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Alaska: Hiker Kills Bear with AK-74
The Truth About Guns ^ | July 31, 2013 | Robert Farago

Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2013 7:41:45 PM by Kip Russell

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. Failing that caliber. Failing that lots of shots on target. To wit: “The hiker, who has not been identified by Alaska State Troopers, had set out from the Rainbow trail head at Milepost 108 of the highway Sunday morning, said Tom Crockett, a park ranger. He was near the first Turnagain Arm viewpoint, about a half-mile up the trail toward McHugh Creek, when he spotted the bear . . . The man called, “Hey, bear,” hoping not to startle the animal, he said. The bear turned and charged, the hiker later told rangers. The man fired the AK-74 he was carrying . . .

The bear stopped after the first volley of shots, and then charged again. The man fired once more. That time the bear folded into a ball, rolling and running downhill and thudding to a stop in a clump of birch trees about 100 yards from the trail.

newsminer.com reckons the hiker needed 13 shots to take down the 500 – 600 pound bear. Like I said

4-5 years back, the Indians down Ft. Yukon killed a wayward sow polar bear with .556 Ar. The bear had been seen wandering around the village a few days and two guys followed tracks about 1/2 mile outta village and shot it a few times, killed the bear. One of the Indians here in Eagle was from Ft. Yukon and related to the shooter, had picts he sent her; so I heard the whole story.

In rural Alaska, everybody uses cheap old military rifles and now people are buying ARs. I have a bunch of .556s that we have pretty much stopped using with all the new calibers coming out. We have killed a bunch of caribou and close to 20 blk bear with the 6.8 over the last 5-6 years. Have a 338 fed Ar-10 that killed 3 moose one year; everybody wanted to use the gun. My new hunter is a 308 Scar, even got a Gisselle trigger for her. Be killing with her pretty quick too; caribou are already here. Mostly the Indians have old Springfields, M1s, SKS, and Mosins; whites are buying the heck outta ARs.

Most Alaskans that I see from urban areas use regular hunting rifles, very few military guns. The Ars are great with two points on 4 wheelers & snowmachines. I have red dot / ghost ring Acogs on mine and you ain't going to find faster shooters on the fly. We like Ars out this way.

quote:

newsminer.com reckons the hiker needed 13 shots to take down the 500 – 600 pound bear. Like I said

More like the guy just kept pulling the trigger
until it was down and far enough away since it was rolling.

You don't know whether the first or last bullet killed it so you keep shooting as with any DG animal.

Perfect example of why he should have been carrying bear spray. It probably would have saved the bear's life and him some work on skinning it out for the DLP thing.

Sports Afield had a couple of articles a few months back concerning the effectiveness of bear spray.

I try to carry bear spray all the time when I'm in AK, along with a pistol or long gun.

I wish he'd just backed off and used bear spray if the bear got nosey. But, McHugh Creek has had many bear problems in the past, so it is tough to second guess his actions.

I do question his carrying a AK-74. If you're going to carry a big ass military semi auto for bear protection, go for the bigger bore and carry the AK-47. I gotta say, that's a new one. Most everyone I see or know carries a .44 or above pistol or a pistol grip 12 ga. shotgun.

quote:

Originally posted by A7Dave:
I wish he'd just backed off and used bear spray if the bear got nosey. But, McHugh Creek has had many bear problems in the past, so it is tough to second guess his actions.

I do question his carrying a AK-74. If you're going to carry a big ass military semi auto for bear protection, go for the bigger bore and carry the AK-47. I gotta say, that's a new one. Most everyone I see or know carries a .44 or above pistol or a pistol grip 12 ga. shotgun.

What can one say maybe the only gun he owned. Or he just wanted to get use to carrying it and happen to run into a nasty bear.

Bear spray isn't the end all for bear protection.

I find it is pushed more by people worried more about the bear then humans.

quote:

Originally posted by Redlander:
Perfect example of why he should have been carrying bear spray. It probably would have saved the bear's life and him some work on skinning it out for the DLP thing.

Sports Afield had a couple of articles a few months back concerning the effectiveness of bear spray.

I try to carry bear spray all the time when I'm in AK, along with a pistol or long gun.

I didn't gather from the article that there was a clear advantage to using spray or not. I think he tried to warn the bear audibly and it charged anyway?

The AK is an odd choice and if it was the only gun he owned it certainly was a poor one for here.

As has been mentioned, that area is known for bear encounters. Maybe he should have chosen a better place to hike? I've spent quite a bit of time outdoors this year and its interesting that I haven't had to ward of voracious bears yet. Maybe I'm just lucky.

Scott,

I hate to be the one to tell you this.......it's your God awful BO. Brown bears who eat rotten fish can't even stand it.

Pee-you!

Mark

quote:

Bear spray isn't the end all for bear protection.

I find it is pushed more by people worried more about the bear then humans.

The study referenced in Sports Afield found that outcomes for both the bear and the people (considering both injuries and deaths) were better when spray was used. A little reading of the literature is better than supposition.

My preference is both. Bear spray if the situation warrants, a gun if the spray isn't going to do the deal.

Also, in Alaska, if you DLP a bear (shoot it in Defense of Life or Property) and are not in possesion of a bear tag, and guide if a non-resident, you must undergo an "an@l exam" by the State Troopers, then you have to salvage both the hide and skull and give it to the Troopers. I'd much rather avoid that if possible. Quite simply, the guy should have spent $35 on some bear spray, regardless of his choice of weapon. I've been up there enough to know there are plenty of goobers in Los Anchorage that are nowhere near competent outdoorspersons. I've read a more indepth article on this incident, I place that guy in that category.

This article from the Alaska Dispatch references the same study.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by A7Dave:
I wish he'd just backed off and used bear spray if the bear got nosey. But, McHugh Creek has had many bear problems in the past, so it is tough to second guess his actions.

I do question his carrying a AK-74. If you're going to carry a big ass military semi auto for bear protection, go for the bigger bore and carry the AK-47. I gotta say, that's a new one. Most everyone I see or know carries a .44 or above pistol or a pistol grip 12 ga. shotgun.

What can one say maybe the only gun he owned. Or he just wanted to get use to carrying it and happen to run into a nasty bear.

Bear spray isn't the end all for bear protection.

I find it is pushed more by people worried more about the bear then humans.

I'm quite clear on the difference between bears and humans. This guy frequents my neighborhood:



He left this print right next to my truck. I always carry bear spray when I hike, and usually a gun. In Anchorage...I carry a gun as much as possible. The zombies in town are much more unpredictable than the bears.

I have a 338 fed AR-10 that feels like an M-14, just too dang heavy; but good for a trk gun. The ole favorite is my 6.8 stag that is around 6 lbs and has killed a bunch of bear, one shot.

We have a bunch of Euro tourists that float from Whitehorse down the Yukon until they have had enough. Most are now finding shotguns to keep with them on their trip. Even the greenies don't trust bear spray; but they think you should.

quote:

Originally posted by Zhurh:
I have a 338 fed AR-10 that feels like an M-14, just too dang heavy; but good for a trk gun. The ole favorite is my 6.8 stag that is around 6 lbs and has killed a bunch of bear, one shot.

We have a bunch of Euro tourists that float from Whitehorse down the Yukon until they have had enough. Most are now finding shotguns to keep with them on their trip. Even the greenies don't trust bear spray; but they think you should.

Euro tourists with shotguns ...
last time i checked at the Custom at Haines they told me 6 months of wait fom BATF ... they must be well prepared in advance on the paper side ,,,

The greenies must have heard "shotgun Joe". Too bad they can't take him along and all get eaten!

I actually met this guy at a local shop where he had purchased the AK 74. He was there bragging about it when I was poking around for ammo.

From what I have heard about this shoot it was questionable at best. The first shots where outside of what I would consider DLP range, and most of his shots where into the rear end of a running away bear.



I've been charged twice and within 20 yards of a lot of bears and aside from one warning shot I haven't had to pull the trigger yet.

There was a guy who shot a brown bear sow on the kenai a few years ago with a ak 47. Again it was a questionable shoot and if memory serves they guy got into a fair bit of trouble. I tend to question some of these "tactical toms". too many of them walk around in thier army surplus gear dreaming of being a soldier.

I'm thinking "Hey bear" might mean something else in Bear language.

Serious question. If you're carrying a rifle, and you reach for bear spray, if the bear charges you pretty much just have bear spray at that point don't you? If it's not a bluff charge they're awfully fast, I don't see being able to spray a bear and get my rifle up in time. So, I'm guessing at least you're counting on the bear spray to stop the charge? I do know a lot of guides swear by bear spray.

quote:

Originally posted by Thebear_78:
I actually met this guy at a local shop where he had purchased the AK 74. He was there bragging about it when I was poking around for ammo.

From what I have heard about this shoot it was questionable at best. The first shots where outside of what I would consider DLP range, and most of his shots where into the rear end of a running away bear.



I've been charged twice and within 20 yards of a lot of bears and aside from one warning shot I haven't had to pull the trigger yet.

There was a guy who shot a brown bear sow on the kenai a few years ago with a ak 47. Again it was a questionable shoot and if memory serves they guy got into a fair bit of trouble. I tend to question some of these "tactical toms". too many of them walk around in thier army surplus gear dreaming of being a soldier.

About the time I read your sentence, "He was in there bragging about it,.." I started to suspect it wasn't good.

I've only heard of one person, one place, one time that favored the .223, assault rifle style for bear defense. The story went that in a head on charge scenario, rapid fire to the front of the bear with fmj bullets would penetrate the cns.

K.

Even here in DLG where every home has a black rifle or several, I'd consider anyone out hiking with their AK as either looking to make a point with the hiking public or looking for trouble. Sounds like the shooter in Anchorage found it and likes to brag.

I'll be out in brown bear country again today and I don't feel the slightest inclination to pack around my black rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
I'm thinking "Hey bear" might mean something else in Bear language.

Serious question. If you're carrying a rifle, and you reach for bear spray, if the bear charges you pretty much just have bear spray at that point don't you? If it's not a bluff charge they're awfully fast, I don't see being able to spray a bear and get my rifle up in time. So, I'm guessing at least you're counting on the bear spray to stop the charge? I do know a lot of guides swear by bear spray.

Chuck,

here we called the bear spray bear seasonning. never heard a guide or real outdoor guy using nor recommending them.

the last tudy made by Yukon Cos bring the same as i was thinking first they took off then they come back to even roll into the bear sprayed area if the bear has been already sprayed he s not even leaving the place now what other option you have when the bear is getting really close ...

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
I'm thinking "Hey bear" might mean something else in Bear language.

Serious question. If you're carrying a rifle, and you reach for bear spray, if the bear charges you pretty much just have bear spray at that point don't you? If it's not a bluff charge they're awfully fast, I don't see being able to spray a bear and get my rifle up in time. So, I'm guessing at least you're counting on the bear spray to stop the charge? I do know a lot of guides swear by bear spray.

Chuck,

here we called the bear spray bear seasonning. never heard a guide or real outdoor guy using nor recommending them.

the last tudy made by Yukon Cos bring the same as i was thinking first they took off then they come back to even roll into the bear sprayed area if the bear has been already sprayed he s not even leaving the place now what other option you have when the bear is getting really close ...

Meved I agree with you. In my case, I'm pretty damn familiar with my pistols and rifles and not a bit with bear spray. I could just see myself fumbling with a can trying to read the instructions which are too small for me to see as a 1000 lb brown bear barrels down the path. Not a good image.

quote:

Originally posted by medved:
here we called the bear spray bear seasonning. never heard a guide or real outdoor guy using nor recommending them.

I believe Phil Shoemaker, aka 458 here on the AR forums recommends bear spray. Not sure Shoemaker meets your definition of "guide or real outdoor guy,".

I also recommend bear spray. The facts are that it works, studies have proven it and in reality, most tourist outdoorsmen visiting AK aren't capable of either the before or after of deadly force being used. Come to think of it, many resident aren't capable either. Here's what I mean: I live, recreate and work in bear country. That means I have the tools, the assistance and in my case the experience of rolling around and disassembling several hundred pound bears. These aren't 200# blackies, these are 6-1000# hunks 'o dead bear. The folks coming here to salmon fish or bird watch, even caribou hunt don't and I mean have proven themselves to not have the capability of properly using deadly force and cleaning up the resulting mess. If you haven't considered disassembling a July bear and then loading the raw skin and skull into your motorhome or raft for the remainder of the vacation,.......well you just haven't thought that thru very well. Have you brought enough rope on your fishing trip to use for tying legs up and to trees while skinning? You of course brought your pack frame bird watching so you can pack the hide and skull to the raft?

As to my bona fides, I've actual experience taking a few of the things. I've shot, turned the ears and eyelids, salted the toes and had the hide sealed. Additionally, I fish with bears. I hunt, camp, target shoot and work along side of bears. I do not recommend firearms as a first line of defense against bears. This last fall I field processed two moose on a salmon stream in bear country.

The issue I have with these post is the same as several others on AR. "Gotta get really close when hunting dg." Gotta use a double rifle only on dg." Gotta use a 416 or larger on dg." "Bears are so really big and scary you gotta be armed with a magnum while in bear country." It just isn't so. We click and clack on our computers and lather each other up into this big hysterical bundle of nerves, buy the shinyest 460 S&W we can and head for AK, cuz, "by golly I'm ready for those maurders!"

You will ruin your vacation here if you dlp a bear, whether you have to or not, whether you want to or not. Sorry to be a buzz kill.

I don't doubt your or Phil's opinion in the least Scott or your bonafides, just my own ability to use the spray under pressure (no pun intended)

Never thought otherwise Chuck.

Not suggesting you contribute, but you do see what I mean about the exponentially growing hysteria? I had a guy here on AR telling me, ( from CA no less,) that he'd not hunt bears here with no less than some gargantuan .500 something or another! Ludicrous and miss informed to think someone "needs" to use anything bigger than a 300 win or an -06 as Shoemaker notes.

In truth, the only thing I worry about around here regarding bears is my dog. Shes a fragile little thing, likes to go out in the dark of night and theres been some scoundrel bear running around the neighborhood recently stealing moose antlers, garbage cans, etc,.. A couple of weeks ago the hooligan grabbed my 38" moose head and chewed the skull up good. Damn him. I'd hate to have my prized dog bump into the bear in the dark.

Other than the bone chewer, I see no reason to arm myself with the ultra mag as a defense measure.

I do sport a tin foil hat regularly, but thats another subject.

As I have said here on AR several times before, a little common sense and practical living should in most cases alleviate hazardous bear encounters. .577 T.Rex not needed.

I have a friend who took 13 shot from a mini-14 to stop a brown bear on Montague island while deer hunting.

Guess that means the 7.62x39 is no better than the .223 lol.

I did speak with a fellow here just the other day that likes his .223 for moose hunting in close. I have no use for the .223 or 7.62 x39 myself locally, especially for bears.

quote:

Originally posted by Redlander:
Perfect example of why he should have been carrying bear spray. It probably would have saved the bear's life and him some work on skinning it out for the DLP thing.

Sports Afield had a couple of articles a few months back concerning the effectiveness of bear spray.

I try to carry bear spray all the time when I'm in AK, along with a pistol or long gun.

The problem with relying on bear spray alone is as follows:

a. The wind is blowing toward you. In this case you should spray yourself with the bear spray to make yourself more tasty to the bear

b. You have to keep bear sprays from freezing. While that should not have been a problem in the story above (still warm), it could be a problem in Alaska by mid September.

Always interesting up there, I wish I was moving back up there. Maybe some day again.

to each is own opinion.

i wont use them some will and everybody is doing his own choices and preferences.

last time i spoke with Taj he was telling me that our small moutain grizzlies are more agressive that the big brown bear they had on the peninsula so maybe the reason bears are not the same everywhere.

all the best.

Phil

How about one of those hockey game air horns up close and personal?
I'd like to see bear's reaction with that. Of course, gun in my hand at that

Medved, The Euro tourists I have seen with shotguns bought them from Indians; who usually don't pay attention to any govt laws in the Yukon or Alaska. In Alaska, people still buy & sell such things cash, no questions asked amongst locals.

Talked with a fellow that shot a grizzly in Montana Bob Marshall wilderness as the bear was coming up the tree after him.


He did have a can of spray but the day before he said it fell out of its holster hit a rock and holed it losing all it contents.

One shot at about 5 feet to the bears head from his 44 mag did the trick.

I'll admit never having been in AK, but I have heard how fast a grizz can be, so this question - if the bear sees you before you see it, how in the world are you going to be able to use a gun as a backup to spray if carrying both?

Seems like there'd be time for only one. And you'd have to pick spray or gun real quick like.

Same question with carrying both rifle and handgun. As a practical matter wouldn't you have time for only one?

And I guess this makes three questions, but with a real heavy kicking handgun, aren't you running the risk of "one and done"?? I can see that being the argument for a 41 or 44 magnum instead of the super heavies for the average person.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
I'll admit never having been in AK, but I have heard how fast a grizz can be, so this question - if the bear sees you before you see it, how in the world are you going to be able to use a gun as a backup to spray if carrying both?

Seems like there'd be time for only one. And you'd have to pick spray or gun real quick like.

Same question with carrying both rifle and handgun. As a practical matter wouldn't you have time for only one?

And I guess this makes three questions, but with a real heavy kicking handgun, aren't you running the risk of "one and done"?? I can see that being the argument for a 41 or 44 magnum instead of the super heavies for the average person.

The scenario I have actually watched, (grizzly on sleeping caribou,) and what I've always assumed would happen is, "Bounce, bounce, and he's on you!". Meaning, the bear sees you, makes two jumps or bounds and lands in the middle of you. If the bear were closer than that I imagine a tackle like in football on the line of scrimage. You're both on your feet, he reaches over and swats you.

A slung rifle or holstered pistol or spray in either case is little use. No, I don't advocate nor do I personally carry anything unslung/ holstered and cocked. The advantage I see to the spray in addition to there being no terminal clean up responsibilities is that the aim needn't be precise and the bear is actively trying to take it in by breathing and running toward you with its eyes open. The bear is actually trying to suck the spray in its nose with each inhale. A pretty close shot with spray means the bear gets a snoot full. A pretty close shot with the firearm either means theres no affect or the bear is injured and now more determined to eliminate the threat you pose. I never carry both of anything. I bring a handgun fishing/ camping and a rifle hunting.On the occasions I am wing shooting, sometimes I only have a shotgun and its worked fine so far, i.e., I haven't tried to use it on a bear yet.

I agree with you, the really big magnums are a bad idea for defense. Locally, you cannot walk around without being off balance. The ground cover is a mix of generations of grasses, shrubery and trees, some live many not, all in some state of decay. Oh, yeah, lots of knee deep holes nicelly camoflaged by the shrubery. Foot positioning and proper shooting stance is out of the question. If you're discharging any kind of weapon as a defense from attack, you'll allready be off balance without question. You light off a .500 something, it'll end up in the shrubery and some other guy will be there with a metal detector looking for it next week or next spring.

Its not that its just not practical, really its just not possible to possess/ brandish all this stuff while goofing around up here. You just can't sport fish/ camp, and pack around the rifle, spray, packs, knives, handguns, ropes, hatchets, winches, and where withall to kill the maurading brownies. If your here hunting, its a little different story, but I guess you gotta ask yourself, do you want a bull moose or do you wanna spend the trip goofing with a dead 3 year old cub or a sow? By the way, the bears that get dlp'd ain't trophies friends, their orphans, little cubs, sows with cubs, and otherwise. The 9.5' 28" skull boars don't get shot in self defense. They're too old, too smart, and let the little kids go in as cannon fodder. Anybody here ever here a cub bawl for mamma? Your wife will never forgive you for orphaning that cub because you needed to stick your chest out.

Intelligent thinking and common sense will keep you safe in 99.9% of the Alaska outdoor situations. For that last .1%, if its a bear, I recommend the spray to tourists.

On my only brown bear hunt (I'm a noob) a 3 year old ran into camp. Of course it was raining all day so my rifle was leaning on the raft with it's scope covers on. I was glassing the far shore of the lake. The three year old paid my guide a visit while he was "doing his bizness", my guide had his rifle ready and yelled at him. He came running right at me and I yelled at him too cause my rifle was far enough away I could have left it at home. That happened once more (he was in a pickle) and he finally ran off into the brush. The second time my rifle was in my hand but the scope covers were still on. I didn't even think about shooting him. I was damned if I was going to waste what may have been my only brown bear hunt on a three year old. Then again my life expectancy isn't great so and I'm on beta blockers so my hands are way steadier than they should be lol ...

Well played Chuck.

If one has never seen a bear run through the woods.

One can't believe how fast they are they are fast. Getting surprised by one at close range in full charge would be very touchy no matter what one had in his hands.

But given any thing more then like two seconds of warning, if you mind is not in a fog or thinking this can't be happening.

One should be able to mount some type of defense, spray, firearm or what ever you have.

But it takes practice and recognizing the danger.

A lot of people get caught flat footed and say after wards I couldn't believe it was happening to me in a lot of self defense situations.

Being aware and knowing your surroundings not only helps you to avoid most all of them but allows you to react properly when the time comes.

I tell myself I'm aware of my surroundings.

I keep telling and telling myself.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
I tell myself I'm aware of my surroundings.

I keep telling and telling myself.

How one slept, what other things are going on ,a fight with the wife, running late, weather almost anything can lead to distraction.

Some days it takes a lot of will power.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
How about one of those hockey game air horns up close and personal?
I'd like to see bear's reaction with that. Of course, gun in my hand at that

My neighbor lady (an old Alaskan) uses one on the cow moose that like to drop their calves in her back yard. She lets her little Yorkie out to pee at 0400 and then is shocked to find a grumpy cow moose who wants to stomp her little dog. She'll wake up the neighborhood with that damn horn, but the moose just looks at her like she's an idiot.

It doesn't bother the moose or the occasional black bear. I wouldn't expect a grizzly to be any different.