I wasn't sure where to post this, but this forum seemed like a very good bet.

Does anyone have any specific ballistic numbers or comments? I'm kind of interested in the stainless Puma Model 92 and wonder what the velocity of a 400 gr revolver lead handload would be out of this neat carbine.

Also, how much extra energy would be available using slower powders to take advantage of the extra barrel length? Has anyone see posted data?

Got any links to technical articles? The only good gun review I have found doesn't include any ballistics ;(

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_12_50/ai_n6275752

Just curious.... I'd really like to hear from anyone who has shot one of these. Seems like it would be a great brush gun. Backup would be a Ruger Alaskan in the same caliber. They would both be strictly for bear/ moose protection - no hunting. Thanks.

John Davies
Spokane WA

I don,t have any info concerning the carbine but I,ve been packing 480 ruger revolvers since the year they came out......The 7 1/2 " barrel on my Super Redhawks give a velocity of 1175 fps with the Buffalo Bore 410 gr. lfn cast bullet ammo.. It penetrates real well and doesn,t recoil that bad .. Great combo .. I want to get a 480 Alaskan also.. I,ll be keeping an eye on this to see what your query brings........I would not hesitate to shoot a moose with my revolver >>>....

I haven't shot one out of a 20" carbine but based on what I've seen in a 44 mag in revolvers and closed breach guns, aka contenders, my guestimate is you'll gain about 100 fps going from a 7 1/2" revolver to a closed breach 10" barrel, and then gain about 20-30 fps/in after that, so an additonsal 200-300 fps for a total gain of 300-400 fps over a 7 1/2" revovler.

That will be pumping out 400 gr @ 1500-1600 fps, thus making it more powerful than a 475 Linebaugh revolver, and less powerful than a 45-70 rifle.

I don't know that you'd gain anything by going to slower powders, despite the longer barrel I don't think you'll have enough case capacity to take advantage of slower powders.

If you look in the favorite loads forum and run a search for 480 you'll find the writeup I've done on my revolver.

As to the Ruger Alaskan SRH, IMHO they went too short on the barrel and you seriously sacrifice shootability due to the short sight radius and increased recoil. Get a std barrel gun cut down to 4 1/2 or 5 inches and you have perfection.

[quote]don,t have any info concerning the carbine but I,ve been packing 480 ruger revolvers since the year they came out......The 7 1/2 " barrel on my Super Redhawks give a velocity of 1175 fps with the Buffalo Bore 410 gr. lfn cast bullet ammo.. It penetrates real well and doesn,t recoil that bad .. Great combo .. I want to get a 480 Alaskan also.. I,ll be keeping an eye on this to see what your query brings........I would not hesitate to shoot a moose with my revolver >>>....

I have a friend who shot a cow muskox with his 480 ruger a couple of years ago. He was usign heavy cast bullets( can't remember which one), and got a shot through both lungs. Losta blood out both holes and a quick death. Muskox aren't known for being tough, but that size of a hole through anythings chest should casue them to reach their expiration date. I can't imagine that you would find anything different with a moose.

-phil

quote:

That will be pumping out 400 gr @ 1500-1600 fps, thus making it more powerful than a 475 Linebaugh revolver, and less powerful than a 45-70 rifle.

If you look in the favorite loads forum and run a search for 480 you'll find the writeup I've done on my revolver.

As to the Ruger Alaskan SRH, IMHO they went too short on the barrel and you seriously sacrifice shootability due to the short sight radius and increased recoil. Get a std barrel gun cut down to 4 1/2 or 5 inches and you have perfection.

Thanks very much for the info - I will check out your 480 load data. I accept that the Alaskan is underbarrelled, but I _really_ need the extra portability of the snubby barrel. I ride a dirt bike in north Idaho and Montana, and need to be able to carry the gun in my little tank bag for protection from the elements (rain and dust) yet still allow quick access. A SRH with a 4.5 inch barrel just won't fit in there, though otherwise I would love to have one.

I'm still looking for a 480 Alaskan. I had a lead on one, but it turned out to be a bogus ad at the incredibly screwed up GunsAmerica.com website. Those poor guys who run the site - I pity them. They are getting hammered from frustrated sellers and buyers and they don't seem to be able to fix the site. It's a real mess.

If you get the carbine, let us know what your results are. I've often thought about getting one but the quality of the rifles seems too low for the asking price.

I do plan to get another 480 SRH, a 9 1/2" and cut it down to 5". Then I plan to take the stub and make a 48 special on a super blackhawk. I figure 310 gr @ 700 fps ought to be nice and pleasant, and the smaller case should provide good accuracy at the reduced velocity.

Not much data to share, but I do have one of the 20" Pumas. 21 grains of H110 behind the RCBS 400 SWC runs between 1100 and 1150 in my 7.5" SRH and just shy of 1400 in the Puma.

quote:

Not much data to share, but I do have one of the 20" Pumas. 21 grains of H110 behind the RCBS 400 SWC runs between 1100 and 1150 in my 7.5" SRH and just shy of 1400 in the Puma.

Thanks. Do you have any comments about the Puma that you can share? I'm looking for a handy, big bore camp/ bear/ fun-to-shoot lever gun. I don't plan to hunt with it. Some people have complained about the quality vs price. How does your rifle look, in terms of fit and finish?

Thanks.

JD

Expect "around" 3/400 fps over a 7.5" revolver.That's the way it works with the .454.

Jayco

quote:

I'm looking for a handy, big bore camp/ bear/ fun-to-shoot lever gun. I don't plan to hunt with it. Some people have complained about the quality vs price. How does your rifle look, in terms of fit and finish?

It looks great to me because it functions flawlessly and shoots beautifully. Fit and finish aren't on par with some of the more expensive '92's out there, the sights are a little crude, and that safety on top of the bolt needs to go, but overall I'm happy with it. FWIW, I've seen a couple with that dark finished stripped off the wood, and an oil finish applied -- they really look nice!

They have made some improvements over the last few years. My brother and I have a pair of the early 454's and they had a couple of problems that have been fixed in the newer 480. The wood appears just a little thicker under the barrel band where both the 454's cracked almost immediately, and the plastic cap on the inner magazine tube has been replaced with a steel cap that threads into the outer tube.

quote:

Expect "around" 3/400 fps over a 7.5" revolver.That's the way it works with the .454.

I'd be surprised if you can gain that much with the 480. Jim Taylor and JohnK over at leverguns.com did quite a bit of experimenting and collecting of data a while back, and it looks like the difference you can expect from pistol to rifle is almost entirely dependent on the size of the powder charge. The Casull loads running 30+ grains of powder did give those kinds of increases, but not many 480 loads are using that much powder.

Cannon, thanks for the informative reply. Do you have a nice big pic you can post? I haven't seen anything but little grainy web images, and I haven't found a gun to handle.

John Davies
Spokane WA

John,

You can see a few pictures here.

Quality isn't great -- I just didn't have enough light. #1 is the complete rifle, the rest are detail shots. The last couple are of the 454 to show the regular sights and the old style mag tube.

I went back and looked at my data, and the only other load I've chronographed in both guns is 18.5 gr. IMR 4227 behind the 400 grain Speer JSP. That one runs 900 in the SRH and 1000 in the Puma.

Strange thing about that load is that it is probably the cleanest handload, bar none, that I've ever shot. The inside of the cases just shine, even though the pressure should be lower than where 4227 usually works best.

Something else that comes to mind -- I sometimes take advantage of the cylinder length on the SRH by crimping bullets (like Paul H's 460) in the first lube groove. Paul's 460 loaded at 1.725" feeds, but the throat in the Puma won't allow it to fully chamber. The Cast Performance 370 loaded at 1.765" won't feed (but, as I recall, will chamber).


Paul, Please PM/email me regarding the 48 Spl. I have some information you might find interesting.

quote:

You can see a few pictures here.

Thanks very much. That is pretty much what I expected. I have a little stainless Taurus M62 gallery gun in 22LR and the machining looks like yours - "rough but serviceable" would be my evaluation. The insides won't win any beauty contests. Looks like the top safeties on both guns came out of the same box....

John Davies
Spokane WA

You should get more out of a Puma lever action such as the one listed here (click on Puma):
http://www.legacysports.com/product/index.htm

But be aware that you may have to replace the recoil pad if shooting full-load .454 Casull ammo. I have heard that the recoil is similar to a .45-70.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
I haven't shot one out of a 20" carbine but based on what I've seen in a 44 mag in revolvers and closed breach guns, aka contenders, my guestimate is you'll gain about 100 fps going from a 7 1/2" revolver to a closed breach 10" barrel, and then gain about 20-30 fps/in after that, so an additonsal 200-300 fps for a total gain of 300-400 fps over a 7 1/2" revovler.

That will be pumping out 400 gr @ 1500-1600 fps, thus making it more powerful than a 475 Linebaugh revolver, and less powerful than a 45-70 rifle.

I don't know that you'd gain anything by going to slower powders, despite the longer barrel I don't think you'll have enough case capacity to take advantage of slower powders.

If you look in the favorite loads forum and run a search for 480 you'll find the writeup I've done on my revolver.

As to the Ruger Alaskan SRH, IMHO they went too short on the barrel and you seriously sacrifice shootability due to the short sight radius and increased recoil. Get a std barrel gun cut down to 4 1/2 or 5 inches and you have perfection.

The information I've read about the 454 casull is it dupicates a standard 45-70 round so a 480 would exceed a 45-70 round.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray:
You should get more out of a Puma lever action such as the one listed here (click on Puma):
http://www.legacysports.com/product/index.htm

But be aware that you may have to replace the recoil pad if shooting full-load .454 Casull ammo. I have heard that the recoil is similar to a .45-70.

I fired the Puma 454 casull at Raahauges Shooting Sports Show in Corona,CA it's not that bad but it really didn't fit me it's too small for my frame, I have a 20" bullberry encore barrel in 454 casull and factory ammo doesn't shock my system,my own hand loads perform better using cast performance bullets with Win 296/H 110. http://www.raahauges.com scroll down the left side bar to Sports Fair and click on the oval to view the companies with their weapons that you can try before buying.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray:
You should get more out of a Puma lever action such as the one listed here (click on Puma):
http://www.legacysports.com/product/index.htm

But be aware that you may have to replace the recoil pad if shooting full-load .454 Casull ammo. I have heard that the recoil is similar to a .45-70.

You won't have to replace the recoil pad it's adequate for the rifle and ammo.

[/QUOTE]The information I've read about the 454 casull is it dupicates a standard 45-70 round so a 480 would exceed a 45-70 round.[/QUOTE]

I don't have the ballistics for heavier than 335-grain bullets for the .454 Casull, but here are some for both:

.480 with a 7-1/2" barrel

275-grain JHP (C)
Muzzle = 1450 fps
50 yds = 1284 fps

325-grain XTP (H)
Muzzle = 1350 fps
50 yds = 1191 fps

325-grain JHP (C)
Muzzle = 1350 fps
50 yds = 1223 fps

400-grain XTP (H)
Muzzle = 1100
50 yds = 1027 fps
-----------------------

.454 Casull with the same barrel length exceeds the .480 velocities and energies by a great margin. For example:

300-grain JHP (H)
Muzzle = 1650 fps
50 yds = 1478 fps

320-grain FP (CB)
Muzzle = 1600 fps
50 yds = 1437 fps

335-grain L (CB)
Muzzle = 1600 fps
50 yds = 1441 fps

In every ballistics table I looked at on the Internet, the factory ammo for the .454 exceeds the velocities and energies of the .480 with similar weight bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray:

The information I've read about the 454 casull is it dupicates a standard 45-70 round so a 480 would exceed a 45-70 round.[/QUOTE]

I don't have the ballistics for heavier than 335-grain bullets for the .454 Casull, but here are some for both:

.480 with a 7-1/2" barrel

275-grain JHP (C)
Muzzle = 1450 fps
50 yds = 1284 fps

325-grain XTP (H)
Muzzle = 1350 fps
50 yds = 1191 fps

325-grain JHP (C)
Muzzle = 1350 fps
50 yds = 1223 fps

400-grain XTP (H)
Muzzle = 1100
50 yds = 1027 fps
-----------------------

.454 Casull with the same barrel length exceeds the .480 velocities and energies by a great margin. For example:

300-grain JHP (H)
Muzzle = 1650 fps
50 yds = 1478 fps

320-grain FP (CB)
Muzzle = 1600 fps
50 yds = 1437 fps

335-grain L (CB)
Muzzle = 1600 fps
50 yds = 1441 fps

In every ballistics table I looked at on the Internet, the factory ammo for the .454 exceeds the velocities and energies of the .480 with similar weight bullets.[/QUOTE]when i fired the ruger super redhawk in 454 casull then fired the 480 recoil was a lot more from the 480, enough so that i have no desire to fire either of them again.

scr83jp:

I have a Freedom Arms 7-1/2" barrel .454 Casull, and maybe because it's so heavy the recoil is not bad at all. However, soon after I purchased it, I shipped it to Freedom Arms for Magna-Porting, and this made even easier to shoot. I am used to it already, and shoot it during the summer, and before moose season.

I don't hunt with it, but carry it in a bandoleer holster while moose hunting with my .338WM rifle.

Here's a NEW online review with video of a Puma .480 rifle (20 inch barrel). There are also chorono results, which are interesting.

http://www.gunblast.com/Puma480.htm

The video link is in the upper right.

Here are the ballistics:

LOAD WEIGHT VELOCITY
Hornady XTP 325 1561
Hornady XTP 400 1328
Cor-Bon DPX 275 1828
Buffalo Bore WFN 410 1407
Buffalo Bore LFN 370 1477
Grizzly Punch 340 1303
Grizzly JSP 350 1423
Grizzly LFN 375 1392
Grizzly JSP 400 1254
Grizzly WFN 425 1171
Handload LFN 325 1155
Handload Punch 370 1482
Handload XPB 275 1855

John Davies
Spokane WA

quote:

Originally posted by scr83jp:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
I haven't shot one out of a 20" carbine but based on what I've seen in a 44 mag in revolvers and closed breach guns, aka contenders, my guestimate is you'll gain about 100 fps going from a 7 1/2" revolver to a closed breach 10" barrel, and then gain about 20-30 fps/in after that, so an additonsal 200-300 fps for a total gain of 300-400 fps over a 7 1/2" revovler.

That will be pumping out 400 gr @ 1500-1600 fps, thus making it more powerful than a 475 Linebaugh revolver, and less powerful than a 45-70 rifle.

I don't know that you'd gain anything by going to slower powders, despite the longer barrel I don't think you'll have enough case capacity to take advantage of slower powders.

If you look in the favorite loads forum and run a search for 480 you'll find the writeup I've done on my revolver.

As to the Ruger Alaskan SRH, IMHO they went too short on the barrel and you seriously sacrifice shootability due to the short sight radius and increased recoil. Get a std barrel gun cut down to 4 1/2 or 5 inches and you have perfection.

The information I've read about the 454 casull is it dupicates a standard 45-70 round so a 480 would exceed a 45-70 round.

You must be talking about original black powder 45-70 loads, in which case both the 454 and 480 will exceed those levels in a rifle. If you're talking modern 45-70 ie marlin loads, then they both fall short.

The 475 Linebaugh in a revolver matches the black powder 45-70 rifle performance.

,,I think a 410 gr .475 dia. bullet @ 1400 fps would have as great an affect on large game as a .452 360 gr bullet @ 1600 fps.. And it would do so with less pressure......Which is a good thing.. The big thing with the Puma is if it is at least as reliable as the marlin...... The nice thing about the Super Redhawk Alaskan ,,, It makes such a great back pocket gun ... and in a serious caliber....I like the 7.5 " barrel on the stanard SRH .. But the snubby,s portability works well for trips to the biffy or other non hunting protection .....