The discussion on boots suitable for Alaskan hunting made me wonder if specialist mountaineering skills or equipement are needed to safely/effectively hunt things like sheep or mountain goat in Alaska?

In other parts of the world, in what we would term "Alpine Hunting" a hunter might carry an iceaxe and or crampons to travers snow and ice fields in safety...Is this sort of undertaking common in Alaska?


regards,

Pete

I will be goat hunting this fall with another member from this board. At this point, we have no plans on using what I consider technical climbing gear. I have some experience in rock climbing but I hope we don't have to do any of that. I would say that most hunts do not require this but a little knowledge of the skills required does not hurt. Sometimes animal recovery requires ropes and safety knowledge. There are some animals, especially goats, that become literally unrecoverable by any means or methods.

Pete,
I hunted last year in the Misty Fjords with Muskeg Excursions. The climbing was tough for this old flat- lander, but outside of caulks (boots with logger spikes), all I needed was a set of (soon to be aching) quadraceps. I will admit that I may have settled on the goat I finally shot, based on the thought of tomorrows climb. Of course what I told myself was that I better take the goat in the scope, 'cause of worsening weather, which may have been true, but I was wearing thin.
Don

I have a long background in mountaineering and have spent alot of time in the AK mountains and what I would reconmend is that you learn to rappel and how to setup and use a fixed rope. Both are easy to do and you don't need alot of equipment, but you have to know how to do it. To save weight I carry a 9mm dia static (low stretch) rope most climbing ropes are 11mm. This can be very useful because the game you shoot may fall off a cliff and or on to a ledge and with the right equipment and know how you can rappel down to it and use the fixed rope to climb out or get you to a save route.

I have spent a lot of time alone in the mountains on the B.C.-Alaska border and I couldn't agree more with this advice. It is a very wise idea to prepare for the worst case scenario in any mountain hunting and use the right techniques and equipment; it could actually save your life in the remote wilderness of Alaska and northern B.C.-Yukon.

I carry a complete survival kit while hunting and will not venture into dangerous slopes without ropes, etc. I have known too many people, including very skilled climbers who died by not being careful enough. Also, the weather in much of Alaska-B.C. Goat and Sheep country will often preclude air medivacs if you get hurt, be smart-learn the skills 375 mentions.

I'm also a climber and agree that it is wise to be prepared for dealing with steep stuff. The biggest problem those who aren't familiar with mountaineering get into is a climbing past something they can't down climb out of. 100' of 7-9mm static line is good to carry on any wilderness bout. Certainly inadequite for true technical climbing, but it can get you out of a pinch, and find many other uses in an emergency. The biggest key though is getting the training, and knowing your limitations.

I did a little climbing when I was younger but no serious winter stuff. if the truth be known, we climbed so we could repel down again! Climbers have a whole code of ethics about what is considered "proper" and what is not, but I really can't see a hunter wanting to get that technical. I had never thought about needing climbing or repeling techniques to get to recover trophy after the shot, but it certainly makes a lot of sense.

So does much of the mounting hunting in Alaska involve dealing with snow and ice or do the hunting seasons or the habits of the animals mean its not uusually the case?

regards,

Pete

The general intent is not to be involved with snow while hunting, but snow is a serious possibility in the mountains year round. Even in the flat lands of the North, snow has to be factored in for fall hunts.

My perception about climbers code of ethics is that in the past decade or so, the ends justify the means, and there is no code. That doesn't apply to all climbers, but it is a reflection of the general populace getting into climbing. I greatly preferred climbing in the late 80's when I started into the sport, there was a great commeradre amoung climbers.

What Mountaineering Skills /Equipment Required?



None



I guide Goat hunters out of Ketchikan every season. I have never been trained in mountaineering or gear climbing. If you need ropes and gear to get you onto the Goat your stalking just don't go there. IMO ropes and gear will just get you in trouble. We do have some rope at base (and spike) camp just incase it is needed but do not pack it along on our daily hunts. And all that added gear is just to heavy as we have a max load going up to spike camp as it is.



The main thing about Goat hunting in such radical country whether taking a Goat with Bow or Gun is either anchor the animal where you can retrieve it or where it has room to run and die before reaching 'no mans land'. Only 1 out of 5 (or so) Goats we sight are even getable. They are not always on vertical mountains but usually not far away.



The only specialized gear many local hunters use are Caulk boots (spiked logger boots). I suggest strongly to my hunters that they purchase a pair. My friend and guide Primo Ed puts it simple to his hunters, "you wana go where I go get corks!"



I have had several mountaineering trained hunters over the years. One of those got himself in trouble by thinking he could go where he should not have. It could have resulted in a helo-medivac or worse. You can read the hunt story.



Pat's Goat hunt



Be careful. Goat hunting is the most dangerous North American hunt.

muskeg,

Thanks for the link to that story..very interesting indeed..

I am surprised to hear you say that your not trained in basic rope work...This is not a dig at you, I just don't know what training or expirience a guide in your part of the world is supposed to have..I mean I understand your "qualified" but i guess not what that entails.

So if a hunter took a bad fall and ended up some where in accessable, (and it might only mean a drop of say 20' onto a ledge or something), would a typical guide have the knowledge/equipment to rapel down to him to administer first aid? Would he be able to ascend that rope again, and possible effect a rescue of the hunter? Or is a case of go an get help in the form of a SAR team and/or SAR helicopter?

With regards getting help, and that situation which developed in the hunt you posted the link to, do you guys carry any form of radios or are those illegal to use while hunting in Alaska?

Regards,

Pete

Pete .....

I have never had a hunter injury on a Mt Goat hunt. Knock on wood. We have had several close calls over the years. My guides and my hunters go over emergency procedures if that were to happen. Radio communications are ok, except for using to hunt or harvest the game, and required by guide law under certain situations. Satellite phones have changed comm allot in the last few years and we always have one at hand. We also have hand held VHF (for weather) and emergency comm connection to the US Coast Guard.

Ketchikan has a very good SAR squad. I would leave all the rapel type action to them if needed. A private medi-vac helo is also available out of Ketchikan. Ketchikan is within 1 air-hour usually. US Coast Guard bases rescue helos out of Sitka, which is about 2+ hours away. The Coast Guard has all weather (radar) and night flying capabilities.

The best way to avoid a bad fall from a cliff is just don't go there. You can get a Goat without putting your life at risk.

Pat's rock climbing experience probably helped him get out of the trouble he was in but it also probably helped him get into that situation he was in.

It is more common for a bow hunter to be out on his own (while stalking) than a rifle hunter.

There was a guided Goat hunter out of Sitka season before last that needed a Coast Guard medi-vac after taking a slide and breaking his leg and knee however. A local Goat hunter injured his ankle bad last season out of Ketchikan but was able to hobble off the mountain without a medi-vac.

More people have perished on the flights into or out of the Goat lakes around here than by injuries once hunting. That is the most dangerious part of the Goat hunt and should be. I am very careful who I fly with.

Johnnie

muskeg,



I guess you got to go with what you know, so I understand why your friend would recommend the caulks. But if you are avoiding snow, what advantage do they give you on rock? I'd think the spikes would make things tougher rather than easier. Or is their advantage an ability over wet surfaces?





PeteE - You abseiling/rappelling types are just plain nuts. Statisticly, it used to be that the leading cause of death and injury among rock climbers were rappelling incidents. While I've not personally been hurt, I've been a doublecheck away from dropping to my death, and have had to rap off of some really sketchy anchors. For a while my thoughs have been climb up good, walk down good, rappel down, not good....





Regards,

Scott

Scott,

I was always a very cautious when rappelling as far as rock work went and still had a couple "thought provoking moments"; getting some loose clothing jammed into my Figure of Eight half way down a pitch was one such instance that still gives me the creeps now..

I had a friend who was a very serious climber at the time and watching him rappel used to turn my stomach! I remember one day we were on a pitch and there were some girl students from University on the next pitch over..never one to miss a chance to show off, my mate launched himself off this cliff top with such force he did 90% of the drop in one bound. As he passed this group of girls, one actually started screaming that he had fallen! How he was never killed I don't know...

Have you ever watched the British Royal Marines doing their abseiling displays on TV? Those guys again are something else and they *must* have a screw loose! The one that gets me is when the do the front abseil ie they are facing down the rock and they actually run down the rock with both arms outspread in a crucifix shape!
They can go down that way faster than I can in a conventional abseil...I have never tried that nor do I ever want to.

Regards,

Pete

Pete, hi.

I've got a bit of mountaineering experience and some alpine hunting experience, though I doubt as much as some here. However, a good double mountaineering boot can be very useful. Most hunting gear is a very poor knock-off of the best climbing/backpacking gear. I've used double/plastic mountaineering boots on hunts in extreme cold here in Montana. Mine, however, are too stiff (more for technical/crampon use) so I generally use other boots in my collection.

Two weeks ago I was in the local climbing store talking to the manager about this very subject. He's a big mountain climber (recently returned from a month om Mt. Logan) as well as a hunter. His reccomendation for sheep/goat hunts is the Scarpa "alph" model. Being Italian made, they're obviously available in the uk.

Here's a link:

http://www.scarpa-us.com/2003/gear_alpha.html

I beleive Scarpa has a uk website too.

I examined these boots and believe he's right!

All the best,

BA

Scott .......

There are really not that many Guides in Alaska working Goats. I do know a few. None that I know have had tec mountaineering training.

My Mt Goat experience is in S SE AK. Our Mt Goat area mountains are from 3000 to 5000 feet in elevation. This is a very wet (200 inches of rain sometimes) coastal area. The Misty Fjords is considered a fjord / low alp type terrain. Vegetation goes to the top. There are usually scattered snowfields. Some years of heavy snow fall makes for more snowfields in Aug / Sept / early Oct. After mid Oct it usually starts snowing again and very little Goat hunting goes on in this area then. Actually there is very little Goat hunting in this area any way. We have the densest population of Goats anywhere. We do usually cross or use snow fields while hunting. Caulk boots do work well for that, as the surface snow is usually soft. No one I know in this area uses crampons or ice axe type stuff. It is just not necessary. We have very few Glaciers and where they are not many Goats live. Our Goats prefer the warmer coastal mountains. We encounter 100+mph winds and heavy rains sometimes while hunting. Our Goats don't like the sun and hole-up on warm days making hunting difficult. Then again on the other end of things in bad storms they hole-up also, sometimes with days of very little movement.

Caulks (logger speak is 'corks') work very well in this country. They work well on rocky ground but can be loud during a stalk. I have had several bow hunters take their boots off and make the stalk in stocking feet. Just have to be careful of the Heather, as it is VERY slick in socks!!!! I logged for many years wearing corks in all kinds of terrain including rocky ground. Now-a-days the spikes are replaceable and we usually wear a set out in 1 or 2 Goat hunts.

Johnnie

...most hunting gear is a very poor knockoff of the best climbing-backpacking gear...that is true, in my experience. I also completely agree with the Scarpa boot selection as I think that they are making the best Euro boots at present.

I have worn "corks" both for work and for some hunting in the B.C. coast mountains, but, I do not like them and only wear them when absolutely necessary. I also think that Muskeg is giving very sound advice concerning how to hunt in mountains-don't go where you cannot return from, after all, this is a sport and it's not about proving how macho one is. I hunt alone and am very comfortable alone in very remote areas, but, I NEVER take chances and in more than 40 yrs. have never had more than a few scrapes and bruises.

I really value the opportunity on this forum to learn from the experiences of other mountain people, the older I get, the more I listen and thus realize how much there is yet to learn.