Hi there,
You're given the choice of make, model and action as long as it's a shotgun and 12 guage. What would you guys recommend as a purely defensive carry gun against polar bears?

Cheers

spent a lot of time above the Arctic Circle in the oil and gas business. If it has got to be a shotgun(not my first choice). Saw a few polar bears, more grizzlies. They have been a problem up there, if you don't believe me, ask why in some facilities they have two inch steel pipe cages at the exits of some buildings. (It so the people can exit the building, into the cage, check the area for bush wacking bears, and then open the cage and go about their business.)

go with a pump action "Marine Model" Remington 870.12ga

Clean all oil and grease off of it and use a minimal amount of low temperature lubricant. I do not remember what I saw used up there, but mostly they were "dry" I think I remember some of the security guys using dry graphite to give the action some slickness.

You can see temperatures below -50F, after that, you will be inside some sort of shelter, if you are able. (That is not counting wind chill)

put it and ammo in deep freeze and get it as cold as you can, and then shoot the crap out of it. At least a few hundred rounds. Prove that it is going to work.
Oh yea, put on arctic gear, and sling the frozen gun over your shoulder, pull the hood of your arctic coat down so that you have a tunnel if front of your face, and then do a practice run on a full tube of slugs. Wearing mittens, big ones. Reload.

Cheers Low Tech,
I'm a great fan of the 870, I've got 2.
I've been also looking at the Mossberg Maverick and the 500 as viable alternatives. Any thoughts on the Weatherby PA-08?

Agree with low tech. Does it need to be a shotgun? A purely denfensive use means it's going to be close and fast. Penetration can become a problem with most shotgun ammunition. A good projectile properly places will kill most things, but how long it takes and how well it'll be placed is the question. For my money, I'd prefer a short barreled .458 with some practice firing.

One of my friends here works for the phone company. When he worked up in that country They always carried a 12ga or a marlin lever 45-70 but he was always concerned that the long arm was left leaning against the poles when they went up to work. He bought a 44 pistol that he started carrying in a shoulder rig. Long story, short. Several months later a polar bear started climbing up the pole after him. he shot it 5 times and it died at the base of the pole. After the experience he traded the revolver for a 50AE Desert Eagle and carried that every day till he got transferred back down here. He was later given the skull. He is a sensible woodsman but he said those polar bears were terrifying.

Ithaca Deerslayer - hands down.
Receiver is totally protected & so it feeds & ejects from the bottom. First 2-3 shells into the magazine should be slugs & the last 2-3 about #2 or so shot.
You gotta lot more intestinal fortitude than me in allowing a polar bear that close. Oh well, guess them thar bears gotta eat too.
Bear in Fairbanks

My brother skied to the northpole 2 years ago they carried 870's

quote:

Weatherby PA-08

looks like it would be comparable to an 870.

I was always amazed at the local people and their ability to live in that climate. Talked to a few that said a .223 Rem was plenty for polar bears. Maybe we should start a poll?

These guys would take off into the blizzard on snow machines that had every non native hunkered in for cover. Different breed, I left after a few winters, just too cold. Why are you going up? Summer? Winter?

Hi Low Tech,
I've been asked to contribute in a training program for explorations in polar bear territories and the pick of firearms is very miniscule plus the trainees are all non shooters and the UK has some of the most draconian and bullshit firearms laws on the planet. It's turning into a tall order but we settled on 12 guage pumps and 1 oz slug. Best suited for max punch against nonsense regs. Personally, my choice would be 458 win mag and a 629 as backup but the powers that be would have a collective dump at that!

Rem 870 hands down

Thanks fellas,
It looks like the 870 is a clear winner.

quote:

Originally posted by Haggis:
It's turning into a tall order but we settled on 12 guage pumps and 1 oz slug.

I believe your choice of slugs is more critical than your choice of shotgun given the shotguns in question have great open sites and slug barrels. Most slugs are too soft I have a friend in Juneau who experienced a near fatal experience because of the slugs he had to use on a 9ft bear with the shots having the correct zip code. Brenneke slugs are by far the best factory slugs to buy, the Black Magic Slugs are made exclusively for penetration on bear, the 450 grain 2 3/4 or the 600grain 3 inch will do the job.

For a shotgun my choice is a Remington 870.
I prefer the 18" barrel over the 20".

Any thoughts on the Winchester 1300? I am not high on Remington (discussed elsewhere) and my Winchester Model 12s are so slick and a pleasure to use, that they are my personal benchmark. However, I would not beat them up in the far North. 1300s are easy to find for modest prices. I also have a Browning BPS pump which is fine but not as desirable to me.

Haggis, the Rem 870 short barrelis an excellent
choice. The slug ammo though, I would reconsider utilizing Hevi-shot buckshot. The reason I mention the above is a moving target with brush and alder issues. If the slug were my choice then I would go with a more power firearm like a large caliber rifle. Buckshot on the other hand does have a pattern which allows for less aiming error on a moving target. Think about it and I hope you the best and a safe journey.

quote:

Originally posted by aktoklat:
Haggis, the Rem 870 short barrelis an excellent
choice. If the slug were my choice then I would go with a more power firearm like a large caliber rifle. Buckshot on the other hand does have a pattern which allows for less aiming error on a moving target. Think about it and I hope you the best and a safe journey.

Ditto's

Buckshot backed by slugs is a good combo but a large caliber rifle would be my 1st choice.

Although I have never tried it - I would say buckshot is a BAD idea unless you are talking about point blank range. There are normally 9 pellets and each is less potent than a 32 acp.
I only know one man who tried it and he said that at 10 feet the shot peeled a lot of hide off the bear's head, but otherwise had little effect other than really pissing the bear off.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Although I have never tried it - I would say buckshot is a BAD idea unless you are talking about point blank range. There are normally 9 pellets and each is less potent than a 32 acp.
I only know one man who tried it and he said that at 10 feet the shot peeled a lot of hide off the bear's head, but otherwise had little effect other than really pissing the bear off.

Low velocity and soft buckshot pellets has always sounded like trouble to me. Phil I had been told some years ago that the ADF&G did some kinda penetration study on 00buck and recommended it's use on bears, have you heard of such a study?

quote:

the ADF&G did some kinda penetration study on 00buck and recommended it's use on bears, have you heard of such a study?

This might be what your referring to .. ?
http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152

It's based on the " Bullets / Slugs / Buckshot ", in use at that time ( March 1983 ).

PAPI

quote:

Originally posted by PAPI:

quote:

the ADF&G did some kinda penetration study on 00buck and recommended it's use on bears, have you heard of such a study?

This might be what your referring to .. ?
http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152

It's based on the " Bullets / Slugs / Buckshot ", in use at that time ( March 1983 ).

PAPI

Thanks, not the study I'm looking for, I've read this one in the past.

Browning BPS IN SS. I would use slugs...BRENNEKE. I would have an extended mag tube and a sling.

Cheers,

Matt

Rem 870 12 Gauge ... Dixie Slugs; ".. IXL-DGS is .730 and weighs 870 grs.."

http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html

PAPI

Ok! I'll be the Dick. If your interested in protection from bears why would you pick a shotgun when it is never recommended for "hunting" brown bear. I can't imagine even a 30-06 with a 200 gr controlled expansion bullet would not be better. When I lived in bush AK I took a shotgun with me the first few years on fishing trips and then it dawned on me that this made no sense at all. The last 15 years I carried a 458. No more trouble than a shotgun and a Hell of a lot more effective.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
The last 15 years I carried a 458. No more trouble than a shotgun and a Hell of a lot more effective.

Mark

Ballistics don't lie.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Ok! I'll be the Dick. If your interested in protection from bears why would you pick a shotgun when it is never recommended for "hunting" brown bear. I can't imagine even a 30-06 with a 200 gr controlled expansion bullet would not be better. When I lived in bush AK I took a shotgun with me the first few years on fishing trips and then it dawned on me that this made no sense at all. The last 15 years I carried a 458. No more trouble than a shotgun and a Hell of a lot more effective.

Mark

If I read his comments correctly, coming from the UK, he probably can't just get to AK, walk in a gun shop, and buy a 458, so has to take a weapon with him. Due to the draconian UK gun laws, he has better chance taking a 12ga with him vs larger rifle caliber, which the local authorities would probably squash his app for permit to purchase, Dom.

Dom, you effectively have it in a nutshell.
It's relatively easy for the average person in the UK to apply for and be granted a shotgun license. Firearms are another matter altogether and I wont bore you guys rigid with the protracted bullshit we have to go through for every firearm we wish to buy.
For training purposes, we can use "Section 2" shotguns-a mag capacity not exceeding 2 rounds. We can break in the trainees, 99% of them have never handled any kind of firearm before by using bird shot loads and progressing up to LG or single 0 buckshot. What we are not allowed to do is let the trainees use slug which to my mind is bloody stupid considering that's what they'll be carrying on these outward bound expeditions. We can only demo their use against water jugs etc for effect.
If I was in a situation with a pissed off polar bear, I'd be buggered if I'd grab a 12 gauge as my first choice, it'd be a 458 WM or something with equal authority but the law over here basically says "NO".
Still, we've only got ourselves to blame, we voted in the wankers in the first place!

Haggis,
Glad you piped in concerning your UK dilemma. I believe most of those posting on this thread presumed that this was indeed the reason for the direction of choice being a shotgun. It is truly a sad day for the hunting/shooting community in the UK. We're not far behind you guys if the hunting shooting community here in the US does not wake up and smell the coffee.

I well remember when WW dropped the model 12 and came out with the model 1200 pump gun. All the shooters and gun writers in the USA said the 1200 was junk. About 12 years later I went to Africa for the first time. It totally shocked me to see a WW 1200 in the hunting car. I had to ask others. Three of the 4 professional hunters that I met while there said that they preferred the WW 1200 pump for trailing wounded leopards because they were smooth and utterly reliable. Moral of this story is to use the pump gun of YOUR CHOICE as long as it is proven reliable.

Just an additional " FYI ".

Ithaca Shotguns, were once considered a workhourse (Strongest), with a very reliable pump action..And it's bottom ejection,which makes it handy for " right or left " hand use.

http://ithacagun.com/defense37s.html

PAPI

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
I well remember when WW dropped the model 12 and came out with the model 1200 pump gun. All the shooters and gun writers in the USA said the 1200 was junk. About 12 years later I went to Africa for the first time. It totally shocked me to see a WW 1200 in the hunting car. I had to ask others. Three of the 4 professional hunters that I met while there said that they preferred the WW 1200 pump for trailing wounded leopards because they were smooth and utterly reliable. Moral of this story is to use the pump gun of YOUR CHOICE as long as it is proven reliable.

Theres a reason the 1200 was dropped because it was junk.

Also consider the Mossberg 500 or 835. They work and fit me better than the Remingtons.

The Mossberg CP88 also made the short list and I believe is being used by some expedition organisers.
Dirklawyer,
It will be a very sad day indeed if US shooters suffered even a 10th of the BS we have in this country. It was our "ostrich" mentality that got us where we are today