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I'm moving back to Alaska this summer for good. I've lived there before on the Kenai Peninsula where my .300 WM was adequate for everything I needed to do. It looks like I'm going to be moving either into the Illiamna area or the Nenana area. I have a 45-70 Marlin Guide Gun. Do you guys feel that the 45-70 is adequate for the bears I would encounter either of those areas (especially in the Illiamna area)? I would like to keep my 45-70 because it is so easy to carry for long periods of time. Any load suggestions? Anyone had any experiences taking large browns with that round? Thanks for your time and comments. NRA Life Member | ||
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I personally feel completely comfortable with my 45-70 - especially with the newer ammo like Buffalo Bore or corbon. I have not had to shoot one with it but have killed enough with my 458 at longer ranges to know that a 45-70 up close is plenty. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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I agree 100% with Phil [and he is a bona fide expert on bear stuff]. The factory ammo he mentioned is first rate, I have found Garrett ammo to be excellent as well. If you reload try North Fork 350 gr bullets. In side 100 yards the 45/70 is as good as it gets. I used to have a 22" bbled Marlin. My brother now has a guide gun. I much prefer the guide gun. It is a neat... sweet... petite... Hammer of Thor. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Try the Grizzly Cartridge Co http://www.grizzlycartridge.com in Oregon the owner purchased http://www.castperformance.com | |||
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The 45/70 and the guide guns get quite a workout in Hoonah..I,m not positive but I think 11 bears have been killed in the village [actually a class B city] .This year, nusiance / problem/in defense of......Most of them have been killed with the 45/70 guide guns with mostly Buffalo Bore ammo...Seems most people use the 430 grain stuff.... One local Assistant Guide measured 58 " of straight penetration on a 600 plus pound 8 ' square brown bear his father had to shoot............ Hoonah is a pretty small town but there is a steady stream of guide guns in 45/70 going out the door of the local tackle and marine store.......... Just to be different ,, but mainly because I prefer the semi pistol grip and laminated stock .I like the Marlin XLR , in 450 Marlin.... I wouldn,t over shoot any of them with buffalo bore or other full house ammo......... The beauty with the 45/70 is perfact low pressure practice ammo available for cheap.....Its not a Red Mister ... But it works to perfection on bears , big and small.......'with the proper ammo' gumboot out. .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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Thanks for all of the information. I feel much better about having my 45-70. My wife will be happy I don't have to buy another gun. Would you guys recommend the ammunition in the 300 grain or 400 grain ranges? I've reloaded both sizes of bullets and obviously the 300 gr bullets have a higher muzzle velocity but which "package" do you guys think is more effective for a large brown? Thanks again for your time and comments. NRA Life Member | |||
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medium... I deleooped a load in the blued guide gun I had with a 480 gr round flat nose gas check cast bullet......My rifle liked it and it fed well the velocity was 1640 f.p.s. avg. as I remember...... The standerd old load of 405 gr bullets is the standard and it works well... I think Garret makes a 540 gr. bullet that from what I,ve heard goes like the energizer bunny........ The problem with the heavy bullet loads at full velocity is they usually shoot much higher or lower than a moderate velocity 300 gr practice load........Perhaps 458Win has the answer for this as I traded mine off before it got ruined in my skiff.. The friends of mine who use them ,,,which is ,,,{wow] at least 2/3 rds of my friends and acquaintances who hunt or fish and wander around in bear country,,...Hunt with or carry a guide gun... I can think of ,like 30 of them.....I don,t know any one who uses the 300 gr bullet other than for blastin... 350 gr on up. gumboot.. .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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I've used the 300, 350 and 400 grain bullets in my 1895S Marlin with great success. I would leave the 300 grainers for things smaller than caribou. The Barnes and Nosler bullets are better but still light for caliber. I have gone to the Kodiak 350 grain for my Marlin, my Marlin does not like the hard cast bullets. I am driving the 350 grain bullet at around 2000 fps and I believe it will get the job done. The 400 grain bullets shoot well out of my rifle too, the Speer flat nose is wonderfully accurate but you need to keep it below 1900 fps. It was designed for optimal performance between 1500 and 1900 fps. A load of 50 grains of IMR 3031 will deliver around 1700 fps in a 22 inch barrel and to my way of thinking, that should stop almost anything I plan on running into. Corbon loads some good bullets at high velocities and I have heard good reports on them. Find a bullet that your rifle likes and load it to a moderate velocity, one that is accuratae, and don't worry about the wildlife, you will be well served. Jim Jim | |||
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before I began loading 425grn BTB hardcast I was shooting 405 Kodiaks in my Guide Gun with great penetration. I now get a better buy shooting Beartooth bullets than jacketed-asides they just penetrate period. Shot enough grizz to know that in close the 45-70 is hard to beat. Now the brownies are something I don't see around where I live but the grizz I have seen and/or shot are getting quite close to some browny ahhs and oooohs--some about the size of a darn house  ---just make sure your levergun functions all the time--take care of it.regards, | |||
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405gr kodiak bonded at 1925fps out of my tricked out guide gun. Can't think of anything better for a camp or fishing rifle. Anyb ear out to 150 yards woudl be in a lot of trouble with this setup.  | |||
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Nice weapon. Is the barrel stock? When I bought mine (also stainless), I inquired about getting the gas compensating barrel in stainless and they said that they only made the gas compensating barrel in a blued gun. Was the shop wrong in telling me that? NRA Life Member | |||
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Question for 458win: Phil, what 45-70 do you have and have you carried it for back up? Thanks Mark | |||
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Medium. Where do I get a stock like that??? maddog Joshua 24:15 www.teamfaithfull.net / My granddaughter "Multitudes loose the sight of that which is, by setting their eyes on that which is not". | |||
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The stock is a stock marlin stock that has been refinished with spray on bedliner. Its the toughest stuff I have used for rifle stocks and maintains a positive grip without being abrasive on your face while shooting. | |||
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I am still waiting for a synthetic stock for the Guide gun.... Maybe one of these days. Your solution is a great compromise and may be a close second though.  So Many Guns, So Little Time! | |||
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The trick is to get all of the original finish off and leave the surface a little rough. THen the bedliner sticks really good. Mine had bounced around in the rifle rack on my 4 wheeler for a couple years now with little effect. Its definately tougher than anything else I have used. I also completely finished all the inside of the wood to and have had no swelling or cracking even when in a wet spray of the airboat for several rainy days at a time. | |||
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You know that makes a great deal of sense. I may have to "borrow" your idea, at least until someone decides to produce a good quality synthetic stock.  So Many Guns, So Little Time! | |||
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A question for you Alaska fellas. The factory loadings supplied by Buffalo Bore, Corbon, etc., are they within the working range of a Browning 1886 Win. I haven't felt a need for a Guide Gun down here ,but we do have a few grizzlies with a case of attitude. I normally load 49 grs of 3031 behind the old standby Speer .405 gr flatnose. Am I going to gain anymore with the Buffalo or Corbon loads? | |||
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I used the duplicolor brand that you can get at walmart in a spray can for about $8. Just make sure you rough up your stock and get the original finish off and you will be all set. If you do many light coats it seems to work better and allow plenty of time to dry. I left mine in the laundry room next to a nice warm dryer and water heater and it dried quite quickly. Good luck, it works pretty good and if you do gouge it its just a quick spray away to retouch it. | |||
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Yellowstone, From all I have read the Browning action is at least as strong or stronger than the Marlin. I have a Guide Gun that I tricked out with ghost ring sights and Alaska Gunworks trigger and ejector. Mine is most accurate with hot loads. I have had the best results with the 460gr. Cast Performance solid and 45gr. of Reloader 7. This is a max load but how sweet it is. | |||
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The model 71 winchester was made from the 86 winchester....From what I,ve read the Japanese actions are stronger than the win,s A point a friend of mine doesn,enjoy!  The 450 Alaskan and 50 Alaskan,s have been made up on the 86 but mainly the model 71.... It is a bigger action than the Marlin and at least as strong...........But ALL Lever guns should be fed a very spareing diet of full power loads....They arn,t bolts and don,t live too long on hundreds of heavy loads.....Have you tried the 350 gr Speer.........I have had good luck with them in my 458.win...........He would be a good one to ask as He uses them .......If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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FROM Garrett Cartridge site... a 45-70 is probably "enough" Lupo Safaris New World Record In the summer of 2002, Vince Lupo of Tampa, Florida successfully completed his quest to take the African Big Six with his Marlin 45-70 lever-gun and Garrett Hammerhead Ammo. Vince's efforts spanned a 13-month period, a remarkably short time given the broken ankle Vince suffered during his safaris. From the 220-pound charging leopard Vince stopped point-blank, to his remarkable SCI Gold Medal white rhino and huge elephant, Vince's safaris have demonstrated an exceptional combination of tenacity and outstanding marksmanship. Vince Lupo is the first to take the African Big Five or Six with the 45-70 lever-gun. To read a full account of this remarkable achievement as told by Vince Lupo, check out the articles below. NEVER fear the night. Fear what hunts IN the night. | |||
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Thanks guys, I am pretty comfortable with my '86. If there's a downside I suppose it is length and wait realative to the guide gun. I will try the 350 bullet as I have read good reports on their performance. Lawcop, you need to post the article references please. | |||
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THE WHOLE story is at the Garrett Cartridge site. http://www.garrettcartridges.com/lupoindex.asp NEVER fear the night. Fear what hunts IN the night. | |||
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Was the LA Marlin rebarreled or just customized? | |||
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*** FULLY ADEQUATE ? *** I believe it's common sense , in the most basic terms . If Garrett is quoted , ( above ) , as saying the .45-70 with his heaviest loads , is -- " probably enough " . And .458WIN says' -- " I personally feel comfortable with " . . . . , ( and we know that he's world-class experience on Brown-Bears talking / with all shot-placement skills included ) . --- Then I would conclude , that even with Garrett's and Buffalo Bore's finest , .45-70 Plus P's , -- we are NOT adequate . Why , because we're talking pure Dangerous Game application here , ( at least that's the only framework I'm viewing the question in ) . I'm admittedly an arm-chair student of this subject , but I'm also a worst-scenario fan , when it comes to any Dangerous-Game use . -- And I wouldn't give you a dollar for a Brown-Bear rifle , that didn't give a fair chance of stopping a Charge on one of these notorious , ( hard to stop ) animals , -- with one round . What does stopping a charge mean ? In practical terms , it means a reasonable chance of stopping a close-in charge with one frontal shot to center of mass . -- I.E. , as they say in Africa , a true Stopping Rifle . A goodly percent of true Bear-charges where contact is made , -- are very close-in . The Taylor Stopping power calculator , ( found on BearTooth Bullets website ) , shows Garrett's , and Buffalo-Bore's heavies to generate TKO scores in the 53 to 55 range . A Federal / Barnes X 500 Gr. .458 at 2050 fps. creates a TKO of 67 , -- plus it's an expanding bullet , ( well known to be better for stopping-shock ) , -- PLUS , it penetrates like hell . Sure , -- a hot and heavy .45-70 is adequate if you , ( subjectively ) deem it so ; -- but considering what you have to loose , -- I'll take the 67 figure anytime . I know such statements rile .45-70 Fans up , -- but I'd submit this ain't a circumstance for " favorite " cartridges . JMHO , and inputting to the subject for perspective , ( as always ) . ------------- MMCOUGAR . NRA Benefactor Member ---- 2nd Amend. -- They could have said , " The Right of Such a Militia " ; ----- But they didn't , they said " . . . . . The right of the PEOPLE " . | |||
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In 1924 a Griffin & Howe customer with a 30-06 custom Springfield barreled rifle completed his quest to take every big game species on the N. American Continent.Read it folks a 30-06 did it all not a 300,375,416,458,etc .So much for your mega caliber rifles. | |||
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MMCONCOLOR so are you changing your choice from auto 12ga with slugs for a 458 WM shooting 500gr Xbullets??? I have to agree it is a step in the right direction. As to the original question, the real experts have already spoken, If 458 Win would be comfortable with it that should be enough. I have no question on the guide gun. There sure are a lot of them roaming around alaska that have been doing an adequate job so far. | |||
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*** reply to THEBEAR_78 *** -- Nope , not at all . -- Different answer to a different Question / Thread ; -- ( farther along at a different point in the respective discussions ) . The , " Firepower " answer to a bear-charge is a very different APPROACH , -- to Stopping- Power , on Large Bears . The author of this thread , is already limiting , ( somewhat ) , the question as to the efficacy of the great .45-70 / .450 cartridge . As a pure Bear-defense weapon , and camp-gun , -- I'll stay with the auto-shotgun , and very select fodder , -- et. cum. the best of the strategies and shooting techniques . That choice , ( Mine ) , is predicated on my limited experience in stopping large and dangerous animals . -- Maybe if I had been through a few dozen Bruin attacks , I'd choose differently . On the concomitant subject of Dangerous Soft-skinned Game , and stopping-rifles , -- I'll take a short-barreled .458 with 400 to 500 gr. premium soft-points . --- At least until someone builds a quality Levergun with that kind of stopping power . I'm plumb nuts in favor of Leverguns , but I'm not going to let that interfere with my belief in Ruark's , -- " Use Enough Gun " principle . ------------- MMCOUGAR . NRA Benefactor Member ---- 2nd Amend. -- They could have said , " The Right of Such a Militia " ; ----- But they didn't , they said " . . . . . The right of the PEOPLE " . | |||
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I have a question is every hunter pursuing grizzlies facing a charging animal, I think not and I'd like to see some statistics on how many bears have charged and how many haven't or is this discussion for a worst case scenario of what if? | |||
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I was beginning to think that everyone on this site thought like this. | |||
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Not everyone, just certain members and thier bearanoia keeps these things going long after they have stopped being usefull some times. | |||
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** BEARANOIA ** I been accused of " bearanoia " so much , I'd like to introduce a new term ; -- BearAware , or maybe UrsusSmart . I mean , hell , -- in Bear environs , in every major campground and rec. area in America , there's signs put up at tax-payers expense by USFS , BLM , USPS , F&G , -- etc. etc. . --- Then talk to anyone who's had a friend or loved one torn up . --- Sheeet , -- just look at all the fancy Bearproof lids on all those garbage cans . Maybe the whole world is Bearanoid  .Not ! , I think it's just a Freudian way of saying -- " Hell , me and my Blue OX ain't afraid of no Bears " . Not only that , it's the only subject that livens up these Forums , ---  .---------------- MMCOUGAR . NRA Benefactor Member ---- 2nd Amend. -- They could have said , " The Right of Such a Militia " ; ----- But they didn't , they said " . . . . . The right of the PEOPLE " . | |||
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Information from the Alaska F&G Dept on the top 10 cartridges used in AK  1)30-06:20.9,(2)300wm:18.5,(3)338:18.4,(4)7mm mag:8.5,(5) 375:6.3,(6)270:5.8,(7)308:3.5,(8)300weatherby:3.5,(9)45-70:1.4,(10)280rem:1.1 | |||
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Not another one of these arguments. | |||
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** REPLY TO - SCR83JP ** The Natl. Statistics on Bear Attacks that resulted in injury or death , -- are very misleading --  .A look back at Frontier U.S. History tells a better story of the jeopardy that folks live with in high Bear Population areas , ( i.e. Western U.S. , Canada , and AK . ) . Vast areas especially in the Rockies , and clear down into Mexico used to have Griz. . --- And they were systematically exterminated and shot on sight FOR GOOD REASONS ; ( called survival of those who slept outdoors , and/or spent a lot of time there ) . The Stats. don't tell of the thousands of agressive Bears that are quietly shot , or otherwise killed , -- just because they start coming around occupied cabins , and acting a bit agressive . -- It's legion in Western canada , still . -- Ditto in Range-areas where Ranchers are trying to make a livelyhood . Griz. evolved as grumpy , ferocious , animals , -- it's their survival mechanism , and it's a natural thing . The reason there's so little Bear-Attack damage siance 1900 , is because they were mostly wiped out by then . -- And before that , nobody kept records too good . --- BUT EVERYBODY IN THOSE DAYS , KNEW , . . . . . what the Grizzly was like ; -- and the nature of Old-Ephriam hasn't changed . I believe that Wildlife Management is really out in Wa-Wa land here . -- They spend billions of dollars a year on developing the Recreational potentials of vast areas ; -- keep hunters from harvesting Griz. Bears , and then spend millions more warning and worrying about Campers and fishermen who want to enjoy Bear Pop. range . -- But you notice they NEVER , NEVER , recommend that those happy campers bear arms in Bruin Country , -- 'cause that's politically incorrect  .Sorry to sound bitter , -- but it's a silent conspiracy of Anti-Gunners , Anti-Hunters and Animal-rights advocates , -- that are way out of focus in Teddy-Bear Land . Griz. are Top of the Chain Predators , capable of feeding on Humans , -- and they should be protected only to the degree necessary to defeat complete extinction , -- except in very remote and vast wild-areas , -- Period , -- that's my professional opinion . Anybody that goes into heavy Bear range without a stout Firearm , is nuts , unknowledgable , or has a death-wish . -- True the odds are high that you'll never be in a Bear-charge situation , even if you get outdoors a lot ; -- but a lot of folks have never been in a serious car accident either , and that don't make seatbelts and good tires a bad idea . And no , -- the .45-70 ain't primo choice if you are unfortunate enough to get a big one at close range , that means business . ---------- MMCOUGAR . NRA Benefactor Member ---- 2nd Amend. -- They could have said , " The Right of Such a Militia " ; ----- But they didn't , they said " . . . . . The right of the PEOPLE " . | |||
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Off the meds again tonight MMconcolor??? Now your calling for a renewed extermination of all griz/brown bears to protect us outdoorsman?? WOW, thats all I can come up with on that one. | |||
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I noticed the most popular calibers used by hunters in AK are 2 I own 30-06 & 300wm but I also own a 45-70 and one not on the list a SW460mag which fires 454 casull & 45 lc.The best rifles are the ones you're most familiar with and can operate with precision and accuracy.Several of my friends have hunted with a 300wm taking Griz in AK,black bears,elk,mule deer in CA,CO,MT,WY,UT,AZ,NM.When one friend heads to Africa he uses one of the PH's rifles for his big game hunts less hassels with the native border people.I've read lots of threads here about what mega mag to use for what animal but it's all BS.Use what you want & ignore everything else. | |||
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I'm no expert,but the 45-70 seems marginal as big bear medicine to me. Ask professional hunters what they recommend for clients. I'll bet 338 and up. "shoot quick but take your time" | |||
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Here is a professional bear guide and he seems to think its up to the task. You have to see what a quality bullet at 400+grs at close to 2000fps does to an animal, its very effective out to 150-200 yards.
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