I am contemplating a brown bear hunt and the choice is between a 300 Wby and a 375 H&H.

For all the obvious reasons the 375 would be preferred, except for one: I already own the 300 Wby, am familiar with it, and can shoot it well.

I wonder if there would be much practical difference, though. The 200 grain .308 bullet has the same sectional density as the 300 grain .375 bullet and therefore should penetrate well if premium bullets are used.

On game like caribou and elk I have been impressed with the 180 grain Nosler in the 300 Wby. A big bull elk dropped in its tracks after being shot through both lungs (and two ribs) with one. One Alaska guide I met had just bought a 300 RUM, though he uses 200 grain bullets. On the other hand, I spoke with one guide who will not let hunters take certain shots with rifles less than a .375, and he says Nosler partitions (300 grain)don't hold together. He recommends A-frames. Another guide says shoot the bear behind the shoulder, because trying to break the shoulder is like breaking granite. He prefers the .375. On the other hand, a guy who steered me to this guide used a 300 WM.

Maybe the real advantage is the "comfort factor" of having a big hole in the barrel!

Then of course there was Jack O'Conner. I just reread, in Outdoor Life, his claim that the 130 grain .270 bullet is adequate (but he prefers to shoot them at "long range.") That's not for me.

I am interested in any opinions from those who have experience. This is NOT one of those "let's see if we can kill a deer with a .223 under optimum conditions" posts, because real hunting often does not have optimum conditions. The shot might hit the shoulder and there just might be a charge.

BTW: I am not interested in a .338 because I don't think it is that much of an improvement over a .300 Wby. As for bigger rifles, I already have a .458.

A 458WM is what I am taking to Kodiak May 1st. Bigger is better. Your weatherby with 200-
250g projectiles will kill just fine

Good luck!!

The 300 wby would work fine with the 200gr nosler or x or swift at 3000fps or so,but if i had the choice between the 300wby or 458 ???458 no question shots will be 200yds and under,load a 400gr swift or 400gr x bullet at 2300-2400fps and go kill a brownie.

Indy,

Having lived with big bears on a daily basis for 20 plus years believe me a bigger hole in a bear is better. Many bears have been shot successfully with 30's of all types but the 375 is UNDOUBTEDLY the preferred caliber.

If you are not going to buy another rifle take your 458 as previously suggested. A good guide will not let you shoot at a bear over 200 yd. and he will prefer to get a lot closer. My neighbor has guided bear hunters for 30 years and he carries his 458 for everything.

In the final analysis though if you are not comfortable with a 375 or bigger rifle you are better off with your 300.
A 200gr. NP in the lungs is far better than a larger bullet in the guts.

When you get ready to book your hunt let me show you what I can provide. I have 3-4 really excellent guys hunting the Peninsula, Kodiak Is. and Western AK.

Regards,

Mark

When I go, I will be taking my .416 Weatherby Magnum. I practice regularly with it now and am as accurate with it as I am with any lesser caliber. Use your .458 or if you are looking for an excuse for a .375, buy one instead. Either way, practice with it until you are as accurate as you are with the 300. I think you yourself summed it best when you ended with your statement "this is not let's see...". You don't want to miss the once in a lifetime opportunity nor do you want the guide to have to finish your job.
Stay well and good luck,
Paul

I took my Brown Bear with a .300 Win mag, using a 200 grain Nosler Partition bullet at 2900 fps. I got a one shot kill, but that experience with addition Bears presenting themselves at the shot tought me, more rifle is better. I took a .340 Wby next trip and now hunt with a .358 STA using a 270 grain North Fork bullet at 2950 fps. Shoot the .375 if you can handle it instinctively. If you decide you cannot handle the .375 instinctively, pack the .300 Wby with at least a 200 grain premium bullet it shoots best. Good luck and good shooting.

Take the .375 <> Will says it best " Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun".

I don't think there is a finer bear rifle than a 458 win mag. A 350 gr .458" bullet @ 2400-2500 fps is flat enough shooting for 200 yds and change, has recoil on par with a 375 H&H, but hits much harder. You don't even need "premium" bullets, the speer and hornady cup core 350's are fine, but there is no reason not to use the X bullet.

I don't think anyone will argue that a 30 caliber can't kill a bear, or that it isn't sufficient under ideal situations. The thing is, you don't know what situations you'll face, and if you can shoot a bigger gun as accurately as a smaller gun, the bigger gun is never the wrong choice.

As far as there not being much difference between a 300 and 375, I'd have to disagree there. Yes, the 30 caliber can be made to penetrate deeply by using a tough heavy bullet. The trouble is, you give up the wound channel to get that penetration. Another important point is that the larger bores provide consistant blood trails, small bores generally have the entrance and exit wounds close up with fur and fat and don't leave a trail.

i just completed a week long class at the heckler and koch law enforcemnt academy in VA for tactical medics (TEMS). we had lengthy lectures on ballistic injuries, penetrating chest trauma, temporary and permanent wound channels, etc.

paul's post is spot on.

use a heavier gun. i too thought about using a .300 wthby with 220 gr. i am glad i went with a .340 wthbby and 250 gr. good luck.

cold zero

Indy:

Well, I wasn't going to comment since I've been flamed before but I see there are others who agree with me on the subject. There is no way I'd use any .30 cal. rifle for the large bears nor would I hunt with someone using one. To me, the min. cal. is .338. Use your .375 instead. You have no idea what "pucker factor" is until you've been very close to one of these animals in the flesh.

Last Oct. my partner & I were jumped by a Brownie at about 25 yds. while elk hunting on Afognak Island. He slowly closed on us to about 10 yds. We didn't shoot and he gradually turned & walked off. Had he taken 1 more step, there would have been blood on the ground - either his or ours. This was the 2nd time in my life when I felt my .338 was about as useful as a .22. On every one of my hunting trips to Afognak, we've encountered bears relatively close. This while elk hunting, not bear hunting.

Don't go screwing around, use your .375. As far as I'm concerned, the guys that argue that you're perfectly ok for the .30 cals. haven't been "up close & personal" very often with these animals. Take my comments for whatever you think they're worth. Bear in Fairbanks

I have to agree with Bear. For several years I used a great 300Wby extensively in BC. After a while it started to sink in that I wasn't using it for the 500 yard shots we read about. For the typical hunting conditions, a larger bore made sense. In essence, I was more concerned about bears at 20 feet than I was about an elk at a quarter mile.



I still have that rifle, but it now wears a 23" 358 Norma barrel. I carry it with 250 grain North Forks at 2750 fps, and the "pucker factor" has gone waaaaayyyy down when carrying it along streambanks polluted with grizzly tracks.



Is the 300 Wby okay? Probably. But spend some time in the bush with the grizzlies and you WILL gravitate toward a rifle with a larger hole in the barrel, regardless of what the internet experts have to say.

Its been well said earlier by others. Just my 2 cents: after shooting a Peninsula brownie with a .375 a couple years ago, and being bluff charged up close and personal a half dozen times while moose hunting last fall (too many late salmon = too many bears = too few moose), I bought a .416 Rem mag. You don't know it's a bluff charge until they stop, sometimes just a few feet away. How does the saying go about Hell Hath No Fury......My hunted bear was hit solid in the boiler room with a 300 grain A frame, and then took off like a locomotive (fortunately not directly at me) and it took another solid hit to put it down
If you do use your .300, consider loading some 200 grain Northforks. They shoot 0.50-0.75 MOA in my .300 RUM (which I would personally not consider for Big Browns) with a couple different powders and loads, and by all repute have outstanding terminal performance (I hope to test on elk this fall). Also, if you're looking for a guide, send me a PM and I'll direct to you an outstanding fellow.

If you are comfortable with the 300 Weatherby then by all means take it. Under certain conditions is a 375 better? you bet, but the 300 Weatherby has been used by hunters for over 50 yers to effectively take all of the world's game. The central issue here is your level of comfort. USe a good premium bullet like a Swift A Frame or whatever your rifle likes and go for it. jorge

Question? Would you take the .300 for a Cape Buffalo hunt? A big bear is almost as big and has a more "keyed - up" nervous system. They hunt things to eat, and have more of "fight before flight" reflex not graze around on grass, hunted as prey, and "flight before fight" as an buffalo. Second, why do you have the .458 if not for big nasties?

As a disclaimer, I've never hunted Alaska, but one of my best friends has been 4 times, and I've got other close friends that have been more than once. I've just bought a .375 and I'm probably going to use it on a moose hunt in a couple of years just because I might wander upon a bear while looking for the moose . I have also been considering getting a Ruger 77 MkII in .338. I always need a "reason" for a new gun. Ask a guide if there is a difference between a .300 with 200 grain bullets and a .338 with 250 gr., and I bet you get the "big difference" answer. A .338 Win Mag is as Alaskan as ankle fit hip boots.

My advice would be to take the .458 with lighter bullets, but with a good solid as that last shell in the magazine for any "nose-to-nose" situations.

I own a 300 Win Mag, a 338 Win Mag, a 375H&H, and a 416 Taylor. When it comes time to purposely hunt brown bears, I ALWAYS choose the .416 Taylor.

The 338WM is now my Mt Goat/Sheep rifle, because those durn bears don't seem to realize that I'm not hunting them at the time...

(...the 300WM stays home these days)

Oh yeah, the 375H&H is too pretty for Alaska...

Answer: If given a choice no I would not take a 300 Weatherby for Cape Buffalo. You are talking apples and oranges. A 300 is illegal for buffalo. FOr the record, the 300 Weatehrby has been used many times to kill buffalo. Moreover, most if not ALL Alaskan Outfitters don't have a problem with you bringing a 300 Weatehrby for bear. Anatomically, they are very different also. Buffs are ungulates and have a much less developed CNS than bears do. jorge

There was recently a guy that shot one each of all the big game (yes, including a brown) up here with a......... 308 winchester. Now with that said would I go out for a brown with something like that, no way. I use a 338WM for everything up here, it's a good all around gun. If you already have a 458 and shoot it well, no need to buy another rifle (unless you need an excuse for the wife), use that. I noticed you said you weren't interested in the 338, but if you were going to buy another rifle you might want to look at the ballistics of the different 338's offered. Even at the bottom of the totem pole the 338WM has more energy than a 30cal and better down range energy than a 375 H&H. You move up to the 340WBY or the 338 UM and you're talking about some horse power! Many of the guides I know up here really don't want you to use anything smaller than a 338. If anyone wants a picture of what a brown can do to you, I'll e-mail a pic of a guy that was half eaten by one (yes it's a real police photo)

I want to thank everybody for their comments. I'm pretty well convinced to not take the .300 if I go on such a trip.

I've been analyzing the data on 400 grain .458s at 2350 fps and 300 grain .375s at 2600 fps and, believe it or not, when sighted in for 200 yards, they are both within 2" of each other at 300 yards, farther than I would be likely to shoot.

The only reason I can think of for buying a .375 and not taking the .458 is that the .458 recoils about 50% more than the .375. If I find that tolerable, can you think of any other reason to prefer a .375?

Now my .458 has a nice wood stock and blued barrel, so I will have to wax or otherwise protect it.

If you stick with 350 gr bullets, the 458's recoil is on par with a 375, don't know how much more 400's will recoil but it shouldn't be that bad. It's when you launch the 500 gr bullets that the recoil gets your attention.

With my previous 458 Lott, I fired plenty of 350 and 500 gr bullets. 350's @ 2400-2500 fps were very shootable. 500 gr @ 2300 fps made it an entirely different gun.

Wow I guess Im an idiot. Ive been hunting bear for years up here with a bow and occasionally a pistol. A man working in a gun shop killed a 10+ footer with a .308 using 150 grain barnes X 1 shot just 3 years ago. What did the old timers do before all this firepower. Must of just been eatin I guess. I have had many close encounters with large brown bears, surprisingly enough more when Im sheep hunting then when Im bear hunting. I think and dont flame me too much, but if a 300 wby wont do it a 338 wont either. Just my opinion and I know now that Im an idiot! At very close range not even my guide gun makes me feel good. The truth is your looking death in the eye. If its your day theres not much you can do. And if it decides to really charge once its at 10 yards it doesnt much matter what you use, ITS YOUR DAY! LOL These are just my opinions, but I would use what you shoot best.

Alaskan1911: Now that you have opened the can, I will throw in a few more worms to get things going. I am not a bear hunter. That said, I must admit that after reading countless stories about bears and hunters, I have to agree with you.

Sometimes nothing seems to stop a CHARGING bear unless by luck one breaks the spine, the neck, or shoot through the brain. Sometimes they drop to heart shots, too. But in reality, lots of hunting rifles can easily kill a bear one is hunting, and at times can even stop a bear during a charge. The records show that most bears in Alaska are killed with guns from the .30-06 to the.338WM. These may be "all around cartridges, or hunting cartridges, not necessarily "stoppers" like the big cannons talked about here. It's also a fact that lots of bears have been injured by all cartridges, big and small. The records also show that some of the big bears (polar and brown) have also been killed with shotguns in Alaska (two brown bears within the last 16 months or so). In the video "Pursuing The Bruin," several grizzly are killed by bow hunters from tree stands, and others from high points or banks next to creeks. Some bears ran about 50 yards after being pierced by the arrow, but some fell much closer.

I imagine that a bear on a full charge towards a hunter would be a very difficult target to acquire, so at close range even a cannon can miss the vitals, brain, spine, etc. I would agree that if the hunter is a good shot, he or she would probably shoot through the center of mass on a frontal charge at CLOSE range, since there is not much time to aim, and in that case maybe a cannon would kill a little deader. Some large bears have been killed with shotguns in such a fashion. A little old lady dropped a polar bear on her porch at Churchill, Canada a few years ago. She shot it through the lungs/heart with her shotgun loaded with 00 buck shot, a frontal shot dropped the bear instantly as it was coming into the house.

Now, a hunter from the Lower-48 would be wise to ask the guide ahead of time about firearm/ammo selection. I bet the guide will say that a .300 Wby. and premium ammo that is loaded with heavy and tough bullets will work. I remember reading a hunting report in the NRA's American Hunter magazine, where the guides specifically indicated to their clients to bring the biggest guns they could shoot well, from the .30-06 and up. They also indicated to use factory ammo, including 190 to 200-grain bullets for the .30-06. The average shot was taken near a stream, at not more than 75 yards. The guides, of course, had big guns for backing their clients.

Heres another thing to think about. All that stuff of only a bullet larger than 30 cal will penetrate the skull is BS too. Sure with a thick skull anything could ricochet but most wont. An aquantance of mine has lived here for all his 60 years, he was in the bush for many of those. He tells stories of how most of the natives and bush people out in remote alaska carry .223's and .243's. They dont like tearing up meat at all. Many brown bear have been shot in the head and killed with these. Read Chuck Adams book "life at full draw", his polar bear guide didnt speak english and carried a .243 for back-up.
Now all this said everyone here is correct, its personal preference and what your GUIDE is comfortable with. Tell your guide about the guns you have and how well you shoot them. Let him help you make the call. Then both of you are happy. But please dont go buy a gun just to come up here. Unless your like me and will use any excuse you can think of to get a new one LOL! Regardless of what Im packin nothing makes me feel good staring death in the eye. And regardless of what Im using to take a bear I always wait for the right moment. Good Luck

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Bow hunting for browns......my hat off to you. You're either crazy or have balls of steal! You're right about one thing, if a bear is anywhere near and charges you have about enough time to Sh!# yourself before he's on you, they're quick for as big as they are.

Never tried smoking hooligan; sounds like a pretty good idea.

Are you hunting the interior for a bear as part of a moose/caribou/sheep trip or are you hunting coastal brown bear in the AK peninsula/kodiak etc?

If you're hunting interior or tundra bears the ranges are typically longer and the bears smaller. A 300 mag or 338 would be fine. With the longer ranges you may want something that is a flatter shooter than a .458.

If I was hunting a big close coastal bear...did I mention big?..and I had a .458 in the cabinet I can't think of a better time to have that in my hands.

I would put a fraction of the cost of a new .375 into getting good with the .458 and bring that along. Start with lighter loads and work your way up. Put a good decelerator recoil pad on it... whatever it takes..

Not to beat a dead dog but a) you have a .458 b) you are going to Alaska to pick a fight with big mean eat your a## bears c) If not now ...just exactly when are you planning on using that .458?

I have not hunted brown bear but I've talked with those who have. The consistant thread to their story is that the bears took a lot of punishment. 5 rounds from a 300mag in one case and 4 from a .416 in another. Not all bears will behave that way but I would think you'de want to be prepared for it.Honestly bear hunting seems to me to be an instance where poor marksmanship is not acceptable and given good marksmanship, more gun is better.

My .02

Eric

EricG,

Good point about where you're hunting.

Here's the story about how I got the .458. My father went to Tanganyika (now Tanzania) hunting in the 1960s. He and his friends shot an Elephant with 300 Weatherby rifles with 200 grain Noslers, the old type that were machined. I think the PH shot a time or two with a heavy rifle. The elephant apparently took a long time to die.

He was so scared by the experience that, when he returned, he bought a .458. Never went back to Africa, though. Never fired it. I inherited it. It's a Safari Grade, post '64, push feed.

I know, I know, I know that many on this board like controlled round feed, but I am a high-power match shooter. I have shot many thousands of rounds rapid fire through both types of rifles and never had a problem.

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Hooligan are going to start running here shortly arn't they? Smoked hooligan sounds great. And, if you not afraid of clogging your heart with fried food, they are great fried in an inch or two of oil. Finger food. Spring is on the way.

Here in New England, some enjoy taking the anadromous herring roe home to eat--if there are any left in your bucket after livelining them for big striped bass. Here in PDRMA, most folks simply catch them with hand nets in pinch points in a feeder running to the ocean, or in some manmade runs that allow dipnetting, though the limits aren't Alaska big. Depending on where you are, it's 10-25 a day, I believe.

The way most do it is to simply roll the egg sacs (which are elongated, and contained within a membrane, perhaps 4 inches long and 1/2 lb) in corn meal, then fry in bacon grease. It can be eaten as is, or spread on toast (must be an old English thing). Good now and again, but as it's super rich, it's eaten by most in moderate amounts. Like once or twice a season.

Leighton

Last year for S&G I smoked up some of the first run herring into Valdez. As an evening snack where you have time to pick around the bones, they weren't half bad at all. Matter of fact pretty good eaten.

HI,


Martin, I would also like to look at it too , that is one hell of a round,Kev

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Liked your pictures. I came home to Juneau before the spawn, but took part in the herring fishery for the 1rst time as a fisherman since I sold my permit in "88, as a fisherman, (sonar operator on a boat from Homer) I'd been back on 3 previous occasions as a tender skipper. I've always loved the Sitka area. First time there was in 1955, helped run a gill-net boat back to Sitka late in the fall. from my home town of Haines. This year I also used my seiner as a pump boat and tender, jumping in to a speed boat to go get my rig as soon as the circle was closed, and getting back in time to hold the float (corkline) line up as the 200 ton set was pursed in the seine, then pump fish for a few hours. Really great to see the herring stock so fully recovered from the 1960 on, pulpmill fish kills. I returned from the Coast Guard hitch and was working in Sitka during the 60' spawn. All of Silver bay down to Jamestown Bay was covered solid with dead herring from bank to bank, from the discharge, speckled white with dying poisoned seagulls. Eaulacon oil is practically oderless if it's rendered with out rotting the fish first like the Indians do, or if it's charcoal strained. The natives like the fuller flavor. No worse than Limburger, Balut, Norwegian "stockfish" (Artic airdried cod) anchovy Paste and other assorted ethnic delicacys. The british let their poultry and ducks rot before the are considered eatable. I had a crewman one time who had spent the winter on Savoonga, St Lawrence Island, with the Eskimos. Pulled a fermented seal flipper out of a baggie he had in his packsack to snack on right in my galley, now that would have put hair on your chest, lead in your pencil, or something. It would sure snap your pipe, I'll vouch for that!

Wouldn't have to think twice about using a .300 Weatherby, I use a .300 Win mag for everything, only other rifle I carry on a regular basis is a Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70. If you are confident of your shooting capabilities with the .300, that counts for a whole lot more than bore size, a good shot with a .300 beats a crappy shot with a .375 any day. I have shot .338s and .375 extensively, but I must say I prefer a .300 Win mag with 200gr Partitions, they do the job right every single time.

HI,

WALEX, that is disgusting, I like to think I am open minded but I must draw the line on eating rotten seal fins?,Kev

HI,

Martin the only thing I would use is the .510 bullets as I shoot my 50-110 all the time, I am getting a browning 95 lever. I am thinging down the road of converting it to a 9.3X62?,so no .458, I just chron some of my cut dowm woodeighs ,560grain at 2040 fps,Kev

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walex,

Always appreciate your posts! It's a learning experience each time I read one. I should be heading to Juneau a few weeks, maybe we can hook up for a beer or coffee?

You bet I drew the line on that one, GETIT TA HELL OFFA THE GODDAM BOATN BURY IT SOMEWHERE! Good thing I was able to pull rank on him. Nother thing I draw the line on when it comes to ethnic delicacy is fermented (rotten) salmon eggs. Another hazzard that goes with Alaska Living, which I rank right up there with Brown Bear RAsslin', is in the fall when the salmon have died and decomposed and all the dogs I ever knew just love to roll and cavort in the stuff, then run home all giggly-happy and rub on Ol' Massa's leg! Hoo boy!