I've had no luck on Big Bore Forum and thought I'd try here:

I decided to have my M70 416Rem plated by Armoloy of Fort Worth Texas with their Armoloy TDC.

http://www.armoloyftworth.com/Armoloy_WebDevelopment/We...rms_Applications.htm

I decided on Armoloy over standard Hard Chrome because it is micro nodular unlike the HC which has micro cracks.

I chose Armoloy of Fort Worth because they've been coating firearms for over 30 years.

They offer the option of Armoloy inside the bore. I cannot find enough independent info on this and would like some input pro and con prior to sending the rifle.

Thanks,
Gary

Gary, I had for example a rifle electroless nickel-wonderful exterior protection bar none. I would hesitate to use anything in my bore but a good solvent and a dry patch. I am not belittling your thoughts just making a suggestion that their is nothing wrong with your bore. You can use electrical tape over the bore to keep the rain,snow or crud out of the barrel and have many years of fine service from your rifle.
regards.

I'm with grizz on this one. Before I did that, I'd really check it out with a couple on smiths. I too use electrical tape over the bore with no problems. Take a couple of more turns of tape around the barrel and you have some extra handy if you shoot your rifle.
I personally wouldn't put any kind of coating as you describe in one of my firearms' bores.
Bear in Fairbanks

Gary,

My primary resistance to coating the bore would be if you'd ever consider having the barrel re-chambered, but in the given chambering, I don't think you'd be considering that. I haven't heard of any before/after affects on accuracy of chroming bores. I do know military rifles with chromed bores last alot longer than unlined bores.

So long as the bore coating is even, I don't see it has likely to cause problems, and I'd see what sort of gurantee they have in the event the barrels accuracy takes a crap after the coating.

I use the tape on my barrels, but it would be very interesting to know what difference the coating made on the accuracy, and the ease of maintenance. To me, if it would keep a good rifle shooting longer, and make it easier to clean, it might be worth the cost. I have a few carbon barrels I wouldn't mind just having just the bore plated and leaving the rest blued.

quote:

Originally posted by Mathsr:
I use the tape on my barrels, but it would be very interesting to know what difference the coating made on the accuracy, and the ease of maintenance. To me, if it would keep a good rifle shooting longer, and make it easier to clean, it might be worth the cost. I have a few carbon barrels I wouldn't mind just having just the bore plated and leaving the rest blued.

I have a few more leads to follow over the phone before I make my final decision. If I go ahead and take the plunge, I'll post feedback on any accuracy problems. I would suspect that I'd need to tweak my handloads. I'd also suspect that some bullets may be less forgiving w/ slight changes in bore diameter. I'm using Northforks for this rifle, so I think I'd be okay.

Thanks everyone for your input,
Gary

I would not armoloy the bore. These types of coatings are known not to be applied with an even thickness. It is not a fault of the person doing the work, it is the fault of the type of product.
Armoloy is good stuff (had three rifles done with it) but my next rifle will wear Robar NP3 coating.
I am considering having a rifle built by a company now and they even told me they have given up on the hard type coatings such as Armoloy because the uneven thickness requires them to rework some parts. When I had my 375 H&H Armoloyed years ago I had to have the coating removed from the bolt face because it changed the headspacing and I was unable to close the bolt on a loaded round.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
I would not armoloy the bore. These types of coatings are known not to be applied with an uneven thickness. It is not a fault of the person doing the work, it is the fault of the type of product.
Armoloy is good stuff (had three rifles done with it) but my next rifle will wear Robar NP3 coating.
I am considering having a rifle built by a company now and they even told me they have given up on the hard type coatings such as Armoloy because the uneven thickness requires them to rework some parts. When I had my 375 H&H Armoloyed years ago I had to have the coating removed from the bolt face because it changed the headspacing and I was unable to close the bolt on a loaded round.

Thanks for your input Snowwolfe.

After reading your post, I suspect that your rifle(s) were plated w/ conventional Hard Chrome by Armoloy and not plated w/ Armoloy's proprietary Armoloy TDC coating.

Armoloy TDC WILL NOT have a build up greater than .0002 of an inch and WILL have a uniformity w/in .000025 of an inch which eliminates any post-coating machine operations.

Due to the process, the coating bonds mechanically and absolutely to the surface.

Armoloy TDC is a micronodular(as opposed to flat), low friction surface finish that permeats the surface of metal. It is measured at 78Rc and has no visible micro-cracks when magnified 500X. It withstands Temps -400 to 1600F. It is resistant to wear measured way beyond the capabilities of electoless nickel such as used by Robar's PTFE NP3.

It is suggested that all of your machine work be completed w/ your parts broken-in prior to application. It cannot be applied to certain materials and is too hard to apply to springs.

Back to your description of your plating job, Armoloy TDC should not have such build up and NP3 cannot be applied any thinner or any more even. Conventional hard chrome plating is very uneven and does have build up on edges. I can see everything you described w/ that.

I have a couple more phone calls to make Monday reference independent information on the Armoloy TDC. I'll keep you posted.

Thanks Again,
Gary

To be honest I have no idea what they plated my rifles with. I had the 375 done about 1998 and the others were done in the early 80's. It was the 375 that had to have the coating removed from the bolt face

quote:

It withstands Temps -400 to 1600F.

man that is pretty cold and pretty da## hot hate to be there and find out if that is false. So far my electoless nickel has not nary a scratch or a buff for the last 5 yrs be interesting to hear way down the road how yours fair. In the bore-yes keeps us informed.

quote:

Armoloy TDC

I would love to hear more about this product, and possibly see some photos of completed rifles.

333 you can go to Armoloy's site. Some pretty interesting facts. www.armoloy-tx.com/tdc-coating.html

I will give them a look. I also was looking at this Company for things like plating the bolt, but my response I got from e-mail was unintelligible. Seemed really odd!

http://www.casidiam.com/

This stuff looks the best of the platings I have seen so far, but like I said I got a very odd answer.

I am considering having a Hein rifle built and this is what they recommend:
http://www.coatingtechnologiesinc.com/benefits.asp

I will look into thier recommendation. Considering thier rifles it is a very good recommendation too!

Have you seen these coatings on a rifle? I see they offer more than just NP3, such as black oxide coatings. I wonder if these are suitable for a rifle? I am hoping to get a high quality and extra durable black coating on the barrel and action.

--- It's been quite a few years , but I've had two weapons -- METALOYED . They were both handguns , -- one customized Contender , and one S&W Revolver .

This is from distant memory , but as I recollect the build-up on physical edges,( that is a problem with some kinds of plating ), is NOT a problem with the Metaloy process .

Also , the actual surface plating itself is so thin , and bonds with the under-metal so well that , there are no mechanical problems generated , with moving parts , or Chamber / Bore dimensions . ( Assuming normal tolerance hunting weapons ) .

If I had a tight-grouping Competition Race Gun , for Bench-rest shooting , High-Power , etc. ; -- or Varmint shooting , Sniper work , Thousand yard or 600 Yd. shooting , etc. ; -- of course you wouldn't want to mess with ANY changes to your bore whatever , unless it was odds-on to improve .

A call to the Tech. folks at these Companies will usually get you lots of info. quick .

I believe Metaloy is similar to Armoloy (?) , although I didn't research it .

My first thought was that such a plating , might tend to fill in pores chattermarks , and other irregularities in a given bore , and increase accuracy in much the same way that lapping does ??

In a rifle that was custom built / set up for precision shooting , ( Palma chambering , etc. the chamber / neck , leade and bore might be tighter than SAAMI anyway , and the plating might be the last enth that creates a pressure problem , -- ( just theorizing here , but these are things you might check out , if applicable , -- or just for gen. info . ) .

Don't know what I'm talking about here , in any technical depth , -- just thinking out loud .

------------- MMCOUGAR .

I made my phone calls and this is the jist of what I got:

All Hard Chrome platings are not created equal. There are differences in the chemical and application process. Some are actual surface coatings whereas Armoloy TDC is not but instead actually permeats the surface of the base metal.

TDC is what the military uses to coat their bores and chambers. TDC was used to finish the bores and chambers of rifles used for bear control in AK.

No record was found of TDC causing any chambering/bolt face tolerance issues. If it were to cause such issue, it could be removed.

Actual field use of TDC in the bore and chamber has proved to greatly increase barrel and throat life. It reduces pressure and increases projectile velocity. No significant accuracy issues if any involving combat or hunting rifles.

TDC is not widely used as a OEM commercial finish due to economics as it would increase production costs and decrease profit margins. Numerous other applied and/or plated coatings are available that are easier to work with and/or are more profitable.

I will have all of the machine work completed on my rifle and have it broken-in to my satisfaction. I will then send all the parts and pieces and have the Armoloy TDC applied including the barrel ID, chamber and bolt face. Once returned, I'll re-assemble and bed the rifle in either a Rimrock or Brown Precision stock. I'll test the rifle and post my results.

Thanks,
Gary

Keep us posted please.

What about Teflon vs. TDC?

http://www.coatingtechnologiesinc.com/default.asp

NP3 is a surface treatment for steel and metal alloys that combines sub-micron particles of P.T.F.E (polytetrafluorothylene) with electroless nickel.

http://www.robarguns.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=4&tabindex=2

ROBAR has a good track record w/ their NP3 coating. I would probably choose this over conventional Hard Chrome because the NP3 goes on thin and even w/out edge build up. As the NP3 wears away it will expose fresh particles of P.T.F.E..

I'm of the opinion that NP3 is probably a more durable choice over most if not all applied finishes such as GunKote, Teflon, Cerekote, etc... But I don't think that E-Nickel is as hard and wear resistant as TDC.

I don't mind if TDC or NP3 has a satin stainless steel finish appearance. If glare becomes a concern, I'll just spay over the rifle w/ paint. Some people care about the color and texture of their finish. Some may want a more durable finish that duplicates a blued gun. In those cases, TDC and/or NP3 may be the wrong choices.

This link has a good overview of the different applied and plated finishes:

http://www.apwcogan.com/Refinishing.htm

There is a chemist who developed an applied finish called Black-T and/or Green-T that is used by the government on firearms and submarines. Though the finish is actually softer than the NP3 and Hard Chromes, it resists rust and is the right color which is why they use it on the subs.

I've dragged a parkerized USMC M40 through muck and mire, carried a rust blued custom York Rifle replica for days at a time in rain and snow, used highly polished blued big bores in the heat w/ salty sweat dripping all over them, and have carried a trusty well used mauser that is covered heel to muzzle w/ Rustoleum paint. This particular new rifle will be a working tool to be used long and hard in foul weather. I decided against stainless steel because I don't think they feel as smooth as an equivelent chrome moly bolt action. I'm going to try the Armoloy TDC finish in hopes that it will be super durable as well as rust resistant.

Take a kid hunting and fishing,
Gary

I am hoping to find the finish I am looking for someday???? I will keep looking for it!

GaryVA, as a metallurgist I'm frustrated by the hype. If the coating "permeates" the metal it shouldn't be called 'plating' but some kind of diffusion coating like case hardening .But a diffusion coating will require heat and you're not talking about that. Between non scientific people trying to explain things to other nonscientific people and the usual marketing hype it's hard to tell what they have.

GaryVA--
I know this is from a year ago, but did you ever end up coating your rifle bore? Just wondering if/how it turned out...

Good Shooting,

Dan

I chickened out on the 416Rem M70. Instead I sacrificed a 375H&H CZ. The rifle is completely reworked but I've yet had a chance to put it back together. All the pieces and parts are still boxed up under my workbench. I don't expect any issues, but I'll post my results.

GVA

Did they require you to disassemble everything?
Pull the barrel from the action, ect? I'm not sure I could do that with a rifle that was shooting well.....

I have been thinking of it, and the only parts I can think of not to coat would be the chamber and the springs.

I will be interested in what you find out.

Thanks,

Dan