A client and I just returned from a ten day bear hunt in AK. It lasted only six days officially as we both tagged out early.

We have been having an ongoing discussion as to whether the bears we harvested were browns or grizzlies. The outfitter says they are brown bears, we are not as sure. We were hunting on the Skwenta River in GMU 16B and killed our bears at the following coordinates: N 61 degrees 56.907 minutes, W 151 degrees 44.786 minutes. The bottom line is we both took bears. However, since they were only 7 footers and the picture the outfitter had painted was for 8 and 9 footers we were curious as to whether these bears would be viewed as small brown bears or if a grizzley an average size bear.

Any insight would be appreciated.

FYI,
Your outfitter may not appreciate the GPS coordinates to his hunting area....just out of respect for all guides, their job is hard enough.

Congradulations on a successful hunt. Any bear taken free chase is a trophy regardless of size. Were your bears male or female (the females are smaller)? According to the Alaska Fish and Game site:

'The term “brown bear†is commonly used to refer to the members of this species found in coastal areas where salmon is the primary food source. Brown bears found inland and in northern habitats are often called “grizzlies.â€'

If you shot your bears in relative proximity to a river with salmon, they are more likely Browns that inland grizzlies, even if you are a distance from the coast. If the meat smelled like fish it is a virtual certainty.

Kodiak bears are often considered a separate subspecies because they appear to have been separated from the mainland bears for 50,000 years or so.

Paul

Roscoe: The hunting coordinates were likely not the best idea I had today as you are correct in the most outfitters' jobs are hard enough. However, they have to be registered for that area (GMU) and I do find it hard to believe with the brown bear population explosion in AK anyone would want to horn in on a hot spot for minature bears.

ppod: Mine was a boar, my clients a sow and the sow was the larger of the two by about 5". Most of if not all bear the scat we saw consisted of unprocessed berries and porcupine quills. I am still not sure whether our bears are to be classified as brown or grizzly. I din't notice any specific smell to the bears one way or the other.

I do believe bears taken on the south side of the Alaskan Range are considered Brown bears for B&C purposes.

So I'd say small brownies. But, you did have more days left to hunt, so who knows what may have come along. It's always a tough choice, knowing when to shoot. Bears are hard to judge in the field.

I had 4 days left, my client 8 days when we each took our bear. By day 6 the outfitter had already pitched a fit about having to stay in camp for the full 10 days as he expected me to shoot the first shooter I saw regardless of size. He wanted out of bear camp as he had booked a sheep hunt (too close to our hunt in my opinion)to start one day after the conclusion of our scheduled 10 day hunt. Things had gotten testy with his attitude in camp so I was just as anxious as he was to conclude the hunt.

It was obvious we weren't going to see the 9'bears he spoke of. We initially thought about passing on the 8' bears for a few days in order to wait for the big one to come along. I think we would still be waiting for an 8' bear to come along. Plenty of bear and bear sign, but no really big bears were seen.

Wow, is google good or what?
Brown bear facts:

Taxonomy: While there has been much confusion about the taxonomy of brown bears (Ursus arctos), taxonomists agree there are at least two subspecies in North America -- the grizzly bear (U. a. horribilis) and the Kodiak bear (U. a. middendorffi). There is confusion about whether to consider others, like U. a. gyas and U. a. macfarlani, as separate subspecies. The Kodiak bear has lived separately on Kodiak, Afognak, and Shuyak Islands in southwestern Alaska for thousands of years with no interbreeding with other populations. However, there is no such geographic demarcation between the coastal U. a. gyas and the inland U. a. horribilis. There is a continuum of difference between the larger coastal brown bears and the interior individuals that are generally called grizzly bears. Coastal brown bears have a greater amount of animal protein in their diet, achieve larger size, and have slight differences in coloration. At any point from the coast to the interior there is interbreeding between the populations (Jonkel 1987, p 456-473).

Home Range: Grizzly bears can be found in the Canadian provinces of British Columbia, Alberta, Yukon, and the Northwest Territories; and the US states of Alaska, Idaho, Wyoming, Washington, and Montana. In general their home range is between 10 and 380 square miles. A grizzly bear’s home range is basically inland – away from major bodies of water. In most cases, a grizzly bear’s home range includes an area of forested land or shrub cover, which is used mostly for escape (Jonkel 1984, p 21).

Food Types: Grizzly bears feed on berries (blueberries, bearberries, etc.), roots, bulbs of plants, ground dwelling rodents, and most importantly whitebark pine nuts. Sometimes grizzlies will locate a cache of these nuts that a ground squirrel has stored for the winter. With their excellent sense of smell, grizzlies can locate carrion from miles away and will readily feed on it (Bauer and Bauer 1996, p 62).

Grizzlies may also prey on moose, elk, mountain goats and mountain sheep. During the spring months, grizzlies also feed on the calves of these animals (Jonkel 1984, p 23).

Another major food source for grizzlies are army cutworm moths. During the summer months in the Yellowstone area, these moths congregate on sub-alpine plants located above the timberline at elevations higher than 10,000 feet. During the early morning hours these moths drink nectar and then during the day they cluster on the surrounding rocks. Grizzlies from all around climb to these high elevations to consume 10,000 to 20,000 of these moths a day. At times like this, when food is abundant, numerous grizzlies will congregate and feed together. Once the food source is depleted, the grizzlies will go their separate ways in search of other food (Bauer and Bauer 1996, p 67).

Kodiak bears generally rely on the same types of food as grizzlies, with one addition. Living in coastal areas provides these bears with a rich supply of protein. These coastal areas are so rich in salmon that a 40% higher density of brown bears can be supported there (Bauer and Bauer 1996, p 97).

Face: Brown bears have a concave or ‘dish-shaped’ face (Brown 1993, p 69).

Paws: Grizzly bear paws are black or brownish in color with wrinkled skin on the pad (Brown 1993, p 73).

Shoulder Hump: Brown bears have a distinguishing shoulder hump. This hump is actually a mass of muscle, which enables brown bears to dig and use their paws as a striking force (Brown 1993, p 77).

Claws: Brown bear claws are long and curved, ranging in color from yellow to brown. In rare cases grizzlies have been observed with white claws. These claws are used to dig up roots and bulbs of plants as well as to excavate den sites (Brown 1993, p 74).

Tracks: The toes fall close together and nearly in a straight line in a brown bear track. The toe pads are generally touching each other with the smallest toe on the inside of the track. Impressions from the fore claws are usually found far in front of the toes because the claws are twice as long as the toe pads. The front tracks of brown bears measure 6-8 inches long (excluding heel) and 7-9 inches wide. Hind tracks measure 12-16 inches long and 8 to 10 ½ inches wide (Brown 1993, p 76).

Coloration: Grizzlies range in color from white, blonde, brown, black and shades thereof. The tips of most fur are lighter in color giving them a grizzled effect (Brown 1993, p 65).

Growth and Development: Brown bears can weigh 150-200 pounds at the end of their first year of life. They reach sexual maturity between 4 and 5 years and are considered fully grown by 8 to 10 years of age (Brown 1993, p 139).

Weight: Females reach their maximum weight of 270 to 770 pounds in 8 years. Males reach their maximum weight of 330 to 1150 pounds in 12 years. The heavier a female is the better are her chances of having cubs. The heavier a male is the better chance he has of successfully breeding with a female. Males are 1.2 to 2.2 times as heavy as females.

Kodiak bears can grow to 10 feet long and weigh over 1,000 lbs (Jonkel 1984, p 22).

Making a Living: In general, brown bears will flee as soon as they detect humans. Finding food, finding mates, and avoiding being preyed upon govern a brown bear’s life (Stirling 1993, p 91).

Most brown bears are active during the morning and early evening hours. During the daytime they rest in day beds, often constructed in dense cover to escape the heat. During the late summer and fall months, when they are fattening up for the long months of hibernation, brown bears may be active throughout the day. As food items become scarce, the brown bear’s territory increases. Within their home range, brown bears use a wide variety of habitats. Brown bears travel from alpine food sources to estuaries, to berry patches, to salmon spawning sites – visiting each site when its particular food source is available (Stirling 1993, p 92-93).

Dens: Dens must provide protection and security during the winter months. Brown bears can excavate a den but often use rock caves and hollow trees. Dens are dug in dry, stable soil where winter temperatures will remain above freezing. Usually the den site terrain is sloping. As snow falls it covers and helps to insulate the den. Generally the den is just large enough to accommodate the bear. The entrance to the den leads to a tunnel that slopes downward to the actual sleeping chamber. This sloping tunnel allows stale air to escape. Most dens are used only once. Occasionally a den built in unstable ground will collapse (Stirling 1993, p 94).

Mating: Females generally are first able to reproduce between 4 ½ and 10 years of age. The number of cubs in a litter depends upon the female’s body weight. Mating occurs between early May and mid July with cubs born between the end of January and early March. Usually a female brown bear reproduces once every 3 to 5 years (Brown 1993, p 132, Bauer and Bauer 1996 p 94). Since only 1 in 3 females breed in a given year, males must range widely in order to find a mate (Stirling 1993, p 92-93). A mother brown bear will remain with her young for 1 ½ to 3 ½ years (Brown 1993, p 145).

Data compiled by John Derych

Resources used:

Bauer, Erwin and Peggy Bauer. Bears: Biology, Ecology and Conservation. 1996.

Brown, Gary. The Great Bear Almanac. 1993.

Jonkel, Charles. Bear Essentials. 1984.

Jonkel, Charles. Wild Furbearer Management and Conservation in North America. 1987.

Stirling, Ian (editor). Bears: Majestic Creatures of the Wild. 1993.

BHW,

You mentioned "my client," "my client's," in your post.....are you a guide here in Alaska?

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by ovis:
BHW,

You mentioned "my client," "my client's," in your post.....are you a guide here in Alaska?

Joe

I picked up on that too. I certainly hope your "client" is a business associate type and not your guide. Guides are not allowed to hunt with clients they are guiding.

MM

Facilitator not a guide. Some people call them booking agents, I prefer the term Facilitator as our business is not strictly limited to selling hunts. We do not guide people in AK. However, we can hunt with clients in AK as a facilitator when we book with a registered guide. I booked myself and the client under his name and we both hunted with the registered guide.

I though that Boone and Crocket had a hard and fast line of X number of miles from the coast as the difference between inland Grizzly and coastal Brown Bears.

We were by our estimation more than sixty but less than 100 miles from the coast.

I think B&C is 75 miles.

I got the impression you were less than happy with your Guide.

If you think it warrant it, you can always lodge a complaint here...

Investigations/Complaints

To file a complaint or to bring a matter pertaining to the actions of a licensed, or unlicensed, professional to the attention of our investigative staff, please send an email to: investigations@commerce.state.ak.us

quote:

Originally posted by BHW:
We were by our estimation more than sixty but less than 100 miles from the coast.

I think B&C is 75 miles.

For trophy distinction, an arbitrary line drawn 50 miles inland from salt water is the bear is considered a Grizzly, from salt water to the 50 mile line inland he is a Brown Bear! HOWEVER, they are all grizzlies, and the only real difference is the size, which is brought about by the costal grizzly's(Brown bear) high protene diet of salmon, and seals. The INLAND grizzly, has a range of about 100 sq miles, and has to work much harder to make a liveing. The inland grizz, is usually more aggressive, but smaller than the Costal Grizz (brown bear)! I don't have a map of Alaska with coordences on it but you may simply measure your kill sight from the nearest coast, and fill out you paper work! It it is over 50 miles inland, you will indicate Grizzly, if closer than 50 miles from salt, you list a Brown bear!

BHW

Only going on the info. you have put out I would say you and your client got hosed. Your bear was probably a 3 year old and the sow could have been quite a bit older. The tooth that they pull when you register your bear with AK, F&G will tell the story. Unless you are hunting in very remote interior regions a mature boar should be much bigger than 7 ft.

As for your guide being in a hurry bear hunting is a glassing game and you usually look over several bears or a lot of bears to find a good one. You don't shoot the first one unless he is a brute. Also if you paid for 10 days you should get 10 days even if you are just shooting spruce grouse.

Regards,

Mark

Mark:
As for the ten days our contract read when we harvest a bear the hunt is over, so I had no problem with that. I agree with you in that I felt he was hurrying us to shoot the first thing we saw that he considered legal. Neither him nor his assistants ever asked if we wanted to pass on the bears we saw. The first bear that was killed with the registered guide should have been able to have been judged by the guide as to its size, they got with in 90 yards. My bear was taken with the assistant guide not the registered guide and I knew he had trouble with sizing bears from talking with him and asking questions about the bears we saw before the one I killed. I apparantly have the same problem as I was sure my bear was an eight footer. Given the unpleasant conversation had with the registered guide the evening before even if I knew it was only a seven footer I would have likely taken it just to get the hunt completed. It is unforuntate that he had to have such an attitude as I can't responsibily recommend anyone to him as I would be very uncomfortable knowing that his people skills are maybe somewhat lacking. I am sure part of the problem was his poor planning on booking a sheep hunt the day after our hunt was to conclude. He needed out from the bear hunt to turn things around for the sheep hunt and catch his breath. Poor planning I think put some extra pressure on him to conclude our hunt early.

Before someone else gives that guide another dollar why don't you tell who the outfit and guides were. Just to warn people. Or don't if it might hurt your business.

IMO if the bear has ever eaten a wild salmon in its life then it is a brown bear if not then it is a griz. But then again even living up here in the interior I have not heard any locals ever say "grizzly bear".

quote:

Originally posted by BHW:
Mark:
The first bear that was killed with the registered guide should have been able to have been judged by the guide as to its size, they got with in 90 yards. My bear was taken with the assistant guide NOT THE REGESTERED guide .

This sounds like a little illegal hunting was involved as well!

Mac,

Nope, that part is not illegal in Alaska.

To me it sounds more like breach of contract than poor planning on the guides part. If he contracts to hunt X number of days with you and your hunting partner, than he darn well better do just that.

I would suggest lodging a formal complaint against the guide. It doesn't do anyone any good to let bad guides opperate.

BHW;
You got screwed. You shot a couple of immature BROWN BEARS. An 8 foot Brn Bear is a below average bear. A 9 foot is considered average. Please post the name of the Guide. Skwentna is not Grizzly country.
Mac:
Would you please post the source of the 50 mile rule for Brn Bears versus Grizzly bears? I just read the B&C limits, and they don't mention miles, just compass degrees. Perhaps they are SCI rules?
Please respond, from an old timey Alaskan hunter like you, I'm sure us younger folks can learn a lot! Thanks.

Brown, Grizzly and Polar Bears

The big brown bears are found on Kodiak and Afognak Islands, the Alaska Peninsula, and eastward and southeastward along the coast of Alaska. The smaller interior grizzly is found in the remaining parts of the continent. The boundary between the two was first defined as an imaginary line extending 75 miles inland from the coast of Alaska. Later this boundary was more precisely defined with the current definition as follows:

A line of separation between the larger growing coastal brown bear and the smaller interior grizzly has been developed such that west and south of this line (to and including Unimak Island) bear trophies are recorded as Alaska brown bear. North and east of this line, bear trophies are recorded as grizzly bear. The boundary line description is as follows: Starting at Pearse Canal and following the Canadian-Alaskan boundary northwesterly to Mt. St. Elias on the 141 degree meridian; thence north along the Canadian-Alaskan boundary to Mt. Natazhat; thence west northwest along the divide of the Wrangell Range to Mt. Jarvis at the western end of the Wrangell Range; thence north along the divide of the Mentasta Range to Mentasta Pass; thence in a general westerly direction along the divide of the Alaska Range to Houston Pass; thence westerly following the 62nd parallel of latitude to the Bering Sea.

Polar bear must be taken in either United States or Canadian-held water and/or land mass in order to be eligible. This definition is necessary because of the wide range of polar bears in the far northern hemisphere.

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
Mac:
Would you please post the source of the 50 mile rule for Brn Bears versus Grizzly bears? I just read the B&C limits, and they don't mention miles, just compass degrees. Perhaps they are SCI rules?
Thanks.

I got that trophy discription from the mouth of Jimmie C. Rosenbruch, the owner of the bear hunting company of GLACIER GUIDES Inc, Out of Glasier Bay, Alaska, who holds a Master Guide's license, along with his wife, son, and daughter who are all Licensed Bear Guides as well. Bear are his only game for the most part.

This could have changed, stranger things have happened, and it has been a while since I talked to him, and it has been a couple years since I hunted Alaska, so I don't have a fresh set of the regs from the AGAF!

quote:

Originally posted by BHW:
Mark:
As for the ten days our contract read when we harvest a bear the hunt is over, so I had no problem with that. I agree with you in that I felt he was hurrying us to shoot the first thing we saw that he considered legal. Neither him nor his assistants ever asked if we wanted to pass on the bears we saw. The first bear that was killed with the registered guide should have been able to have been judged by the guide as to its size, they got with in 90 yards. My bear was taken with the assistant guide not the registered guide and I knew he had trouble with sizing bears from talking with him and asking questions about the bears we saw before the one I killed. I apparantly have the same problem as I was sure my bear was an eight footer. Given the unpleasant conversation had with the registered guide the evening before even if I knew it was only a seven footer I would have likely taken it just to get the hunt completed. It is unforuntate that he had to have such an attitude as I can't responsibily recommend anyone to him as I would be very uncomfortable knowing that his people skills are maybe somewhat lacking. I am sure part of the problem was his poor planning on booking a sheep hunt the day after our hunt was to conclude. He needed out from the bear hunt to turn things around for the sheep hunt and catch his breath. Poor planning I think put some extra pressure on him to conclude our hunt early.

I don't know what you are "booking","hepling out" someone or what. But I would always hunt with someone, before booking other people on a hunt.

I killed a 9'6" Grizzly this year with a 25 7/16" skull (offical) this year. All 6 hunters killed B&C gizz in the area I was in. With proper research what happen to you won't happen.

I would like to know what was paid for your hunt?

"Complicated". That's what I see here.

I think I'll just plan for POLAR BEAR.
Blood trails oughtta be easier to find...

Besides, I think I 'read' that the Polar Bear IS the BIG BEAR.

Hold on a minute.
BHW:
You claim to be a facilitator/outfitter, you sold a hunt in Alaska to someone, you accompany them on the hunt, and you don't even know if the area is Brown or Grizzly?
Remind me never to book a hunt with you.

quote:

Collins

Thank's for the insite on the diffrents between the two .. lol .dam i never really knew the diffrents and atleast i know that about have my kills now were not.. Brown bears but wrather
Grizzlies.. That does explain alot ..

and that means the first " Brown bear" i ever saw was not a brown bear but a Grizzly bear instead . and it was feeding on Seals..

Cool thanks guy..

Martin

Busmaster,

I may be wrong, but I believe the largest skull size belongs to a brown bear, but for overall size the polar bear can be larger.

I work on the Alaska North Slope, and have lived in Kodiak or Sitka since 1992. The polar bears tend to worry me a bit more.

Actually "Grizzly" is just a common American name. They are all considered Brown Bear world wide. I think it was in the Lewis and Clark journal that first termed the word "Grizzly".

Also recent DNA results have some surprising findings. The taxonomy report posted by Collins is some what outdated thinking. Science has grouped all the Brown Bear subspiecies back together again into 'ursus arctos'. Science is now 'lumping' not 'spliting' subspecies.

Actually the ABC Island Browns show a DNA match to Polar Bear. The Kodiak and mainland Browns DNA match and are different than the ABC Island Bears. There are thought to have been 2 seperate migratuions of Bears from Europe. The one that turned north and turned white had relation that got isolated on the ABC's. Then later in history another migration populated the mainland including Kodiak.

I'm from Alabama. I've never seen a bear in the wild and I'm certain I have an unrational fear of the big guys. That's one of the first sites that came up with a Google search of "Brown Bear Taxonomy" I find them absolutly fascinating. But in the case of shooting a charging bear and justifying it... There's nothing in prison that scares me as much as 1000 lbs of angry teeth and claws.

BTW, What are the ABC's?

Admiralty, Baranof, Chichagof Island.

Where do Teddy Bears come from.....?



Sorry could not resist.

quote:

Originally posted by BW:
Busmaster,

I may be wrong, but I believe the largest skull size belongs to a brown bear, but for overall size the polar bear can be larger.

I work on the Alaska North Slope, and have lived in Kodiak or Sitka since 1992. The polar bears tend to worry me a bit more.

The sound of a poler bears foot steps on the snow ..are like the sound of butterfly wings.
are you spooked yet...
the sound of a brown bear standing on its hind legs 4 feet behind you is the same...
one min/ there 40 yards away then next there 4 feet from you and while your trying to jack a round into your rifle/shotgun eyc your asking your self . were the hell was the noise this thing was suppost to make.. then it dawns on you ! maybe this is how thay servive in the wild ... Butterfly wing's Boooo