hi
if you had to choose between these two kind of slugs which one would you choose. of course a rifle in caliber like 458 lott or 50 BMG would be much better but i can't afford them and the new 12 gauge copper slugs need rifled barrel which i don't own.
regards
yes

Since you want these for bear, I would choose the copper solids.

I've used all 3 on deer and the copper solids work best.

I would not worry about rifling as you are intending these to be defensive rounds and at that distance you do not have to worry about stabilization.

The brenneke's have always been given a good recomendation up here, though I question the consistant effectiveness of any slug on bears. I honestly think any centerfire rifle of 30 cal on up is a better choice for bear defense than a 12 ga.

Niether, of the slug choices you listed. If a shotgun was my ONLY choice for bear protection, then there is only 1 slug I would use (the only slug I shoot anymore), Winchester's 3" Supreme Partition Gold shooting a 385gr slug @ 2000fps with 3419ft-lbs @ the muzzle.

Brenneke 3" Gold Magnum... Full bore, hardened lead 600gr bullet at an honest 1300fps, or faster depending on your barrel. The foster design is a poor excuse for a bullet. I've shot ALOT of animals, and nothing in the .30 caliber range holds a candle to a Brenneke. A .338 WinMag is a serious contender, as is a 375H&H, but if I knew all my shots were to be inside of 50 yards, the Brenneke would easily get the nod.

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzly1:
Niether, of the slug choices you listed. If a shotgun was my ONLY choice for bear protection, then there is only 1 slug I would use (the only slug I shoot anymore), Winchester's 3" Supreme Partition Gold shooting a 385gr slug @ 2000fps with 3419ft-lbs @ the muzzle.

while I like the Winchester Supreme Partition slugs and with those slugs and my Hastings barrel equipped Remington 870 I'd willingly go looking for a bear (and leave my Marlin 1895 at home)

as "Yes" states in the original question, he has a smoothbore, and in that case I'd go with the brenneke slugs.

Anyone here ever see how foster type slugs actually "expand"?

USUALLY the hollowpoint front STOPS and the short tries to "flow" around it in a kind of radial "splatter"

AllanD

For bear protection your shot will be close, very close and the Sabot's will perform just fine, I killed a couple of deer shooting the Sabot's through a smootie before getting a fully rifled barrel.

FYI

Several years ago we had a serious bear problem at our dump. They decided before they fenced to transplant 13 bear. They all came back! Since the state had taken the Remington 660 .350 mags from the stream counters and guards, why not try all the different slugs and issue the best to the now shotgun bearing guards. So they proceeded to hammer all the bears! This was State Troopers and Fish and Game, both state and federal.

When all the smoke cleared they went back to the respective offices and checked out there .350 Mags, went back and finished the job.
Not one bear was killed though they were hit many times with the slugs.

Not one slug had the penetration to kill. All
the different brands without exception mushroomed without penetration. I do not remember which ones they used any more, but according to what I remember they used all the different brands that were available at the time.

I would not use Any shotgun nor any slug! In fact I have several shotguns from different people who trade their well used stream guns
for .44 mag's and .454's,45 X 70 etc.

True Story

Hammer

Sounds like something you heard from someone who knew someone who used to be friends with an uncle of the guy who used to work for the F&W Dept... Also it's very apparent you have zero experience shooting slugs. As I've said before, the Foster style slug is pretty pathetic. The Brenneke on the other hand is an extremely formidable round. It does NOT expand, and has more then enough penetration to take any bear, anywhere, period. The 44 mag and 454 Casull are like toys when compared. I know, I have both...

The Foster slug will break apart even on 1/2" green saplings and branches.

I would shoot some scrap trees with both Brenneke and the copper slugs. Brenneke's hit low for me. I would select the one the penetrates the best. The things are already .75 caliber when they leave the barrel.

Personally I have taken deer and Elk only with the 12 gauge slug. However I have spoken with
several of the officers who did the tests and as previously mentioned I can not remember the different brands they used. Yes it has been some years and there are new and better products
coming out over the past decade.

Food for thought: The shoulder and leg bone on a thousand pound Brown Bear weigh more than all the bones on a 250 lb whitetail.

Friend shot a 1200 pound Brownie Bear 10.6 footer with 458 Win 500 gr soft point at 50 yards through behind the shoulders. The second shot between the eyes at 10 feet.

Two guys, one a friend and his friend shot a
9 footer 9 times from two 338's with 200 grain
Ballistic tips before he quit. All shots under a hundred yards. Ever see a wounded brownie run through the alders either towards you or away? It looks like a giant DR Field and brush mower
in Hyper drive.

This is not a who did what or who's idea might or might not be right or wrong. These are real situations with real results. If those of us who live and experience these things can share
we may be able to make anothers hunt more enjoyable.

Take NO CHANCES!

Neal
Kodiak, Alaska

I have never hunted Brown bear. That said, if I were planning to do so, 200 grn Nosler Ballistic Tips would be far from my first choice, regardless of caliber... NorthForks, TSX, Nosler Partitions would be at the top of my list.

I like your term "enjoyable"... I'm sure your friends "enjoyed" the after effects of what was obviously a good adrenaline rush.

hi
I deed a test in my backyard with my guns and loads wich i had.
24 inch hardly packed dry telefon catalog and books and old magazines.
1-22 lr fedral lightning about 5 inches pentration fired from m6 scout.18 inch barrel
2- 410 gauge slug rem fired from same gun nearly 7 inches! with a nice clean hole. it penetrated better than 12 gauge slug
3- 22 mag win 40 soft poit 6½ inches.
4 - 22 mag win 40 gr solid only 7½ inches.
5-12 gauge win one ounce slug fired from savage 24 ewith 24 inch barrel and IM choke 5½ inch penetration . slug totaly desingrated!!!
6- rem 00 buckshot only 4½ inches(less than a 22 lr!!)
7-sellier and bellot special slug 32 gram 7½ inches good expantion but nearly same weight and plastic wad was still atached to the slug.
8- Rio brenneke slug 14 inches!!! with nearly no deformation!!.
9- 3030 Norma 150 fr from savage 24 only 10 inches very nice mushrooming(nearly twice diameter) and when i take the bullet from the paper mantle and core separated.
10-3030 federal 170 grain sp only 11½ inches no separation but more than the half of bullet was gone. much less mushrooming than norma 150 gr
11-federal 170 gr nosler nearly 16 inches !!!! the front part was totaly gone but rear part was found so deep.the champion
unfortunately i havent original brenneke(german made) at home for tesing but i was realy impressed by Rio's brenneke copy and 3030 170 grain nosler. buckshot was a real disapointment . it had less penetration than a 22 lr
next time i am going to gather papers for testing 3006 in following loadings . fail safe 180 and barnes x to compare with silvertip bullets.
regards
yes
ps- the distance was 25 yards a normal short range

Hi Brian

In the stories you referred to.
The one with the .458 was by himself. It was an hour drive home and he was still shaking when he got home. I ended up with the gun as he thought the .458 would kill anything any time any where at the mere presence of the gun. The other two guys sat and watched the bear for an hour and they two were still shaking. Two years later the other buddy took my advise and used 250 grain Partitions and shot a 10.2 bear standing facing him at 30 yards. He hit right of center several inches over the heart and came out the back. Two hours later and .5 miles
away the bear charged and was killed.

I really enjoy threads like (yes). People who actually go to the effort to challenge a product
before settling on something.

When it comes to bear if one listens to his guide and uses the bullet he recommends, that will elliminate two of three requirements for a
uneventfull kill most times. Number three is hitting the animal where he is directed to hit it. Must break the bear down either through both shoulders or the back bone.

Hope this helps

Neal

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
7-sellier and bellot special slug 32 gram 7½ inches good expantion but nearly same weight and plastic wad was still atached to the slug.

8- Rio brenneke slug 14 inches!!! with nearly no deformation!!.

#7 why is it some people consider the wad staying with the slug to be a bad thing?
Many modern shotgun slugs are DESIGNED
to retain their wads.

In the specific case of a Rottweil-Brenneke
slug the wadding is SCREWED to the bottom of the lead slug!

On most the wad is designed to function like the tail on an arrow.

I recall one case in particular, the Fiocci slugs that literally had fins and a shaft like a shortened throwing dart.
the fins actually sat in the propellant as the shell was loaded...


The original idea of a Foster-type slug was that with the heavy nose and "thin" skirts the slug would stabilize like a badmitton shuttlecock, (yeah right and I can flap my arms and fly to africa

Of course if the was is NOT designed to do this it adversely affects the flight, but you have to judge on a case by case basis.

#8
also I suggest everyone stop any discussion of "try them on a case by case basis" in a smoothbore, many slugs are absolutely NOT designed for smoothbore and a slug that arrives even at distances measured in feet (single digits) SIDEWAYS will do nobody any good...(and won't penetrate well at any speed)

the remington copper solid is designed to kill DEER sized animals and probably would not be a great pentrator even in it's intended orientation....(test them if you like but remember that at $4 EACH your research will be costly...

My recommendation for a smoothbore is the Brenneke, if your life potentially could depend on them get the genuine German made Rotweil-Brenneke ammunition.

This is if you choose to limit yourself to a 12ga smoothbore.



AllanD

hi Allan
You are right about wads on europian slugs. the brenneke has screwed wad , but S&B is not screwed it is pressed inside the slug from the behind , probably for giving better flight stability. I have boughy a couple of original brenneke and i am going to test them. when i was young(60-70) i met a french old timer who had setteled in africa(1907-1930) and the the only gun he owned at that time was a french side by side 12 gauge. he told me he had killed all manner of games even elephant with the same gun. he showed me a box of old original brenneke which was intended for hunting in africa and the big 5 . it was loaded with much heavier slug and higher velocity with a steel cap (stahlkap brenneke) att the top of slugs and was loaded to match the governements requirement of if i recall corecctly 4000 or 4500 joul!!!. can you imagin killing an elephant with a shotgun!!! he had pictures in his album. shotgun is a very effective and versatile gun if loaded properly.
regards
yes
PS- i'll be glad if someone tell me about those stahlkap african brennekes if he hade a box of those loads in his collection.

"
Dr Jay Beel, with his bear on our 2001 hunt. Although this picture does not do him justice, this was our second largest bear at just a bit over 320 pounds Jay's first hunt, and with the aid of a Marlin 12 guage and slug, the combination lead to a very quick and effective job. Short and sweet, that seems to quickly end the debate about whether or not the 12 guage slug can be effective on bear. In hunting, placement is everything, proven once again by the results you see here."


This is posted about the bear I killed with a slug

From Jeff Cooper Commentaries:

We have an excellent field report on the results of the Brenneke 12−gauge slug on a buffalo at 9 yards. It
achieved full penetration, destroyed the heart (rendering it inedible), and lodged under the skin at the far side.
It did not drop the beast in its tracks, but it killed him in a few yards. We have always preached that the
12−gauge Brenneke slug is a very efficient defensive projectile for heavy animals − providing that you use it
at short range. Its ballistic shape is poor, cutting its effectiveness down radically as range increases. If you get
involved with a dangerous animal, remember he cannot hurt you if he cannot touch you. If you use your
weaponry properly, at 20−yards and under, you should make out very well.

Many years ago I tested a 12 gauge Brenneke slug on an already dead buffalo. If my memory serves me correctly it was in the ribs in line with the front leg and a little back. It seems to me the result was that it would have worked but that penetration was not as good as I would have liked. I have a bee in my bonnet that it worked fine on the first lung but not so well on the second. It did not get to the skin on the far side.

VBR,


Ted Gorsline

It may just be me but theres a big differance with hunting with shotguns and using them for self defense.

Its apples and oranges. when you got to use a weapon for self defense your luck has gone from good to bad in a heart beat. Nowadays the slugs have improved greatly over the old fosters and if your comfortable with a shotgun, by all means go for it, it does work. I'll stick with a rifle. if it wasnt for gravity I couldnt even hit the ground with a typical shotgun (unless it had rifle sights).