This board tends to have the best and most ethical Alaskan guides on it. This is with Jake, Phil and James Tilley for starters and I know that others lurk. I have been mulling a persistent problem that I have been seeing. The wild west guiding scene is causing problems for different species and for old time operators. Some people are willing to go rogue for the almighty dollar. This I believe has always been the case but with the economic conditions of the state I believe we are due for a rash of unethical rogue operations to mystically appear.

I also have the feeling that several outside "hunter" agencies are tilting the hunting landscape to be non-sustainable. This goes against the Alaska state constitution. The problem is ramping up and not getting better with the huge divisions and the smaller areas available for resource use the old Alaska is not only gone but buried, dug up and pee'd upon.

I am just wondering what guides think of a couple of things that I have been mulling over in my head.

1) Professional certification- A rogue unethical guide presently can get away with game violations as long as they employ the best legal defense. My view is that guides undergo a professional oath like teachers do with a state trooper and face losing their license if they operate unethically. A group of older guides would investigate infractions and determine who would lose their license. They could also award best practices awards and develop a 501 K retirement system that would provide for guides in their old age.

2) Certification- A guide needs to be in the field with their clients at least 1 time every year. This can be at their outfitting headquarters but there needs to be some direct connection with the operation.

3) Guides need to have a direct influence on BOG operations. This needs to be out there so guides do not fall on the bad side of the stick.

4) A new organization like the Alaska Trophy Hunters Association that was ran by Frank Cooke needs to get started. This becomes an educational arm of proper game and resource management and gives back to the community.

This is just my view but presently I think that there are several areas that are getting hammered by both guides(slapstick operators and residents)and need some kind of direction.

Sincerely
Thomas

Thomas, You pose some really interesting ideas that I'll need time to think about. I will also bring them up with APHA - for what it may be worth

Thanks alot

Thomas, After giving your ideas some thought I think that while they are all good, implimenting and enforcing them might be tough.
1: If rogue guides are not deterred by laws then a few addition regulations aren't likely to have much effect. As for the 501 K retirement, it sounds like a nice idea and none of us guides have any sort of retirement but where will the money come from and who would manage it?
2. Guides are required to be at least in the game unit during the hunt and have to swear that they had personal contact with both the client and the guide.
3. Guides do have the same access to the BOG as anyone else and we usually try to make sure someone is at all the meetings
4. I agree completely that we need an educational arm and will talk with APHA about it

Thanks again

Phil-

My concern is that it seems that the very best most ethical guides that follow the lines of Hal Waugh/ Andy Simons or even in your footsteps are often skirted by those folks who are willing to bend for their clients. I know that its tough to break into your business but two very prominent cases recently showed that good legal counsel can allow a guide to continue to operate after they have been caught.

That kind of legal shennagins is found in many different areas of life but in teaching the Professional Teaching Ethics Board that is made up of old teachers who can determine what is "fishy" and what isn't has control over revoking a teaching license. Imagine guides in your age bracket and status that decide that a guide in question should be reprimanded or have their license revoked no matter what the legal counsel or decision may be. The fact that there will always be rogue guides is not lost on me but the fact that a certification and ethics element would provide a bit more luster to the guiding business.

The 501K system would work like it does for public employees you can put in pre-tax money into a 501K fund for retirement. This would make the profession of being a professional guide more standardized and help some of the old guides who kind of struggle in their old age.

I always have wondered about outfitters and clients and how many actually make it out to their camps. I will tell you an interesting story someday about it.

The educational arm would help get young alaskans into the guiding industry. I know that Bob Fithian has a guide school this year but I am wondering if more effort was made by guides visiting schools that the PETA bunny huggers would be deterred. I openly promote hunting in my class and you would probably would not be surprized at how many young students want to hear every detail of my hunts or learn about the history of guiding and professional hunting in Alaska.

The BOG is being heavily influenced by several outdoors advisory agencies. Some of these agencies have more say about a resource that the guides who have an intimate understanding of the resource do. My view is that the BOG really needs to think about setting up some smaller guide area advisory groups that would have a stronger tie to population dynamics.

I do applaud everything that you do and give back to the community. I think that it sucks that the only time you hear about guides in the newspapers is when they violate the laws and not those who give back and who manage the resources. The road of a guide is a rough one but it is one that is proud and full of a tremendous history.

Sincerely,
Thomas

Thomas, I would love to sit down and talk with you for a few hours after my season is over. You have some good ideas that make sense.

Define

quote:

legal shennagins

Do you mean that the out come was not to your liking?

In Alaska we have had two prominent recent cases where guides violated Alaska state game laws and were found guilty- They hired the best legal counsel- the guides were fined and had their cubs taken but were allowed to continue to hunt.

This was a black mark on Alaskan Guiding and the long time established guides of the area are still ticked because they were trying to keep a upright straight operation.

In the educational field a teacher who violates Alaska state law might get off in court but the PtCB after investigation and determination would take their professional license.


Sincerely,
Thomas

The best lawyers the world has to offer can't do anything outside the Law. If you don't like the law then talk to your representitive

I may seem like a Kibitzer to you but I have conversed with more than 150 guides both active and retired in the last four to five years.

The up and comers are getting based outside of Alaska. We have this Jim Shockey Outfitters thing popping up and with the limits of DNR and BLM land use policies you are going to see wholesalers and card cutters with big legal supports winning over the old school mom and pop operators. This is just my view and maybe Jim Shockey is a great guy but I don't want the guiding industry shift to be based outside of Alaska like the commercial fishing industry and many of the Petrochemical workers. People based in Washington who take from Alaska and do not build the long term connections with the state to run it straight and right.

My discussion is why are there less than 50 guides belonging to APHA and more than 500 registered in the state? The old notions of doing what is right and caring for the resource is getting lost and everything is getting argued in court.

We have bad teachers in Alaska. They get noticed and it makes headlines but they lose their license, guides have been able to dodge bullets because of this. A guide ethics board would know where the "bodies" are buried and would know when to support a guide who made a mistake versus a rogue guide.

Sincerely,
Thomas

Has the guide business become so successful & lucrative that it has attracted the out-of- state operators/interests & rogues? Same question applies not just to AK but also to Can., West. US, Africa, etc. I think that is what has caused the problem. Thus, is regulation, whether gov't. or self regulation by the industry, the answer. Or, is there a better alternative?

Too often self regulation is just self-serving. True of APHA? There are also problems whenever gov't. gets involved; they often, if not usually, muck things up.

There have always been rogue guides who eventually get called on the carpet. They all eventually get caught. However, Alaska has a very limited set of resources that are what would be called "guide worthy". These are areas that have huntable populations of trophy animals.

Alaska has no set limit of the number of registered guides. This means that after a large area of Alaska has been closed off by Federal, Mental health Trust lands, Native selected lands and other areas that the actual of amount of land is limited. It just so happens that when there is a limited resource and lots of guides pushed into a smaller and smaller area that those guides most willing to bend start appearing.

I am generally behind the less government is more but imagine that somebody decided that they would lose all electrical, plumbing and building codes and let anybody build whatever they wanted. Would you who saved up all of your money through a long period of your life be willing to chance it?

My Proposal is just that. However, I do see an increase in the "shady" guides talking about doing a couple of hunts this fall because the economy is in the crapper and people are willing to jump on a bargain and ask questions later.

Sincerely,
Thomas

licenses should get getting pulled left and right, but plea deals tend to just get soft fines tossed around and bad guides are still guiding. i've only been in this for 14 years but i've only been checked by a trooper once. no enforcement in some areas and BGCSB just creating more laws instead of enforcing the ones we have (what happens in a small fraternity when the board knows everyone in the seats)...i think that would be the best place to start. enforcement of whats already been set in the books.

The main problem with enforcement is that the troopers are spread thin and when they are after the biggest crooks they usually need to spend considerable time and money to make sure their cases stick.
And then there are the real crooks who are clever enough that even after they get busted and loose their license they continue to operate using someone else as the front.

totally agree on being spread to thin....which makes me wonder why more laws will change anything. with no one to enforce them..?

I know a lot of Brown shirts and most are hard working and dedicated but as they are troopers first and formost they routinely get pulled off F&G stuff to attend to "public safety" issues. Without adequate overtime, if they want to do F&G work they have to do it on their own time.

I am not a proponent of any more draconian regulation towards the guiding industry. One thing I have seen in my 32 years in the business has been that the guys who don't want to play by the rules become very creative in finding ways around the law leaving the good guys struggleing to comply.
If you want to push the small guy out of the way to bring in big money and outside interest, convolouted new laws are a good way to do it. The Mom and Pop operations are the ones who can't afford to hire a lawyor to do their taxes and make sure they are complieing with the goverment paperwork.
Many guides in AK fly, very few of them have 135 operations for the very reason that it's just to much regulation.
The industry and the resource would both be better served by hireing a couple more brown shirts for the field than hireing any more burocrats.

No bureaucrats. The ethics board would comprised of guides. Guides understand that you can have a client that is an idiot stick and can do the wrong thing. What I am advocating is less legal regulation and more internal policing.

I think guides seem to know more of who is violating than almost everybody else. In teaching, I am obligated to report a professional violation but also obligated to keep completely confidential about it. It would work the same way.

One of the biggest elements of being a guide is to be able to judge character. I think that guides might have a better grasp on the ethics of stuff related to the resource and Alaska than attorneys.

Sincerely,
Thomas

Guys, get guys involved with the Boone & Crockett Club; they promote fair chase and have helped to support and create many game laws.

Also, how about doubling hunting license costs and having that money go to more troopers and overtime?

Another thought: Have all outfitters agree to charge $1000 extra per client. Then create a foundation and donate that money to the foundation to use to pay for more trooper enforcement?

Conserving our wildlife for future generations and for future generations of hunters is not only essential but it is your responsibility and my responsibility and our responsibility. Do something about it.

There are some issues in our Alaskan constitution that do not allow for ear-marking of funds for individual projects.
Overall Alaska has done quite a good job when compared with most other states but we have another problem - and that is that the Feds claim jurisdiction for F&G management over much of the state.
It is not a simple solution.

Good day Phil, any update to provide us? Any other ideas to reduce/poaching?

I also heard (maybe only rumors), that some Dall Sheep are being taken by hunters that don't meet min. requirements- seems like the guides then broom the horns on rocks so that the sheep can pass regulations- anyone caught yet? It would be a shame to have this happen...