Hi
many people are using pump action shotguns for bear defens, but how relaible these pump actions are? i had some pump action shotguns and none of them were really trouble free!!! may be rem 870 is an exception, because i never owned one and don't know if they are much better choice than the other brands,
regards
yes

I trust a pump alot more than what I trust an auto.

I never had a problem with my rem 7600 in 35whelen. I screwed up a couple of times but the rifle didnt.

I agree and trust a pump much more than any semi-auto. The only type of shotgun I trust more than a pump is an over-under or side-by-side.

I've never had a problem with factory ammo in a pump action that I can recall. Occasionally I get a reload that will hang up, but that's more of me trying to use a hull too many times than a problem with the gun.

quote:

Are pump actions relaiable

The Remington 870, the Winchester M-12 and M-1300, the BPS and the Ithaca M-37 are very reliable.

I can attest that the 870, BPS and M-37 have never failed me. There are lots of pump rifle and shotgun users here in PA. Never heard one complain that the pump action was unreliable.

I have a Reminington 870 Express Super Magnum. I've found it to be perfectly reliable and, with it's 3-1/2" chamber, it packs quite a wallop.

Don't know how effective it would be on bear, but in 00 buckshot it has 18 shot. A normal 12 Ga. has 9.

Although I am a bolt action hunter with an ocassional lever tossed in I know the Rem. pump rifles mod 760 and 7600 are super accurate right out of the box and I doubt if they can be jammed.They are pretty outstanding rifles..At one time the CIA used them for assination rifles, but that was back in the good old days.

My one and only objection to them is they rattle like a model A ford truck...

Never had a single problem with an 870 or an 1100 Remington either. Of course I kept them clean and I shot a lot of shells over the years. I was never much of a shotgunner but I have to say that if I was going to buy a shotgun, it would be an 870 or what ever the new 1100 is called these days. thou a lot of my friends like that Bernelli.

As instuctor and armorer I have seen hundreds of police officers shoot 10000s of thousands of shells through pump action shot guns. For the most parts they are as relaiable as anything else.

But like any thing else they are subject to failure parts breakage ect.

Most failures are operator error short stroking the action ect. But that can also be cause by a weak mag spring causing the shells to surge forward in the mag tube under recoil and if the operator is real fast on the pump they work the action before the shell is in the action. People putting ammo in backwards ect.

I've seen ejectors break during firing and jam the action so tight a hammer and punch had to be used to take it apart. I have seen mag caps come off sending the barrel mag spring ect down range.

Over all a well maintain pump works but like any thing else they can and do fail hopefully on the range and not in the feild when one needs it the most.

Geroge Semel the 870 is a great shotgun that has a lot going for it the older ones and the police / milltary models are the best they are and were made tougher.

The newer civilan ones have been ceapened up. Plastic trigger guards cast extractors ect. They would be the ones with the new style mag caps and mag tube retainers.

You couldn't get me to buy a 1100/1187 or any rem semi auto shotgun. I would take it as a gift just so I could sell it or tade it.

When I talk about a lot of shells I talk about 10000's of thousands. How many is a lot to you.

I suppose that over the years I have put upwards of 50,000 rounds through pumps. I currently own six of them. I have never had one break, although I did break a Model 12 firing pin one time many years ago. I have short stroked them maybe two or three times and had a round in the chamber and one on the follower which means you take the trigger assembly out of an 870 before it shoots again. I have beat the feed cycle on both 870s and M12s (eject the spent round and before the round in the magazine is back against the stop then close the bolt on an empty chamber) but I doubt you can do that with slugs in the magazine. I have never jammed or beat the feed cycle on a 760 or 7600.

Considering that on my O/U guns I block the safety so the bottom barrel always goes first because they have a tendency to get caught in the middle, I would much prefer a pump with slugs to anything else If I got cross ways with a mad bear. Even if you skid one off his noggin, 500 grains of lead at 1500 FPS is going to disrupt his thought processes at least for a bit. I think if it came down to picking one gun to face anything short of an elephant that was intent on killing me, it'd be my 760 in 30-06 with Barnes 180s in it. It's fast. It's accurate. It's reliable. It's got all the penetration you could ask for.

Reliability problems with pump actions tend to occur because of excessive chamber pressures and minimum chamber dimensions -- extraction difficulties. These are predominantly rifle cartridge problems. Shotguns operate at low pressures and can get away with significant slop and tolerance that would be unacceptable in a rifle. To make a long story less long, pump shotguns with a track record are reliable. Period!

Miles58 the 870 feed system was improved with the flex tab. And one does not have to take one apart to clear a jam cause by a shell laying on the carrier. If you get them a lot means a shell stop is worn and needs to be replaced. Or one doesn't place them far enough into the mag tubel.

I have old 870s (real checkering). The few times I jammed them with a fresh round on the carrier were always caused by short stroking the gun.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yes:
Hi
many people are using pump action shotguns for bear defens, but how relaible these pump actions are?

I have owned several Remington 760 & 7600
Pump rifles & have hunted extensivly with them very reliable & trouble free. I had a 760 in
35 Rem rechambered to 35 Whelen & chamber was long. It was sticky with moderate loads. My 2
30-06 7600 & 760 have been great. And my 7600
in 35 Whelen works great with factory & handloads. Very accurate also.

I grew up on a 760 and an 870. The only problems I've ever seen with these guns were caused by operator error.

an 870 is about the best darn pump gun out there. They are definitely more reliable than a semi.

BUT, I do love my model 37 Ithacas..... Fantastic.

Having gunsmithed a number of pump guns, I have found the Remington rifles the most reliable. Rem 870 shell latches are subject to failure due to wear but otherwise good. If a person keeps the screw that holds the safety button on a Mossberg tight they are very reliable. Mossberg is one of the few suppliers of shotguns to the military. The 590's have thicker barrels as normal sporter barrels are prone to crushing in a combat situation. Having owned a Ithaca 37 and having to clear jams through the bottom ejection port, I'll never have another. If the gun doesn't have two ports and you have a jam you will create new words to describe the frustration of clearing one in the field. I have been familiar with the reputations of Winchester and Remington shotguns for a very long time but, in spite of the plastic and birch stocks I would just as soon shoot a Mossberg as any other brand on the market. I have heard many compain about Mossbergs but generally its the look not the performance and many have never used them and complain anyway. If you want a wait to fail item, try the screw that holds the slide arm bridge on a model 1200 Winchester.

I had a mossberg mariner that would ocasionally release the round from the magazine after the lifter had attempted to move the round in position to be fead into the chamber. Result, empty chamber and rounda on the ground

Needless to say that gun didn't stick around long. And yes, I told the guy who bought it about the issue.

My Benneli Nova turned into a single shot, but that was poor maintenance on my part. It got drenched duck hunting and I didn't tear it down to dry and oil the works. One of the plungers rusted in place and it wouldn't feed.

Properly built and maintained pumps are very reliable actions. Improperly built and abused, they'll fail like any other action.

A "skeletoniesd" floorplate is key. I had a M870 kick a shell back becuase I didn't fully seat in the mag tube. Took two pocket knives and about 30 minutes to clear after the action. Pump actions are very reliable. George Hoffman used a M870 for following-up leopard. When I asked why not a double or auto, George said the double did not offer enough shoots and the auto was not reliable as the pump.

I trust a pump action, I don't trust a shotgun for dangerous game unless your a terrible shot, then maybe buckshot is Ok if you can wait until the animal is 5 feet from you..I don't like those odds.

I've had the same 870 since I was 14. There is no stopping the gun. Of all the days in the duck blind, 70 degrees to 35 below zero it just keeps going. I put thousands of rounds through it between trap shooting and quail hunting. There are grizzlies where I'm from, and while I've never had any really close calls with one, I'm sure some 3" slugs would stop one in a big hurry.

Oh, but like 429 said, stay away from bottom ejecting guns. I've jammed a 10 ga browning bps enough times to know it wouldn't be my first choice if my life depended on it.

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
Hi
many people are using pump action shotguns for bear defens, but how relaible these pump actions are? i had some pump action shotguns and none of them were really trouble free!!! may be rem 870 is an exception, because i never owned one and don't know if they are much better choice than the other brands,
regards
yes

Yes, If you maintain them well, a Model 12 or an 870 will perform reliably. I've owned both, and have never had a problem with either one. But, my only pump shotgun today is a Model 12.

Don

I have an old worn win. m-12 that I have shot literally thousands of rounds through, it has no blue at all and the stock is sorta drift woody in looks. That old gun has never failed to feed or fire, not one time in the last 50 or so years, I don't even remember when I got it but I was just a button at the time and it was well used then..It should be worn out..

I got invited to hunt with some reps from a famous gun company and the looks when I drug out that old 12 was one of disgust and astonishmentk, At the end of the day everyone was inspecting it, borrowing it and laughing at supper about the old wonderbluss...It gave them all a shooting lesson that day.

Why would they not be.

Here are a couple of my bear guns.

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php?t=38733

"reliable"-long as the bolt is free to chamber, absolutely-otherwise it is "just" a matter of opening the bolt and shaking out the debris-twig stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
Hi
many people are using pump action shotguns for bear defens, but how relaible these pump actions are? i had some pump action shotguns and none of them were really trouble free!!! may be rem 870 is an exception, because i never owned one and don't know if they are much better choice than the other brands,
regards
yes

Yes

With earler model shotguns there is no trigger block so to fire a rapid string all one has to do is hold the trigger down and rack the slide of the shotgun it will fire faster than a semiauto, I've done it many times with my 1950's Ithaca M 37 16g & a 1924 Win Mod 12 12g.