website, devoted to 9mm pistols, I'm always arguing the slow-and-fat .45 ACP 230-grainer over the fast-and-thin 9mm 124-grain +P+. Maybe I should just apply it to this dilemma and go with the .375 H&H Magnum with the 300-grainers. Makes for interesting consideration, though.

Yes, the H&H has a strong, solid history with a lot of tradition... but the .338 RUM is like a green laser on steroids. Decisions, decisions.

Russ

Russ,

I took a 375H&H to the Peninsula last May and it worked great, the only down fall I see in that choice is weight. I am going back to that same country for Moose next fall and I will take a lighter weight 338 Win. Just to save some weight, when you start to pack a spotting scope and all the other stuff you need in the event you have to spend the night away from camp you start to think about saving weight somewhere. Other than weight you cant Knock on the 375 H&H in Brown Bear country.

HBH

Not sure if this is the same thing but a fella on these forums did a penetration test using a 375h&h and a 375rum with the rum going alot faster and i believe the h&h penetrated more at slower speed then the rum did. the only differnce is the rum had a more violent entry hole..

Add another vote for the 375, as the hot rodders say, there's no replacement for displacement and for dangerous critters, bigger bullets are always better

The only advantage the 338 rum has is flatter trajectory, but I can't see any reason why one would shoot a bear at a range where that would come into play. The 375 is plenty flat shooting for the range bears are taken.

quote:

I think what I'm looking at is both of them giving great expansion and holding together, but the .375 bullet stopping a bit shorter. I'm pretty sure the .338 RUM would punch all the way through, from most any angle... or at least plow a longer path.

It's kind of a tough call, actually. Throw a fatter bullet weighing 300 grains, slower, or throw a thinner bullet weighing 240 grains, faster.

Russ,

though this topic seems to be a flamethrower at AR, why not ask RIP? He seems to have more than a little experience in this department, and makes a passionate argument when it comes to penetration.

Good luck--and come back soon,

friar

.375 H&H - recoil is mild, but power on the receving end is great. And it shoots flat enough for 300 yards shots.

quote:

Originally posted by Russell E. Taylor:
It's kind of a tough call, actually. Throw a fatter bullet weighing 300 grains, slower, or throw a thinner bullet weighing 240 grains, faster.

Easy call. The 300 grain bullet will penetrate deeper. The splash effect will hold the higher velocity bullet back, and tends to accelerate expansion which in turn diminishes penetration.

Russel

Neither would be the wrong choice. Having said that though the 338 UM can really reach out but you don't need that. Most guides want you to get inside 150 yd. or closer so the 338 really hold no advantage over the old 375 H&H. With a 300gr premium bullet you'll be in good shape and your guide will like it too. The 375 is the classic brown bear round.

Regards,

Mark

Russell: The issue of how far to shoot is I think not discussed often enough..as Mark and others suggest, you do not want to take long shots on these animals and I am sure, as Mark said, your guide would encourage you to shoot between 80 and 120 yards...(you don't want to get too close to the bastard before your shoot!). Chances are that if you are shooting at a bear close to 200 yards it is because it is wounded and is trying to get away. So a long range shooting rifle will not buy you much...and it may cause problems.

Both the bears we shot this May were right at 100 yards, we were shooting sort of big guns and sort of big bullets (.375UM and .378), and both were one-shot kills, but, neigther bear fell down after being hit..they ran between 10 and 50 yards before falling down out of sight in the bush. I am taking a .416 with 350 gr bullets in the hope of actually having the bear fall down right when I hit it instead of it running off. So, big bullets at 100 yards is the way I look at it.

375H&H reasons have already been stated!

Another vote for the 375 Belted Rimless Magnum.

RWJ,
I see you have the .416 but why not load a 350grainer in your .375RUM? Would that not better the one shot kill? The RUM has that potential to load a heavier bullet and still maintain the "known" preferred velocities for a kill. That being 2500-2600fps. arena. Could the .375RUM be the "new" caliber to do it all? I mean 350GRAINS - that is alot of bullet, anywhere in the world. Should not that bullet weight knock em down right there and then?

grizz: I do agree with you absolutely..my hunting partner, Mike Holley, he shoots the .375RUM (I shoot the .378 Wby). I load my own bullets using SAFs and NPs, and both of these bullet makers max out at 300grs for .375 caliber bullets. There is no two ways about it, both of these cartridges are simply devestating...and I think a .375 H&H would behave the same way with the same bullets at the same range...

The hunt we were on this May, we were hunting tidal mudflats and adjacent grasslands, right at the edge of the forest...not open tundra (which has its own set of alder problems). I might think differently if I actually saw these bears fall down dead. But I didn't.

I think that the biggest bullet that you can shoot out of any of the heavy .375s are perfect for brown bear..but twice this spring I walked into forests and alders that I could not see into looking for shot bears....both bears, a week apart, were dead as door nails just inside where we couldn't see...I didn't like it and I would prefer not to have to do that again. Even if the bears are dead.

So, I will shoot a rounder, heavier bullet, maybe try and hit more leg bone (maybe not). The bear I shot was hit under the armpit and the exist wound was on the opposite armpit...perfect through heart lungs...but I did not know that when he disappeared instantly into the unseen. A .416 may not make any difference, but I am hoping, if I get a shot, that the bear will actually fall down when it is hit this time.

Phil Shoemaker carries a bunch of rifles I think, but he likes .458s and I bet there is a dame good reason for that...but I do agree that heavier bullets in the .375s would be appropriate.

Shots have to be fairly close, with a good rest, and placed in the right spot..I am talking to myself here,,,

This whole business is very exciting I have to admit and I get some adrenaline just now talking about it. I like talking to tj and ovis. It is very sad to hear about the Anchorage couple up near Kaktovik though.

Gentlemen, please take note:

"Alaska nor Africa have I hunted, but I have guns that would allow me to..."
Perhaps, I just READ too much!

The one thing that strikes me about this thread in particular is about the 350-gr. bullet, regardless of whether it's the .416 Rem.Mag. or .375 RUM.
I remember 'reading', in a RIFLE magazine, I think, about someone who took a .416 Rem.Mag. to Africa and shot everything with a 350-gr. Barnes X-bullet.
It was touted as 'flat as an H&H, but with the knockdown of a .458'.
That stuck in my mind.

Now that I have a .375 ULTRA MAG, and have seen bullets in .375 at .350-gr., it brings to mind the 7mm vs. .300 / SD vs. Diameter-Weight arguments so often brought up.

Wouldn't the .375 350-gr. give BOTH???
YOU tell ME, 'cuz I'm a BLOODY YANK novice!
Thank you.

Well, I think I'll make it the .375 H&H Magnum.

Oh... just for the record, I was never considering long-range shooting on brownies. Indeed, I'd prefer to get as close as humanly possible... you know, "mano y bearo" or whatever.

Anyway, I'll do the 300s in the .375 H&H Magnum.

Thanks, folks. Now I just need to save money.

Russ

338 rem. ultra mag. 338-378 weatherby mag. are the only two calibers able to deliver 2000 ft. pounds energy past 600 yds. define that as plenty of penetration with right bullet at sane ranges(certainly not 600 yds.)your 375 in all breeds has the edge in frontal (define this as bigger) area.there are those who say the ultra mag.&weatherby are overbores nothing could be farther from the truth,really like my 375 out to 150 yds,but trust my 338ultra mag.&340 weaterby accumark past the 200 yd mark,these two plus 338/378 are tack drivers,weight is all the same,375 shorter barrel. ithink if it matters to you to completly penetrate the animal go 338,if your up close and personal either is going to make him stop for a secound,mad or not depends on UUU

lv6757l
Don,t forget 338 Laupa it's faster than the 375 RUM and more accurate than the 338-378 wby.

The 338 Laupa and the 338-378 have ME over 5000 which is greater than the, 358 STA, 9.3 X 62, 375 H&H, and, 375 wby. and almost equals the 458 win.
Baylor Jewell

I found this comment on a very interesting site:

http://empirerifles.com/Main.htm

Light caliber rifles from .257 Roberts to .338 Winchester Magnum, and

Heavy caliber rifles from .375 H&H to .505 Gibbs.

I can understand the desire to own a finely crafted, no expenses spared, Mauser action rifle.

Empire East Africa Rifle in 416 Rigby, Empire Grade

Although my tastes would run more toward the idea of the gun being a tool, opting for the sythetic stock and matte finish.

Empire Legacy Rifle, Field Grade with optional sights

Not like I could hope to afford either at this point in time, but they do represent the 'dreams' that every shooter possesses.

I must say that hunting with a REALLY NICE rifle, such as the first one depicted, to me is akin to spitting on the Mona Lisa...

quote:

Although my tastes would run more toward the idea of the gun being a tool, opting for the sythetic stock and matte finish.

Me too. Make mine synthetic. I am slowly converting most of my hunting rifles to sythethic / stainless as I buy new ones.

Russell E. Taylor

A nice mauser in 404 approx 4,2 kilos with scope must be the ticket

Cheers
/JOHAN

quote:

Originally posted by Perforator:

quote:

Although my tastes would run more toward the idea of the gun being a tool, opting for the sythetic stock and matte finish.

Me too. Make mine synthetic. I am slowly converting most of my hunting rifles to sythethic / stainless as I buy new ones.

Thats funny, I have been convertoing my stainless actioned rifles to chrome moly, got rid of the last two the other day. Ideally I like a chrome action and a stainless barrel !!

quote:

Ideally I like a chrome action and a stainless barrel !!

PC - Is that for smoothness when working the action? I like the brushed stainless look. Is that what the Chrome looks like on your actions or is it shiny?

quote:

Originally posted by PC:
Thats funny, I have been convertoing my stainless actioned rifles to chrome moly, got rid of the last two the other day. Ideally I like a chrome action and a stainless barrel !!

PC,
concervative values comes with age

Cheers
/JOHAN

Instead of a 240-grain bullet in the .338RUM, why not a 275-grain A-Frame?

quote:

Originally posted by Ray:
Instead of a 240-grain bullet in the .338RUM, why not a 275-grain A-Frame instead?

That'd be one helluva combination.

The 338 Rem Ultra Mag is faster that the 338 Lapau
when going by SAMMI spects. The RUM is a great rifle

I shot my first brown bear with a 338 Win Mag. 5 shots to complete the mission. He was an honest 9' 8" square with a 28 1/16 skull.
The 2nd BB was with a 375 Weatherby Mag, took nine shots with the last four being within 20 yards. He squared exactally 9' and the skull was considerably smaller as was the bear.
My beliefs are the same as the others take the biggest rifle you can comfortably handle!
IF you have a 416 Rem Mag it has more medicine than the 338's and 375's IMHO.

BusMaster, I really like the looks of that synthetic rifle.

Try a .375 H&H with any good 270/300gr bullet loaded up or down to meet hunting conditions and a Sako Carbine, 20" barrel, Bell & Carlson kevlar or McMillian stock, Sako mounts and a Leupold 2-7x Compact. Weights 8 lbs 1 oz with sling and 4 rounds and is 40 1/2" long. It's a really handy rifle that you could literally hunt anything with and could probably put it together for way under $2,000 even with a Teflon finish.

It's SWEET.......shoots good and is a pleasure to carry...or...you could use a .30-06...they'll kill bears too!!