which would be a better choice for a brown bear rifle . talking these two only to a max of 100 yds the 416 rem. or the 458 win. mag.

The one you can shoot better.

Whichever you are most comfortable shooting, and whichever you are most accurate with.

I hunted AK BB one time only. I had planned on taking my 416 Rem Mag (350 TSX), but for reasons we wont get into, ended up using my 338 WM (225gr Nosler Part.).
Shot my Bear @ under 40 yds and dropped it DRT with a shoulder shot.

I'd easily use a 338 WM (or like) again, but if I ever return, I would likely pack my 416 Taylor with 340gr Woodleigh PP.

.458 all the way..
Just ask Phil..

I was planning on taking my .375/338 on my brown bear hunt in May, but I may switch to my .458 Win Mag as I'd like to try the 300 gr Cutting Edge ESP Raptor bullets.

Phil

quote:

Originally posted by badboymelvin:
.458 all the way..
Just ask Phil..

My thought exactly, follow the lead of the master!

I have never been able to.prove to myself that either one dumps a brown bear one mili second faster than the other. And I've put considerable effort into finding out ( The Truth)
I have had great success with the 300 gr Barnes X and TSX on brown bear from both rounds.
I also can't.prove to.myself that either caliber with either 300 gr bullets going faster than Charles Askins ever intended them to or a 400 gr bullet at 2400 fps ish or 500 gr 458@2,000-2100+ fps. Works faster.
They all dump bears at the speed of gravity with central chest shots at very close range .
If anyone has any experience, not theory,!! To prove definitively on way or the other I'm open to instruction. Honestly I would like to know.

If I Had to pick 1 load for the 416 it would be the 350 gr TTSX at around 2600 ans for the 458 the 350 gr TSX at the same speed or close. 2550 has always worked spectacularly.

But. The rifles , that would be my deciding factor. Like has been said. The one you like and shoot the best is the one you should use.

Imo bears should be shot from as short a distance as possible. A brown bear taken at 20' away in thick brush is truly dangerous game hunting.
The single most important thing is to be able to shoot your rifle almost perfectly and really fast. To be absolutely best friends with your rifle.
I've never been much for having a bear rifle that needed a cns hit to drop a big bear. But I do think and practice being able to make a cns hit rapidly on a moving bear with either the 416 or 458. One of the reasons I like the lighter bullet weights. They are just easier to shoot well. Good enough to call your shots easily and shoot deer, coyotes, fox ect with your bear rifle.

If the biggest rifle anyone can shoot this well with is a 270 Winchester then that is what they should hunt brown bear with.
But, Really, they just need to wear out a 416 or 458 getting good enough with to head or high neck shoot their deer ect. .
Overkill is no a word with meaning in my dictionary !!

Well, maybe a 600 OK on Sitka Blacktails. Maybe, !

If I ever go on a brown bear hunt it well be with my 416 Taylor and some type of 350 gr bullet at 2450.

I have several boxes of Barnes X bullets and Speer mag tips they shoot to the same point of aim into one ragged hole.

I wouldn't feel bad carrying one or the other.

They do kill deer,hogs and black bear nicely.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
I have never been able to.prove to myself that either one dumps a brown bear one mili second faster than the other. And I've put considerable effort into finding out ( The Truth)
I have had great success with the 300 gr Barnes X and TSX on brown bear from both rounds.
I also can't.prove to.myself that either caliber with either 300 gr bullets going faster than Charles Askins ever intended them to or a 400 gr bullet at 2400 fps ish or 500 gr 458@2,000-2100+ fps. Works faster.
They all dump bears at the speed of gravity with central chest shots at very close range .
If anyone has any experience, not theory,!! To prove definitively on way or the other I'm open to instruction. Honestly I would like to know.

If I Had to pick 1 load for the 416 it would be the 350 gr TTSX at around 2600 ans for the 458 the 350 gr TSX at the same speed or close. 2550 has always worked spectacularly.

But. The rifles , that would be my deciding factor. Like has been said. The one you like and shoot the best is the one you should use.

Imo bears should be shot from as short a distance as possible. A brown bear taken at 20' away in thick brush is truly dangerous game hunting.
The single most important thing is to be able to shoot your rifle almost perfectly and really fast. To be absolutely best friends with your rifle.
I've never been much for having a bear rifle that needed a cns hit to drop a big bear. But I do think and practice being able to make a cns hit rapidly on a moving bear with either the 416 or 458. One of the reasons I like the lighter bullet weights. They are just easier to shoot well. Good enough to call your shots easily and shoot deer, coyotes, fox ect with your bear rifle.

Phil Shoemaker states unequivocally that his experience has been that big bears get up noticeably slower (if at all) when hit with a .458WM than when hit with a .416.

I did not know that.
As I say, I have never noticed a difference. They both work so well. I do know that the 458 350 gr X+TSX expand to around .8" in the media I've tested them in and that I've never recovered one from a bear.
Do you have a link to the thread where he discussed it. ?

I have killed quite a few big bears up close and personal and my impression is that they drop a bit quicker, and stay down a little longer, with the 458 than with anything smaller. I even used a 505 Gibbs on one charging boar at 20 feet and that was the only bear I've shot that dropped maybe faster than with my 458. So I do think bore size and bullet weight matter FOR A GUIDES STOPPING RIFLE !
But I have also killed a number of equally large bears with the 30-06, 9.3x62 and .375 and had clients kill them with calibers as small as the .270 and 7mm and bullet placement, followed by bullet performance, mean the most. BRING A RIFLE THAT YOU HONESTLY SHOOT WELL AND ARE FAMILIAR WITH!
In my opinion the ideal caliber for hunting the largest brown bears on Kodiak or the peninsula would be either the .338 or the .375.

Just like with big-caliber doubles, let's not confuse the role of the hunter with that of the PH/Guide.

I have been thinking about two rifles. the winchester m70 in 416 rem or 458 win. and the cz550 in 458 lott or 416 rigby. when talking with a store owner his opinion was that those rifles were to heavy and to long and he is tring to talk me into a ruger m77 guide gun in 416 ruger.what are your thoughts.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I have killed quite a few big bears up close and personal and my impression is that they drop a bit quicker, and stay down a little longer, with the 458 than with anything smaller. I even used a 505 Gibbs on one charging boar at 20 feet and that was the only bear I've shot that dropped maybe faster than with my 458. So I do think bore size and bullet weight matter FOR A GUIDES STOPPING RIFLE !
But I have also killed a number of equally large bears with the 30-06, 9.3x62 and .375 and had clients kill them with calibers as small as the .270 and 7mm and bullet placement, followed by bullet performance, mean the most. BRING A RIFLE THAT YOU HONESTLY SHOOT WELL AND ARE FAMILIAR WITH!
In my opinion the ideal caliber for hunting the largest brown bears on Kodiak or the peninsula would be either the .338 or the .375.

The rifle that is big enough and that the hunter can shoot the best !

quote:

Originally posted by Tanoose:
I have been thinking about two rifles. the winchester m70 in 416 rem or 458 win. and the cz550 in 458 lott or 416 rigby. when talking with a store owner his opinion was that those rifles were to heavy and to long and he is tring to talk me into a ruger m77 guide gun in 416 ruger.what are your thoughts.

When I had my last 458 Win Mag built. Long before the 416 Ruger was even an idea. I could have just as easily had it made in 416 Taylor. I had it built into a 458 simply because it was a common cart, and because the rifle's main job was as a last.line of defense for me. And because the brush was so thick shots would always be very close. At the time I had a 416 Taylor and wanted to compare it and the 458 as to killing/stopping ability. The rifle has served me very well. And still will.
However, even at early 90s prices I have close to 1400$ into it and the sights that were screwed on are long gone and it never had a barrel band sling swivel eye.
What I tried to have built isn't quite as good as a Ruger Guide Gun. My rifle balances like the Guide Gun. Which is great for a close range fighting rifle. My last 416 , A Remington Mag on a CZ 550 action. I
had built had a bit more muzzle weight and balanced better for a "hunting rifle " Tho I've done some good hunting shots with my 458 , It was easier to make head shots on deer with the 416 .

Speaking strictly as a moose hunter that mostly hunts alone, in areas where there are bears, thick cover, and raining more often than not; I like a 375 Ruger with a 20" barrel and 270gr TSX bullets.
I have also hunted the same areas with 338 Win Mag with 225 TSX and would not feel disadvantaged if/when doing so again.

I also have a 416 Ruger with 20" barrel and factory Hogue stock, that I have become very fond of.
Not a "pretty" rifle, but damn functional and useful for purpose.
A McMillan stock might help the "pretty" part if one cares.

I think the 416 Ruger with a premium 350gr bullet at 2300-2500 fps would work fine nose rubbing close and excess of 100yds. The larger bore in can be comforting at times.

The normally wet conditions have convinced me that stainless and synthetics are my choice of steel and stock.
I have a Whitworth 458 Win Mag & a M70 in 416 Rem. I like both cartridges, but like the 416 Ruger more.

I have considered putting together stainless 416 Rem and 458 Win, hell even purchased donors for the projects; and considered purchasing the Montana Rifle Company stainless and synthetic 416 Rem and/or 458 Win.

But, after purchasing a couple of the 416 Ruger Alaskans, my lust for a larger bore and/or larger case has subsided.

If I felt the overwhelming compulsion for a M70 styled rifle, I would try the Montana Rifle Company stainless model. The cartridge would be the 416 Ruger, which they do chamber for.

Though, I think the older 416 Ruger Alaskan rifle is close to ideal for my dedicated bear rifle and crosses over to an excellent moose thumper too.
The stock will probably be replaced with a fiberglass one. Add a quality lower powered scope in the 1-4 / 1-6 range with a bold reticle and done.
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quote:

Originally posted by Tanoose:
I have been thinking about two rifles. the winchester m70 in 416 rem or 458 win. and the cz550 in 458 lott or 416 rigby. when talking with a store owner his opinion was that those rifles were to heavy and to long and he is tring to talk me into a ruger m77 guide gun in 416 ruger.what are your thoughts.

--------------------------------------------------------------

quote:

Originally posted by Tanoose:
which would be a better choice for a brown bear rifle . talking these two only to a max of 100 yds the 416 rem. or the 458 win. mag.

IMO. You need to handle and if possible shoot the rifles you are interested in. Find which one is easiest hold on target. A gut shot with a 458 Lott is a lot less useful than a good chest shot with a 375. In a American or Safari Magnum CZ rifle the 375 has more barrel weight and is just easier to shoot well. Same with the 375 Ruger compared to a 416 Ruger. .
If you are an aficionado and are willing to put a thousand rounds of good practice thru a big bore so you can easily hit well with it from field positions then go for a big bore " 416-458 ect "
Otherwise, the 375 is a real peach. You still need to shoot it LOTS before you go hunting with it but. It will serve you the best.

thanks to everyone for your input with all my reading on this forum and others it seems there is maybe another contender to think about the 375 caliber.whats your thoughts about what the barrel lenth should be. the m70 safari has a 24" the m70 alaskan has a 25" i think the ruger has a 20" wow how does one choose.also what can i expect as far as recoil as i believe this might be the most important factor in my decision . i have alot of experience with three calibers all near and at max loads. they are the 30/06 with 220 grain bullets the 338 winchester magnum with 250 grain and the 45/70 using 350 and 400 grain.

If you still have the 338 and shoot it well. Take it!

I agree with C.T.F., the 338 Win Mag has proven it works Very well! - as have many smaller cartridges - And the original marketing hype labeled the 338 as The Alaskan.
But if you are looking to buy a new rifle, any excuse works for me.

To me the M70 Safari is a bit bulky for a 375, about right for a 416 Rem. I have one in the 416 Rem.
Don't use it, but have it.

I have an H&H or so in the M70 Classic SS, tupperware stocks. Don't use, but have. Projects awaiting progress.
The tupperware is functional like the Hogue, but not a big fan of either.
Again, in my opinion the barrel contour is more suited for a 416.

The couple of FN M70 375H&H SS Alaskans with Laminated stocks that I handled, I liked. I have only seen two and they did not stay on the shelf long.
I thought that barrel profile was more in line with a 375.
Though, I would have reduced the barrel length by a couple of inches.

To me the pre-Guide Gun 20" Ruger Alaskan in 375 Ruger is handy like a 20" lever rifle.
Have one, with a McMillan stock and a 1.1-4 Kahles scope and Do Use It Regularly. Almost exclusively hunting and regularly when on a walk-about/camping/hiking.
A favorite, easy to shoot and easy to handle in confined spaces.

As previously stated not a big fan of the Hogue stock, but functional. The more I handle the Hogue on a my 416 Ruger, the less I dislike it. Can not hurt the looks of it and not slick in the rain are pluses.

As to recoil, if you have no issues with a 338 and 250gr at max loads; I can not see recoil in like style rifles with a 300 or 270gr bullet being an issue in a 375.

To me the 375's are versatile and user friendly, the 375 Ruger being my favorite. But, the 338 Win mag is Very versatile also.




---------------------------------------------------------------

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
If you still have the 338 and shoot it well. Take it!

thanks again everyone, i sold my 338 so this is why i am looking for a new rifle and with the hopes of retiring to big bear country this is why i was thinking 416 or 458 as i would be my guide. i have one last question its about the 416 rigby . can it be handloaded with a 400 grain bullet to 2500 fps without going to high with pressure so there would be no problems with extraction. again thanks

If you are planning on moving to a place where there is a serious possibility of running into big bears, your first and most important issue relating to safety will be to learn about bears and you will want a firearm with you most of the time. In the rugged wilderness areas where bears live, portability is as much an issue as power and I feel perfectly well armed with my 30-06 carbine loaded with 200 or 220 gr Nosler partitions.

Tanoose,

I agree wholeheartedly with those recommending the 338 WM as when paired with a premium 250 gr bullet it is a formidable tool for any big game. Make sure your 338 is ready for the foul weather and go kill a big one.

Mark

i guess i should have kept my ruger 338. i just felt it was to much for ny deer and black bear so i kept the 06, the funny thing is i shot the 338 better then my rem .700 30/06 i am taking a more serious look at the ruger guide gun,now to decide which caliber i think i want to go up from the 338 so the 375 seems to make more sense but i am deciding between it and the 416.i do handload so i could use these two for medium game if i want ,i just want more insurance against the big bears. thanks again.

The 375 is a very good choice. But, your the one that needs to make it. . Accuracy can't be exchanged for raw power if you can't put the bullet in just the right spot.
A 416 Rigby with a 400 gr bullet at 2500 fps is a handful. Plus I don't know of a stainless Rigby so there would be more challenges. I was in town recently and I didn't see any 416 Rigby brass or ammo anywhere. But there was 375 Ruger brass and ammo on the shelves. Same with 338 Win Mag.
What Phil said about learning about bears is the single biggest challenge most people face. Having the time to spend in places where.lots of bears live and being able to observe them up close. .
Its natural to be intimidated by close proximity to brown bear . If that makes you desire or need a bigger rifle to calm yourself then that's fine. BUT, you need to be able to handle and shoot that rifle that rifle very well. And that only comes from correct practice and lots of it.

i hear what your saying,i am lucky enough that i can do alot of shooting with my hunting rifles,and i would never take afield a rifle that i couldnt hit my target.and if i decide on the 416 and its to much for me i would sell it all my shooting is done using my hunting ammo i never load down for the range.the 375 wont be a problem with me being used to heavy 45/70 loads . i would bet the 4 5/70 might be a good bear load with 400 grain bullets at 2000fps but i like to use it just for deer and black bear.

If you hand load the 416 Ruger down to 2200 fps with a 400 gr bullet it is very easy to shoot well. Same with a 300 gr at 2550 . No real reason to go max with it.
The VAST majority of brown bear that you will encounter if you spend a lot of time in an area with dense bear population will be 8'square and smaller. Even seeing great big, 9'square and larger is not an everyday thing .
I gave a 416 Taylor to a friend who guides brown bear in Southeast and the load he was using is a 350 gr bullet at 2350 fps and he said it tips big bears upside down just great! And it is Very easy to shoot.
I worked up a load in my 458 Lott pushing a 400 gr bullet at around 2600 fps. It was something to shoot but really un necessary. A 400 gr 416 bullet at around 2400 is plenty
The lighter bullets are my favorite .

cold trigger finger thanks for all your input on my post its helped me alot.i think the ruger guide gun is the way to go now just to decide which caliber.how do you feel about scopes ,i have a leupold 1.5x5x20 with german #4 reticle that i think would be a perfect match.

Yup! That's possibly the the single most common good scope on 375s and 416s in Alaska.
I'm switching to the Vortex Viper PST 1-4×24 . I got to examine them very well in town the other day. But if you already have the 1.5-5 Leupold then you are in good shape imo.

I also shoot the Ruger M77 Mk2 in 338 better than I do the 306 and 06 versions. From field positions. That's why I made my 6.5 Creedmoor rifle weigh over 10 lbs. Its just easier to hit well with for me than an 8 lb rifle.

Ruger didn't make too many of them, but I thought the original 416 Ruger Alaskan with the black oxide treatment (or whatever it was) was a perfect Alaskan gun. I keep looking for one on GunBroker, but they haven't shown up in a few years.

I like the corrosion protection of the black metal treatment but would prefer it in a lighter color. . The GG is a good color to not spook game and its easy to adjust the lop. None of the 375 Alaskans that I had, had a barrel band sling stud. I like the sling being on the barrel for a big name rifle. And I do agree with Phil about the Horrible abomination. For a big game stock. My last 375 Ruger I put a canoe paddle stock on. I like laminated stocks quite a bit so I'm happy with the guide Gun stock.

I have used my browning Abolt SS for three hunts in Alaska, I have used failsafe, on Moose, Sierra 300 spbt on caribou at 400 yards and Brown Bear with 300 Swift A frames. To me the 375 is the best compromise for power penetration and range, the 416 is a fine second choice since it to me is a 375 on steroids the only disadvantage is the increased recoil but you generally won't remember that after the hunt. If I knew I was to have an up close and personal encounter any of the big guns in 375, 416 and 458 will do their job if you do yours

Decision made its going to be the ruger guide gun in 416 ruger. while i wont need it for a few years i want to be proficient with all my hunting rifles , so i decided to order one in june. i will use it on all my deer bear and moose hunts hear in the north east. so i would be ready in the future. a big thanks to everyone who posted hear

Add .366" to that. It is easily a match for a .338 WM and on the heels of the .375 H&H.

That's not theory but reality. I've owned them all, including the .340 WBY, several .375 H&H's, a trio of .338 WM's a couple of .35 Whelens and 2 .350 Rem Mags. My favorite among them all is the 9.3 X 62.

None of those have any advantage over the 9.3 X 62 when handloaded for large game to 500 yds. My current load for the 250 AB at 2760 fps at 64K psi is easily equal to a .338 WM but in a shorter, lighter package. There are at least 50 component bullets now available in Canada and the USA... most of those are of the premium variety.

My rifle weighs 7.5 lbs ready for action with scope, sling and a clip full of 250's or 286's. 300's and 320's are also available for handloaders.

The only one I'd choose above that is a .458 WM, or equivalent, and I've owned a bunch of those as well. Have never every lost anything punched by a .458" projectile.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by Tanoose:
thanks again everyone, i sold my 338 so this is why i am looking for a new rifle and with the hopes of retiring to big bear country this is why i was thinking 416 or 458 as i would be my guide. i have one last question its about the 416 rigby . can it be handloaded with a 400 grain bullet to 2500 fps without going to high with pressure so there would be no problems with extraction. again thanks

Yes with no trouble at all. The question is why. A 400 grain pill from the 416 Rigby is more than enough to tip an Elephant up so it would most certainly handel a bear.

rule 303 i wasnt thinking for bears the 400 at 2500 sounded to me like a great african stopper.

Whichever rifle you shoot best. Brian Peterson, Master Guide and Outfitter uses 416 Rem Mag, as his go to rifle. One of his guides Eric Fischer uses 338 Win Mag with open sites as his backup rifle. On my Brown Bear Hunt I used a 340 Weatherby Mag, shooting 210 Grain Barnes 3X. Dropped the bear like a stone.
Later that year, a friend of mine was charged by a sow, killed her at 8 feet with 300 Win Short Mag right in the brain. Ultimately, as we all know it comes down to bullet placement.

some thoughts on this issue from the bear I didn't kill. I have a room full of guns. For my kodiak hunt, the week before or after Tim, I had a 458 Lott custom built. Never got comfortable with the gun. Two weeks out I switched to a compact ruger 375 Alaskan. I never shot a bear. However, after humping that ruger around kodiak for a few days I was happy not to have the extra pounds that came with the 458 Lott. Also, my potential shots were much longer than I had anticipated and I felt more confident in the accuracy at range of the 375.