Which is best to break down a big bears shoulder in a self defense situation?

Deke.

Self defence will be about a 15' shot with the frontal chest being your target! I'd prefer a cannon if it came to that!

After standing next to a couple of large bear mounts I went and built a 416 to use on them.

If one can have it with you and shoot it fast at close range and hit with it I'll take a bigger gun.

If you can not hit with it fast at close range I'll take a smaller gun that I can hit with any time.

I heard game management in alaska uses the 12 gauge slugs.... are they effective?

within their limitations they are effective, like 15-20 feet.

quote:

600gr black magic

....ok I'm lost folks! Anyone want to throw me a bone on this one?????

Brett

More than likely, your shooting ability with one cartridge over another in this situation would not be a determining factor (close range). Reaction time and steel nerves would be key. You would not have time to think about if the gun was going to kick or not.
Hard to think of a better (off the shelf) gun for this situation than a 416 Ruger Alaskan. Short barrel for easy handling and a short LOP that will not hang up on clothing not to mention the gun is a "beater" for Alaskan weather.
I agree with the post that in a self defence situation you are probably not going to get a shoulder shot but a frontal chest/head shot.
A good 400 gr/416 Soft @ 2400 FPS would put the hurt a bear up close and personal.

EZ

+1 on the Ruger 416 Alaskan....about as good as it gets in this situation. The same version in 375 Ruger will also do if you can't handle the recoil of the 416. Perhaps the only thing better would be a custom based on the 416 Alaskan but necked up to a .458 caliber with a 450gr Swift A-Frame stuffed in the case. Chest to asshole penetration with a BIG destruction path.

brenneke black magic slug. Its about as good as it gets for over the counter ammo in the 12ga for bear defense.

brenneke usa website

My only reservation with the black magic slug is it's low SD and whether it would penetrate enough, however it's shear size may make up the deficiency.... I still wonder if a couple 220gr 30cal softpoints out of a AR10 platform might be as good, the 220 was the choice "in the day" but maybe that was with a measured head shot and not against a charge???

quote:

Originally posted by Deke:
I heard game management in alaska uses the 12 gauge slugs.... are they effective?

Has anything Game Management ever done been efective???
I wish they would manage the mosquito, soon they would be gone too!!

It it is self defense I am certainly not aiming for the shoulder, but rather for the CNS

I am not a fan of shotguns for our really big bears but I do agree that, when discussing stopping rifles, that bigger is better so long as the hunter can shoot it as well as a smaller rifle - and the penetration is adequate.

I know I have posted this photo before - but people keep asking the same question .
It is the last bear that charged me when I was carrying a 30-06.

The key to stopping anything is placement and a 30-06 with proper 220 gr bullets will do the job on anything that walks.

458, sorry to ask you to retell the story but how about the details, range, where you hit it, do you recall the bullets path/damage, why it charged, etc?

The bear had been gut shot by my client and escaped into thick brush. When I caught up to it he charged from appx 20-25 feet. He was coming at a quarting angle and I aimed my first shot hit between the shoulder and the neck - hoping to break the spine. He went down but as fast as i could work the bolt he was immediately back up and coming. Each hit kept him down a little longer and after three he had trouble getting up and I was able to get behind him and break the spine from behind.
From my experience the 220 gr partitions penetrate every bit as deeply as 300gr bullets from a 375.

If there were a shotgun slug that would reliably do that it should make a great stopper - but I have yet to see one.

Wow! What a tale. I would like to think that I could have performed as well as you did under that kind of pressure but if truth be known I would probably have wound up as bear scat!

458Win,
If you could obtain Cheddite hulls and Vectan SP2 powder (this because we do not have any data with American components) I could send some US-S slugs for testing. We didn't find any rifle bullet up to .338 Lapua with factory 250grain fmj bullets that could surpass them in penetration.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

quote:

Originally posted by Lefteris Vassiliadis:
458Win,
If you could obtain Cheddite hulls and Vectan SP2 powder (this because we do not have any data with American components) I could send some US-S slugs for testing. We didn't find any rifle bullet up to .338 Lapua with factory 250grain fmj bullets that could surpass them in penetration.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Lefteris, That is an impressive looking slug and with the velocities you are getting I am also sure it's impact on large bears would be impressive. I have used 680 gr hard cast flat nosed bullets @ 1500 fps in my 505 Gibbs and they penetrate superbly.

I love those 200 and 220 gr. Noslers and I assure you they will put down the biggest black bear with any decent hit..I wouldn't swear to it but I believe the 200 gr Nosler partition out penetrates the 220 gr. Nosler partition..I get that impression on game, but have never done any box tests, but If not I'm bett'en its damn close. It also seems to kill as well or maybe better, but I wouldn't feel helpless with either one, both get the job done and on some mighty big animals.

Ray, what about grizz here in Idaho. Run-ins are becoming more common, this past summerone almost chased down a cyclist in Drugs, and another was filmed on the snake only 15mi from Id Falls, not to mention more maulings incl a few fatal ones around Yellowstone. I guide my kids on both sides of the Idaho/WY border and want a quick backup with enough punch.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

From my experience the 220 gr partitions penetrate every bit as deeply as 300gr bullets from a 375.

Interesting. That is big news. Good to know.

There have been tests done that utilizing the same bullet same gun, that lower velocity can and will penetrate deeper than at a higher velocity. It comes down to deformation mushrooming of the projectile, the higher the velocity the more deformation resulting in less penetration, which kills better??

If its for down south bears . Or really any bear for that matter . A Marlin Guide Gun 45/70 is pretty easy to have with you . As most everyone knows I prefer the 458 s and 416 s . On close range bears they tend to crumple all deflatedly . .on chest shots . If I had to use a girls gun (my wifes 308) . Ide do my level best to hit the bear in the nose .. . But I try to leave the girls guns to the girls .

Shot placement shot placement with a decent caliber and bullet.

Gets the job done.

With placement a given, will a .308win and/or the 12ga slugs do the trick?

Deke

A 308 will .

I have dug 1oz 12ga slugs out of a brown bears brisket and shoulder . Niether made it into the boiler room . Shots were taken from about 12 feet . The bear only weighed 500 lbs .
Incidently . That bear was killed dead with a 416 Rem mag from about 8' distance . Maybe 10' 1 shot in the chest . Instantly down and dead . The person involved was Very Excited shall we say . He shot it the 2more times with the shotgun .

The 416 load was a factory 400 gr. Swift .

I put a finishing slug, a Brenneke 440gr Black Magic, through the shoulders of a 350lb black bear at about 10yds. the slug did not penetrate the bear completely. It was under the hide but still contained within the muscles of the off side shoulder. It weighed 420gr and still had its little plastic "skirt" attached.

It did put the bear down, however, it should be noted that he had already taken two 162 7mm 7x57 rounds in the chest. I'm not that impressed with the penetration, but it put one hell of hole in the bears chest.

I've also shot a black bear with a 45-70 at 25yds facing me that did not go down even though the bullet exited his butt end! That was with the now discontinued 300gr Nosler Partion. The bear bled out rather quickly but ran away from me.

My current bear/turkey/camp pest weapon is a 12ga coach gun with a 20 inch 45-70 insert barrel in the left barrel and rifle sights. I worked on the reloads and tried a few bullets and have settled on a 400gr Barnes Original at 1750fps. Accuracy at 50 yds is more than acceptable. Two 12ga slugs grouped to 4 inches with 3 45-70 rounds.

Gumboot, the blackmagic is a much harder slug than most, others being like pure lead and the bm being hardcast. Do you recall what your slugs looked like?

Montanahunter, I would use the 3" 600gr bm, how would feel about those? Interesting setup with your double!

Deke

There is a considerable difference between soft lead "Foster style" slugs and Brennekes. Typical Foster slugs are intended for deer and are hollow based and will deform very easily.

Years ago I hunted in an area that was shotgun only (using Foster style slugs) and was surprised by the relative lack of penetration on small whitetails, still killed them DRT BUT it was not inspiring as a "big" bear round. I'm sure that they would work fine on broadside shots but that's not a SD DLP situation. A guy I hunted with used a 62 cal muzzle-loader (also legal in that area) and blew through every deer no matter the angle. So, in a "solid" projectile vs. hollow based even lead showed a strong preference for solid. I'm not sure but I think a 62 round ball may weight the same as a 2&3/4" 12ga Foster slug, about 440gr.

The Brenneke being solid and alloy would stand up better, as I experienced on the 350lb bear I shot. Would it have been a better choice than the 7mm round with the bear facing me at approx 23 ft? Maybe, but at that moment I had a load of #5's in the chamber and didn't think it would be a good idea. On follow up I switched to Brennekes.

I was using 2&3/4 inch BM's in my Zoli combination gun since it has 2&3/4 chanbers. I also fired the round through the extra full choke I had in for turkey with no ill effects to the gun though the "fins" on the Brenneke slug were very flat!

The next time I order a bunch of stuff from Midway I'll get a box of the 3" Brennekes and see how they work out in my 45-70/12ga "cape gun". I have a feeling the recoil will be on the "vile" side given the weight.

The thing that would concern me with slugs on bears as defencive rounds is sectional dencity. The front end of a bear is a mass of mussle and the leg bones are serious. Shot placement arguements aside WHAT you hit something with can be as critical as WHERE.

The slugs werre a little deformed but not too much . .
I wasn't the guy that shot that bear . I just helped him skin it out . . We were kind of on the outs until at bear incident . Alot of people there thot I was nuts and grossly over gunned until they saw how useless those 12 ga slugs were. No doubt they were standard deer slugs . .

Most of the time I don't even own a shotgun as for my purposes they ate shomwhat useless
.Experience has proven to me that for bear defense its best to use a rifle in a suitable caliber for hunting elephants with a bullet and load suitable for brown bear . . . . For me .it wasn't broke so I never felt the need to fix it . . .

My advice . .Get a 375 Ruger Alaskan . .shoot the 270 gr factory load for everything from deer on up . . If you ever have to deal with a problem bear / moose / bison / elk of any other varmint you will be good buddies with your rifle .

I'm not sure of the situations other posters here have had. But the Black magic slug will deflate the biggest of bears. I have even punched 20 gauge Brenneke slugs completly through moose, the longest shot was about 40 yards. The 12 gauge slug is 600 grains generating 3000 foot pounds of energy.

Ya , I don't doubt it . But I think I'vr seen Brenneke slugs on the shelf 1 time in 30 years . There have been many times I wanted some and couldn't find them ..

I know myself I would probably prefer Phil's beloved 06 . Which I HATE as to try some shotgun which may or may not work .

At least with the 06 I know I would have to start early and stay late . . If things worked out better then great.

Gumboot458
I'm with you on this one. I have never been a proponent of a shotgun for bear protction. I think a lot of guys look at the 3/4 inch of front end bullet surface and the heavy weight and translate that into power. I have always translated that into "lack of penatration".

I must admit I have very limited experience with the slug on big game and none on big bears I just never had the faith even to try it. My attitude about the slug was however reinforced when I saw a guy shoot a bull moose five times broadside at about ten feet in the alders. When we opened the bull up only two of the slugs actully penatrated into the vitals, I was amazed that one slug hit a rib and did'nt even go through.

I'm sure the brenneke will perform much better than a soft slug but given my choice I would prefer a .30 cal jacketed bullet generating 3000 foot pounds than a big wad of lead doing the same.

Jim in AK I would like to hear more about your experience with the Brenneke's You have a lot more experience than I do and even though I have been potifecating my views against the shotguns I am open to trying the brennekes especially in my drillings.

There was a vidio on youtube a while back (probably still is) about a guy who lived and trapped up in the brooks range. His bear gun was a 12 ga and I know he took a lot of bears with it. I do have to point out however that compareing an arctic grizz to a coast bear is like comparing a Pigmy to a Norwegian sumo wrestler.

Getting back to the self defence issue. What are you doing at the time you need something more than a bottle of hot sauce to keep yourself from becomeing lunch. Hunting? Hiking? Fishing? Cutting wood? Bird hunting? This is going to make a difference.

I spend a lot of time in bear country, both grizz and black bear since I live and play in Montana. It's always on my mind, especailly after last years dance. I have to look at what is practical AT THE TIME.

If I'm hunting in grizz country I carry my 9.3x62 with 286gr NP's. Overkill for mule deer, yes, good on elk, fantistic, works on ANY bear? I'll take Phil Shoemakers word for that.

But what about early Sept when I'm out mountain grouse hunting? I packed a 44 loaded with 250 NP's (discontinued but Swift now makes a partition for 44) Certainly not perfect but better than sticking my finger in a bears eye. In the real world I'm not going to have time to take those loads of #5's out of my doudle and replace them with slugs... From now on I'll carry either my 12ga/7x57R or better my 12ga/45-70. Probably still carry the 44 because I like it and its fun to shoot stuff with it. I'm getting serious about aquiring a drilling, say 12ga/12ga/9.3x74R, sounds good.

Last year turkey hunting I discovered how important it is to be able to handle anything that might come up, however unlikely it might seem. This year I will pack the 12ga/45-70 and my wife says she'd feel better with the 12ga/7x57R than her 20ga single shot. I also learned an important leason about bullets, load for the worst, NP's or bonded bullets may be over the top for deer but they work very nicely on bigger stuff, especially at closer range.

Hiking, fishing, wood cutting? Face it, any rifle or shotgun is going to get set down or at best slung out of the way and maybe not so easy to put into action. Backpacking? Yeah, just how easy is to put a long arm into action in a tent? Or when you are nicely zipped into your mummy bag? On my mind is the incident a few years ago of the poor guy up by Lincoln, I think it was, that was killed and partially eaten by a grizz. They found his rifle leaning up against a tree only a few yards from where he was attacked and killed. I'd rather feed the bear my left arm while I blow its brains out with the 44 in my right than bet I can cover 10 yds faster than a motivated bear.

There is NO one answer, no weapon that will do it every time, everywhere, under every circumstance. I really like the idea of the 600gr Brenneke, but will I remember to take out the load of #5's when I get back to camp, sit down by the fire, get a cold one, BEFORE the damn bear walks into camp? Didn't last time, but the rifle barrel was loaded and ready and it did change the game considerably in my favor.

HunterMontana I think your comments are spot on I can't add to that.

From May through Oct I work every day in bear country and see bears allmost every day. I carry a .44 mag or .454 with me every day for the same reason you mentioned (it will be there and ready when I need it) A jacketed or heavy hard cast bullet from a big revolver will penetrait and ether break a front let or better yet punch through the skull of a bear. You have to be close and keep your cool on the head shot but problem bears are always close. Keeping your head will be up to you.

A large caliber revolver on the hip , shoulder or chest .is pretty much a mainstay for me . Something you like and is comfortable to wear all the time . .. I've stood down Alot of bear encounters with handguns.
In the 30 cal. I prefer the 200 gr TSX or Swift A frame . But in the 308 win . I like 180s . Essespecially out of the 16.5" barrel of the Ruger Compact.

Akshooter.

The Brenneke black magic slug is twice the money way harder and tougher than the average slug. Although I have personally never shot a bear with one I have seen bears hit with them and the results were a really dead bear.

Last summer I did a polish ballistics test where I fired the black magic and the Remington 1 oz slugger into a muddy bank, after I dug them out the Brenneke’s were completely intact where as the Remington’s were in pretty rough shape. The Brenneke slugs also penetrated quite a bit deeper. I do admit, I was disappointed with the results from the Remington slug. The Remington is more of a deer slug anyway and for that they are probibly fine.

There is also the Bdupleks steel slugs out there. I have not personally used them but from what I have read, and some videos I watched of them in use, they look to be worth consideration. I intend to try them as soon as I find some on a store shelf.

But the long and short of it is; If I had to crawl into the alders looking for a wounded bear my weapon of choice would be a pump 12 full of black magic slugs. Mainly due to being able to get more lead on target quickly, and I have faith in the black magic slug.

I no longer guide bear hunters, but the times I did have to go into the brush after bears anything without a lanyard on it made me feel under gunned.

I haven't tried the Brenneke on bear, but... I did see one fired into a big caribou. (facing at 60 yards).

It dropped him instantly but the slug (barely deformed) stopped near the diaphram. I would have expected deeper penetration.
(.338 and .375 Barnes X bullets went end to end on the next caribou)

I think the Brenneke is an excellent choice IF you stick with slugs. I now carry a 16.25 inch barreled 45-70 with 350gr Aframes at 2050fps. It carries a bit easier and I suspect that it will provide much better penetration.

Of course if the shot placement is perfect it really wont matter what we use.

Has any one tried the newer DDuplex loads that use the solid steel slug?? Have a couple of boxes and have played on car bodies and such but haven't had a chance on black bears yet.
They seem to do best in smooth bore so far and do penetrate like the dickens