I'm posting this on the Alaska Hunting forum because I'm an Alaskan, and I had this rifle made for Alaska use. I didn't post it on the Big Bore forum because I get the impression that if it ain't a 404 Jeffery, or 416 Rigby, or something Nitro, or if it ain't about Africa, and ain't a custom & expensive walnut job, there's little interest.

This is a rifle I thought about a long time, and I've had and shot other big bore carbines, including the Marlin Guide 45-70.

So, the short story is it's a Ruger stainless 77 MKII in 458WM with a short throat (45-70 throat) it will not chamber factory 458WM ammo - I tried some yesterday. That's a relief, because I never intend to shoot factory ammo in it, and I don't want anyone sticking factory stuff in there and trying it. I enjoy handloading, so this is not a problem to me, and I consider it a plus.

I think 458WM factory ammo 500gr & 510gr bullets are way over the top for Alaska, and defeat the purpose of having a light bush rifle. If your rifle whacks you in the eyebrow with the scope, or quickly getting back on target with a second shot is a problem, because the recoil is too much, then I figure the cost of that much muzzel energy and bullet weight ain't worth it.

The barrel is Pac Nor stainless #5, 20" long with 20" twist, about standard for a 45-70. What I tried to have made is a bolt action equivilent to 45-70 ballistics, but without any feeding issues. I think of it as a 45-90 with a belt instead of a rim. This barrel started as a custom 450 Marlin on a Ruger short action, but it didn't feed properly, so I had it reamed out and put on a longer action. Now it works. Looks like I got what I was looking for, plus +++.

There have been few issues with this rifle. It feeds perfect. The recoil pad is too mushy, and I want to change it out for a firmer pad, such as the decelerator. But, I may change stocks altogether for another Hogue, but the one with the full aluminum insert. I had to change the rings out because the Warne rings put the squeeze on the Leupold 1x4 scope somehow, and made the magnification ring very hard to turn. The Leupold rings solved that problem, and allowed the scope to be further forward, and lower too.

As it turned out, it was not easy to get loads equal to the hot 45-70 loads, so I went with 350gr bullets, at about 2150 fps. I could go up to over 2500 fps, per the Speer manual, but that's more recoil than I want to suffer in this light rifle. I might be able to work up to it, but not for now.

I'll post some pictures. I appreciate your comments and feedback.

I had PacNor mark the barrel "short throat" because I wanted it to be clearly a wildcat, even though it uses standard 458 brass and dies.






This picture below is to show the difference in the Warne rings. Note the space behind the rear ring - between the scope ring & the magnification ring. Any further back, and I couldn't turn the magnification ring. The Leupold scope rings caused no such problem.


Here's a picture showing the bolt clearance, with the Leupold low rings.



Here's a picture of range results today. 100 yds. 70grs H4895. I think it's a good group. It represents the accuracy I'm getting with this rifle, but what's really significant is that this group is one shot each of Hornady 350gr, Swift 350gr, and Speer 350gr.


KB

Great concept, excellent execution. Seems pretty ideal for a standard length action, tight brush, big critter.

Congrats!

I like it. Its starting to make my mind think.

Kabluewy

There was an article in either Rifle, or Handloader Magazine several years ago about a short throated 458 Win Mag.
Also I am sure you are aware of the 458x2".

I think your concept is an excellent one.
I have owned a couple of 458,s, as well as a couple of 45/70's and I have used my 450 No2 double rifle with 350gr bullets for several deer and pigs.

The 350gr bullets you have picked, as well as the North Fork 350grainers, at the velocity you are loading them is an excellent choice for ANY NA BIG big game.

I think the 20" barrel is a good choice as well.

What you've done is a fabulous idea - in fact, I would have much prefered that Ruger just brought out their "Alaskan" in .458WinMag and not bothered with the .416Ruger.

The only thing I'd have done differently would have been to give the rifle a standard chamber on the odd chance of needing or wanting to use factory ammo.

All the rest, the scope, stock, barrel length and contour, stainless Ruger, standard length, the lighter premium slugs at a good velocity, all are PERFECT for any and all situations along the coast here.

Gumboot458's "Spruce King" is another example of this done well - an indestructable .458Win.

quote:

Originally posted by Joel/AK:
I like it. Its starting to make my mind think.

My mind started to think the other day but then. . . . . it just quit!

Well, I needed something to do this nice Sunday afternoon, so I borrowed a friends cronograph and went back to the range. I tested several loads, one of which was the 458, since I looked on my notes, and the load cronied previously isn't the one I'm using now. The speed is an average of 2224 fps. That's better than I thought.

PWS mentioned Gumboot's spruce king. Yea, I shot that rifle a few times in Hoonah, and certainly it influenced my decisions about putting this rifle together. There were many factors to consider, from barrel length, contour/weight, and twist.

As I said, initially I thought the 450 Marlin chambered on a Ruger short magnum action was gonna work - surely. But it fed so poorly that I gave up on it. This 458 is a much better way to go. PacNor just set the barrel back a turn, and reamed the chamber to 458, and installed it on the Ruger standard magnum action.

They already charged me to install the barrel on the short action, (my decision - my mistake) and they naturally charged me again to install on the std action. So, it wasn't cheap, but they trued the front of the receiver, and lapped the lugs too. It's a first class job. They cut the chamber - no throat - then cut the throat as a seperate step, based on dummy rounds I sent them. The throat is exactly as I described what I wanted over the phone. I sorta expected that it wouldn't turn out as I described, but they did it just like I wanted. I'm impressed with that - really.

I figured that if I didn't like it with the short throat, I could always have it reamed out to SAAMI std. I have been wanting to try a short throat for a long time, and decided to not pass up the opportunity this time. So far, I'm glad it's short. Some say that you give up nothing in accuracy with the std long throat, but I've always thought that just isn't so. Without having a custom barrel with an actual short throat, there's no way to test the notion. And really, I see no need for the full blast factory ammo, outside Africa, and there are no factory 458WM loads using 350gr bullets. Apparantly Federal makes a full-blast 400 gr TBBC ammo, but have you checked the price on factory 458 ammo lately? That Federal 400gr factory ammo might chamber in this rifle, but I would be afraid the pull the trigger, since I didn't work up to that load, so I don't know if it's safe in a non-std chamber.

After today's range session, I noticed that the 1x4 Leupold scope is a bit hazy. I've been sorta noticing that lately, but I thought it was just a reflection, the light or something. Well, it's gotten worse. I'm pretty sure that something has broken or come loose inside. If so, this is the first Leupold that has happened with for me. I remember Gumboot was always breaking scopes on his 458. He would send them in, and they would come back all fixed, and he would break them again. I figured it was just Gumboot, or lesser scopes than Leupold. Now I see that maybe even a Leupy isn't immune to recoil. If this is the case, then that sets up a problem that I don't know what to do about. I hesitant to think about iron sights only - no scope.

KB

KB

A friend of mine used a 416 Rigby to hunt pigs. He use a Leupold 1.5 to 5.

It ket breaking and he would send it back and they would fix it. Usually the crosshairs would break.

The last time he sent it in they gave him a call and asked WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO OUR SCOPE???

well he was not shooting that much, but he was hunting in very rugged country and traveling around in the ATV was taking its toll on the scope.

Leupold told him to get their scope designed for shotgun slug hunting with the Heavy Duplex. He did and never had any more problems.

You might have Leupold fit the Heavy Duplex into your scope when you send it in.

N E 450,
This is the 1x4 VX-II Leupold shotgun scope with the heavy duplex. It's not the newer version, but I bought it new two or three years ago from a Midway sale.

And it's not the crosshairs that's the problem. It looks like the lenses are cracked or have lost alignment, since looking through the scope looks like haze or fog that varies with slight shift of view. I can look through the objective end, and see an odd circle in the middle, and what looks like chips in the lense - inside. And, I'm reasonably sure this scope hasn't been bumped or dropped, since I'm the only one using it. If it's broke, it's gotta be from recoil, and it's been on the 458 for maybe 50 shots. Before that, it was on a 35 Whelen. It hasn't been on a four wheeler. So far, it's just been in my truck between town to the range. From the looks of it, I can't trust it to take to the trails or woods like I planned.

KB

Word on the street is that the 2.5x Compact model is the Luepold of choice to stand up to a steady diet of .458Lott. Interesting advice about the shotgun model. They should be able to "take it".


Did you have to make any modifications to the action to get it to feed?

Thanks for the info on the .450Marlin in a short action. That'd be a slick setup also - if it worked without major modifications.

I called Leupold - tech support, and spoke with a nice fellow. I got the info to send the 1x4 back for repairs. The issue of course is it broke once, so what's to keep the same thing from happening again? I dunno.

The main thing that came out of the conversation that may be of interest to everyone is that the Leupold engineers are designing a new 3X scope to reintroduce later this year or early next year. So, if you want to offer your opinion to Leupold about this 3X, now's the time.

I'm going to write a letter with the return of this 1x4 telling them what I would like to see, (buy) which is a scope with near 5" eye relief, wide FOV, full size eye-piece (not the same as on the 2.5X Ultralight), and plenty of length to mount properly on a standard or long action, and plenty tough for big recoil. I might even suggest 2.5 power rather than 3X, since this kind of scope is particularly useful for dangerous game, or a real bush whacker rifle, and low power is a plus.

IMO, Leupold really missed the boat when they dropped the old 3X, and now offer only the 2.5x Ultralight. If the 2.5x was just a little longer, and had a normal size eye-piece, it would probably be OK.

One of those little holograph red-dot scopes might be the trick, if I could figure out how to mount it on the Ruger. Most look like they come with the Weaver type attachment base.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by PWS:

Did you have to make any modifications to the action to get it to feed?

I didn't have to make any modifications to the action at all for feeding the 458WM.

I was really dissappointed that the 450 Marlin didn't work out. There are those who say it works for them, in a short bolt action. Good for them. It didn't work well enough to suit me, which is the only opinion I'll listen to on that subject. Initally, I went with the 450 because logically it will should work in a bolt action, and I read several reports of success. Basically, I came to the conclusion that they settled for less than perfect feeding, and their poor advice led me down the la-la path. Maybe a push feed would be better. Either way, I'll never go back to a 450 or a bolt action 45-70. The 458 Ruger is slick and trouble free as far as feeding goes.

KB

KB

For a DG rifle I like the Docter Optic best of the red dot sights I have used.

The Docter is not shown available by Midway.

This site shows that they are not water proof: http://www.trijicon.com/user/p..._row=1&categoryID=13

IMO, any scope, red dot or conventional, in Alaska has to be water proof.

The Burris FastFire II looks like it might be an option. It's water proof. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=776514

Also the Burris site shows a base for the Ruger. Whether it actually fits the Ruger 77 MKII or not, is still a question. I can't find the base on Midway. It looks like it would be a really small sight, low profile, and quick.

KB

Hey just FYI..
Check this out
http://www.steyrarms.com/produ...ing-rifles/big-bore/

I've seen two or three of those on Gunbroker. Now, I have to take back something I said. I would definatley make an exception on having a 450 Marlin for one of those Steyrs. Those gotta be good rifles. I just couldn't quite raise the cash to buy one, each time I saw one listed.

I just looked, and there's one listed on GB now.

KB

Since I want to use this rifle, this summer and fall, I went ahead and ordered this: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx..._reg__RECEIVER_SIGHT

I plan on using it with the aperture screwed out, leaving just the threaded hole. Hopefully it will be similar to a ghost ring. I'll have the mate NECG front sight installed.

I took the scope off, and went out and shot six times late yesterday. Really it seems much milder than with the scope on, but it's the same load - in a lighter rifle (by the weight of the scope and rings). With recoil enough to bust a Leupold, it ain't mild, but it seems much more managable without the scope, at least to me. I'm wondering if othere have the same experience?

It's also interesting how easy it is to hit very close to the spot I'm looking at with both eyes open, just by pointing like a shotgun, at about 25 yds.

KB