Hello all!! I am looking for a good bear gun. I live and hunt in British Columbia, Canada. I run into alot of black bears and the odd grizz. I'm starting to see more and more grizz. I cant seem to settle on an all purpose gun. I've had a .444 Marlin, 45/70 Marlin Guide Gun, a .450 Marlin guide gun, a .375 H&H, a 30 06' and a 7mm mag. Curently I own a .270 WSM. With the exception of the .270WSM none of the above realy turned me on. I can only carry one gun at a time, what should it be??? I wish I could own many guns at once but funds are low so I am usually forced to sell or trade in order to get the next one. Most of my hunting is for Mule Deer and Black bear, in open and dence forest. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

I would say use the most (horse power) gun you can shoot accurately. Your life might depend on it one day

Mountain_man

Griz, huh? Mule deer, huh? Timber and/or open country, huh?

"Always carry the stick that is big enough to kill the largest critter in the woods," says Stinky.

Since your familar with the WSMs, why not got with the .325 WSM or a .338 Win Mag. With the right load/bullets it should do it all.

The .338 Win Mag has been around for awhile and has a great reputation and factory loads to match. A little over kill for mule deer, but dead is dead.

The .325 WSM in the shorter actions (especially the Kimbers 8400) would be great to carry, but they are a hand full to shoot. I like new stuff and I think in the Winchester Mod. 70 they have a 24" bbl.

I always thought that the lever guns you mentioned have their place, but like some other cartridges, they are more of a speciality gun/caliber, than a do all (timber or open country cartridge).

I also have a .270 WSM and it would be better than a sharp stick against a Griz, but I wouldn't look at it as a Griz cartridge.

I think it prudent to carry a gun/cartridge that is equal to the task of the largest critter you may encounter. Even more so, if that critter may want to knaw on a leg or two, while waiting for the main course.

Either a 45/70 or a 375 H&H is probably your best bet. Keeping a wood stocked lever with its tube magazine from rusting seems like a lot of work to me. A bolt rifle is probably your best choice. I have had 3 375 rifles, my 2 favorites both had @ 20 inch barrels. The first a SAKO Handy rifle with a Mcmillian stock is now owned by my brother. I know use a Blaser R-93 with the 19 3/4" tracker bbl. It is very handy and very accurate to at least 200 yards, the fartherest I have shot it on paper so far.
As a plus you can use bullets in the 235 to 260gr. range for smaller game. Loaded ammo is easy to find and with 300 grain bullets it is adequate for any bear. I would want a scope in Quick Detach mounts with iron sights.

I would carry the 7600 Remington 30-06. Load it with five 200 grain X bullete or 220 grain Partitions and don't worry about a thing. Its worked for me for many years. With this gun I can place five shots in as many seconds and hit the target. I could not get off more that two at the most with any bolt I have owned.

A .376 Steyr on a Mauser W/22" tube W/open sights, 1X4 VXII on QD mounts Works for me!!

M-M:
I have a suggestion but it most likely won't be popular. Seems as though I'm talking to a wall everytime I recommend it. However, since you're not looking at bear hunting but only protection, I'd really recommend a 12 ga. pump shotgun. Specifically, one designed for deer hunting with open sights such as an Ithaca Deerslayer. I think Mossberg has a similar model too (Mod. 500?). I'd lean towards to Deerslayer since it feeds & ejects from the bottom so less chance of twigs, leaves, or anything else getting in there & gumming up the works. As I recall, it holds 5 rounds so I'd load slugs as the 1st 2 - 3 rounds going into the magazine then feed about #2 shot shells for the rest.

With a bear in your situation you have to: 1. Kill him out right
2. Immobilize him or
3. Turn him

If you're up close & personal, the easiest, safest thing is to turn him. Both #'s 1&2 above are kinda dicey and with # 3, you can always go back later to look for him if necessary.
On top of all that, in this type situation, you're adrenalin is gonna be up - with a shotgun you don't have to "place" the shot perfectly - just point & shoot.

Never could understand recommendations of using the biggest, baddest ergensplittenloudenboomer for something like this. One final comment. Years ago, an old timer named Red Adney who was a miner/guide up in the Brooks Range used a shotgun for this very situation & Red didn't like bears. It worked very well for him but unlike most of us, he was very cool when up close to a large bear. Just my thoughts.
Bear in Fairbanks

Bear in F.

Using a shotgun for personal defense against Griz could get you seriously killed!

Penetration with most slugs is awful, even worst with OO. No way would I ever rely on a shotgun against Griz. B.Bear OK, never Griz.

We did test of shotgun rounds on an automobile. Some slug wouldn't even make through one door, none made it through both doors. And to use that on a Griz, well, it would be better than a sharp stick.

IMHO.

If your talking lever gun, Browning BLR in .358 Win.
If a bolt then the Rem. Guide gun mod 673 in .350 rem mag.
I am assuming your thinking lite, handy, hard hitting, accurate and good to 250 - 300 yds and a medium bore.
If your a handloader I'm thinking the Speer 220 gr hot core would be deadly as hell! I kinda favour the 220-225 gr. as the best weight for these two.

I like Jims idea also the pump 06 would fill the bill & then some.
Might need to be a hair pickier with your rifle maintenance tho.

quote:

---

Originally posted by CK:
I would say use the most (horse power) gun you can shoot accurately. Your life might depend on it one day

---

The topic that grab my attention was the heading "Bear Gun". I still go with above quote. All the lead/powder in world can not save you if can't hit your target. Having successfully fending off an actual bear attack, I can say these encounters happen so fast that there's no room for error. Shoot the biggest round you can handle, and practice, practice and more practice were it is almost second nature. Hopefully you'll never have an encounter. Mark Twain once said, "It's better to be safe a 100 times then get killed once".

I have owned four of the Remington pumps. One in 270 and three in 30-06. They work. No jams , no failures to feed and very accurate. All of them would shoot 1 1/2 inch on their worst day. There are quite a few 35 Whelen Remington pumps floating around as well. One of those would be even a bit better.

quote:

---

Originally posted by StinkyTaters:
Bear in F.

Using a shotgun for personal defense against Griz could get you seriously killed!

Penetration with most slugs is awful, even worst with OO. No way would I ever rely on a shotgun against Griz. B.Bear OK, never Griz.

We did test of shotgun rounds on an automobile. Some slug wouldn't even make through one door, none made it through both doors. And to use that on a Griz, well, it would be better than a sharp stick.

IMHO.

---

I was watching a documentary about polar bears in Churchill, Canada and there was a little old lady shown right after she dropped one of the bears on her porch with her shotgun. I don't think she had slugs in it, just 00 buckshot. Last winter, a brown bear was shot and killed with a shotgun somewhere around Juno, I think. The bear had entered some hotel, and was looking for food. An officer walked in, and the bear closed in. He shot it from a few feet away.

Bears are killed quite often with shotguns in Alaska. But if I was going to use a shotgun, I would only use slugs as recommended by the USGS office in Anchorage (no 00 buck shot followed by slugs).

Also, since the original poster already has a .45-70 and a .375 H&H, it would not make sense to buy some WSM and the like, since he would have to solve the problem of getting ammo for a gun that worst of all, he is not proficient with. Bear defense is not related to long range shooting, so a shotgun, a .45-70, or a .375 H&H are just fine. But use .300 grains bullets with a .375 H&H. If you want to use bullet weights under 300 grains, buy a .338WM.

Ray

My take on what he posted was he hunted B. Bears and mule dear in the open and in the timber.

He also need a rifle for defense against Griz.

The .375 H&H he mentioned would work, but those guns are heavy to carry. Further, If I understood him, he needs to trade one rifle for another, because his poke needs to be increased.

The shotgun would kill any bear if hit right, but it would not be the one for which I would want to rely on if being charge (unless that was all I had). This is based on my own personal experiences with penetration. Maybe given a better slug, I'd change my mind.

The shotgun is further lacking as a long distance mule deer/b.bear round. Again, this is what he prefers to hunt.

The fact that Kimber 8400 rifles are very light to carry and can be obtained in a very potent caliber .300 WSM or the newer .325 WSM (recommended) makes sense in the light that he already has and is shooting the new .270 WSM. So, from that statement, the .325 WSM makes total sense to me as it doesn't seem that ammo is a problem to him.

What ever he decides, I would only recommend that he'd use enough rifle that could stop a charge.

ST:
I took his post as asking about ideas for a defensive forearm while in the bush for protection should he come up close & personal with a bear. I wasn't taking hunting into account. Perhaps I misinterpreted what he wrote.
Bear in Fairbanks

Hello
Yea, let's just remember, we are talking close up and personal here. My view is that the most important thing under the situation would be the ability to get off at least one well aimed shot, the aim of which would be to distract the bear from his immediate desire, you. The thing with large buckshot is that aim ain't that critical and having personally blown a Grizzly skull into small fragments, I can tell you it doesn't take much. Let's not forget Bella Twin and her litle single shot .22.

Thank you all for the good advice. I may have solved my problem. I just got an awsome deal from my local gunsmith. A custom .35 Whelen unfired built on a Mauser action. It has open sights and is parkerized. The barrel is a little shorter than I would like(20") but I did say I hunt in heavy bush most of the time. It should be handy. It does need a new stock but thats not a problem. Some guy had it built but never picked it up, his loss my gain. $400.00 Can. Thats about $100.00US or so it seems Again, thanks for all the good help.

Oh yeah, I can also keep the 270wsm at that price!!!

You lucky dog The whelen performs quite well even with a 20" tube. You'll have no problem pushing 250 gr to 2400 fps. I'd take that over any shotgun, any day.

You can also load 225's to 2600 or better, which makes it as flat shooting as an -06, yet harder hitting as well.

quote:

---

Originally posted by StinkyTaters:
Ray

My take on what he posted was he hunted B. Bears and mule dear in the open and in the timber.

He also need a rifle for defense against Griz.

The .375 H&H he mentioned would work, but those guns are heavy to carry. Further, If I understood him, he needs to trade one rifle for another, because his poke needs to be increased.

The shotgun would kill any bear if hit right, but it would not be the one for which I would want to rely on if being charge (unless that was all I had). This is based on my own personal experiences with penetration. Maybe given a better slug, I'd change my mind.

The shotgun is further lacking as a long distance mule deer/b.bear round. Again, this is what he prefers to hunt.

The fact that Kimber 8400 rifles are very light to carry and can be obtained in a very potent caliber .300 WSM or the newer .325 WSM (recommended) makes sense in the light that he already has and is shooting the new .270 WSM. So, from that statement, the .325 WSM makes total sense to me as it doesn't seem that ammo is a problem to him.

What ever he decides, I would only recommend that he'd use enough rifle that could stop a charge.

---

You are correct. I was mostly thinking about bear defense.

Im only thinking of my 12 gauge Winchester Defender loaded with 600gr Brenneke slugs. The faster you can cycle the better. Or I would consider my 450 Rigby.

Just one thought on probably the most popular thread to start and perpetuate on Alaska hunting forums. To those who toute guns that have large magazines and allow fast follow up shots. In a real close in charge, you should expect to only get off one shot. So, is the round you choose capable of stopping or killing with just one shot?

That is one of the many reasons I got rid of my shotgun. The only rounds that I have confidence in with the one shot criteria start with the 375 H&H, and go up.

Paul H

A very good point.

There is currently an article in Rifle magazine about a fella that has lived and guided in the AK bush for several decades. He addresses this very subject. I found it interesting that he prefers lever action, big bore rifles. If I recall correctly, he is currently using the 45-70. From what I have read, it seems many of the guides up there use this combination. Check out wildwestguns.com, of AK, for thier take on the subject.

I would go with a bolt action 375H&H.

My hands-down advice would be a .375 H&H in stainless/synthetic with 20" bbl and a good set of ghost-ring sights to keep it short and handy. If a scope is needed a compact 2x7 Burris or Leupold will make it suitable for any use on the planet.

PS: Mountain_Man... After my response I went back thru and it was then that I saw your more recent update ref the .35 Whelen you found. NO fault can be found for this round, so you've got a great all-purpose rifle there! I've heard nothing but good of the .35 Whelen over the years. I think that 20" bbl will prove quite handy for your purposes too. I'd go with 250gr Nosler Partitions and never look back...

This thread has been quiet for several days, but here goes anyway. I plan a move to AK in the next two years, where I plan to guide, as I have here in CO for over 20 years. I shoot a .300 Jarrett, pushing 200 gr Accubonds at 2980 fps. I believe I can push the 250 gr Hawk's at around 2700. On paper this load will generate around 3900 ft lbs. Is this sufficient? I am also investigating having a Rem 7600 pump rebored and chambered for the 375-06 improved. I like the speed and quick recovery time of a pump. Any comments? I am also considering the 45-70 or the 405 Win. lever guns.

Have you looked into guiding requirements in Alaska?

I would think a 338 win mag would be a better choice then your 300 pushing 250's at the same speed.

Lots of rounds can kill bears, I think the 416 Taylor might just be the ultimate round, 350's @ 2500 fps, and recoil that is managable. I have a 458 Lott and a 500 Jeffrey, and their recoil is on a whole different plane then the 40's and under.

If I understand, one must serve as an apprentice for 3 years before becoming elegible to register as a master guide. Is this close? I'm single, owe no money anywhere, (don't have any either ) and my daughter will be out of school when I go. I'll have the time, and it is what I want to do. I found a deal on a 7 mag Browning BLR that I couldn't pass up today, so eventually that will become a big bore just for this purpose. Thanks for your comments on the over-40-cal rounds. I wish to keep recoil on the low end of this scale. I read a post somewhere recently that it doesn't take an elephant killer to handle the big bears.

Correct on working as an assistant guide for 3 years, I was wondering if you've hooked up with a master guide to work under? The other deal is how hunting areas are alocated to guides. Once you have your master guides licencse, what area will you guide in?

That system kinda keeps new guys from breaking into it, not to mention the high costs of opperating in the bush (planes, boats, tents, etc). Trying to raise the capital to get outfitted while working as an assistant guide might be kinda tough. There is always the rest of the year to earn a living. I couldn't imagine a more rewarding job then getting paid to work in Alaska's wonderful wilderness. It would be interesting if Phil Shoemaker would chime in on the guiding situation, you might want to start a new thread and get his input.

It may not take an elephant gun to kill an unwounded bear, but when they are wounded, more gun is better than less gun, so long as you can shoot it straight. A bear that has recieved a fatal shot can do alot of damage before he dies.

As for starting my own biz, I'm don't know if that is the route I'll take in the long run. I may be content to guide and let someone else deal with the business end. I guess I'll know more as I learn about how things work up there. I'm just starting to research and have not yet even contacted any guides about working for them. I've looked into the .416 Taylor, and sent a message to a 'smith about the feasability of a rebore/chamber to this or similar rounds. Your point was well made about dealing with a wounded bear. If you have any suggestions concerning reputable guides to work for, or other common misconceptions etc. made by folks like me looking to go up there, I'd be glad to hear them. I'll start another thread on the alaskan hunting forum. Thanks.

I use my 416 rem mag model 700 with 22" barrel as my tent gun and brush gun in Alaska.I load it with 410 gr woodleigh bullets going 2400 fps.I think it should handle any bear in Alaska even charging.I have felt uncomfortible ewven with my 338 win mag when they are too close.I use my weatherby 338-378 in the open tundra.If I had taken it last year instead of taking my 338 win mag I would have taken a nice griz.It was just a little too far for the 338 win mag.I use 250 gr nosler partitions in the 338-378 and in the 338 win mag also.You can never have too much gun for any bear!!!

Sounds like you are looking for a good hunting gun in bear country and I think you found it in your new .35 Whelen Mauser....very cool combo.

As for a full time bear whacker, anything from .338wm on up is popular. I like .375H&H & up alot better, I don't think any .30 cal makes a great bear (especially a wounded bear) stopper though many have dropped to them. Alot of dirty work is due to the short comings of shooting skill and the .30 cal or a combination of both. I love my .375 H&H, but have been toying around with the idea of the .375 wby. I use 270 gr. (Barnes X or Failsafe) bullets most of the time with the exception of late fall bear, yes it is still a better stopper than the .338 with 250 grainers-what hogwash.

The best might be one of the 416's. An interesting choice might be the .338 rum. the recoils a bit sharp for alot of hunters and have seen a poor shot or two with it. My friend who I guide for uses one masterfully though. I have seen more guides use .338's than any other cartridge, so it must work or there would be a serious shortage of alaskan guides.

As anyone can see this topic is open to as much opinion as the 1 perfect gun. Is there any 1 perfect gun for bear or anything else? Don't think so-not for every one or every situation-only you as a hunter or guide know what gun/cartridge gives you confidence in the situations you will face frequently. Therefore what works best for me in my situation might not work best for you & so on, it is fun to debate and chatter on about though.

Cobrad start a topic about your guide ?'s, it should be an interesting one.

-Ron

Grizzly 1, I have started a thread on guiding in AK

I've been in on 3 brownie kills on Admiralty Island. One was my bear the other 2 I was a backup. One with a 338, and the other 2 with 375 H&H's. The 375 is devastating on them if they're hit right and don't have their adrenaline up. Anything 338 WM or up is good bear fodder. The 30 caliber is okay but not the best bearstopper out there, the reason is: The more frontal impact area on the projectile, the better off you are. The 35 Whelen is fine but if I were going with a 35 cal, it'd be the 358 Norma Mag. If I were to bet my life on it though (which is what you're doing), the 45's are superior in my opinion. I'd go for the 45/70, 450 Marlin or maybe even a 458 Win or 458 Lott. The one bear that was shot with a 338 took 2 rounds at 100 yards and 7 more rounds of Nosler 250 grain hot loaded Partitions at almost point blank range before it expired. Lucky for us, his spine was broken on the 1st shot and he was anchored. Their adrenaline gets pumpin, you'll want the biggest round you can handle accurately.

I do most of my hunting in Alaska with a Marlin 45-70 GG with 350 grain Hard Cast @ 2000 FPS and a 338 Win with Sierra 250 BT. I like to shoot big bears in the shoulders, they way it makes it hard for them run off. Once a Big Bear get's up moving he can take alot of lead. The hardcast bullet in 45-70 is excellent for this when loaded heavy as well as the 50 Alaskan.

Load your Whelan with 280 Swifts and your ready for any bear that walks. Don't chrono it as you may start to thinking.

quote:

Originally posted by Yaoughtachoke:
I've been in on 3 brownie kills on Admiralty Island. One was my bear the other 2 I was a backup. One with a 338, and the other 2 with 375 H&H's. The 375 is devastating on them if they're hit right and don't have their adrenaline up. Anything 338 WM or up is good bear fodder. The 30 caliber is okay but not the best bearstopper out there, the reason is: The more frontal impact area on the projectile, the better off you are. The 35 Whelen is fine but if I were going with a 35 cal, it'd be the 358 Norma Mag. If I were to bet my life on it though (which is what you're doing), the 45's are superior in my opinion. I'd go for the 45/70, 450 Marlin or maybe even a 458 Win or 458 Lott. The one bear that was shot with a 338 took 2 rounds at 100 yards and 7 more rounds of Nosler 250 grain hot loaded Partitions at almost point blank range before it expired. Lucky for us, his spine was broken on the 1st shot and he was anchored. Their adrenaline gets pumpin, you'll want the biggest round you can handle accurately.

I know of two hunters, one who was using a .338WM with 250-grain bullets, and the other using a .375 H&h with 300 grainers. Both shot a grizzly several times, and the bear ran into the brush. They waited a little, and then started tracking it. The finally saw the bear, but it was on a full charge. Again they started shooting both rifles, and finally the bear dropped dead. One of these hunters swears to never use .338's and .375's fro brown bear hunting. The last I heard, calibers starting with the .416 were in the picture for future hunts.

Most bears in Alaska are killed with the following three cartridges: .30-06, .300WM, and .338WM. Why? because these three are the most popular cartridges in Alaska, period. Most Alaska hunters are not necessarily hunting bears, but moose, caribou, deer, bison, black bears, and the occasional grizzly/brown that happens to appear.

In my view, a "big bear" gun starts with a .416 caliber and 400-grain bullets.

I took my Brown Bear with a .300 Win mag with 200 grain Nosler Partition bullets, a one shot kill. A close encounter with four Brownies on that hunt convinced me to pack something bigger next trip. I took a .340 Wby loaded with 250 Nosler Gold bullets, then next trip had graduated to a .358 STA with 270 grain North Forks. After using the .416 in Africa I could easily pack it next trip to Alaska in Bear country. I know a lot of people in Alaska, have many friends there that have hunted with lessor rifles for years. Some of them get in trouble with those lessor rifles. I know one who packed a .222 rem for twenty years, got mauled in the twenty first year, no longer lives in the outback. I know another who shot a 30-06 and always said it was plenty of rifle for any Bear. He is now six feet under up there, he killed the Bear but it killed him before it died. The debate continues, I say pack the biggest rifle you can shoot instinctively, if it is not big enough it may get you in trouble someday. Good shooting.

quote:

no longer lives in the outback

The Term I always have heard, here in AK is
The Bush. (To describe remote or Bush Alaska).