Well, it looks as if there's progress on opening up the Haul Road corridor for public use with ATV's. Sen. Seekin's bill was passed yesterday in committee but the Dems wanted a reconsideration. The thinking is however that it'll pass again by the same margin.
It's about time we got to use our public land. Ever since Carter's land grab, everybody in Ak. has been "equal". It's just that some have been "more equal" than others. Maybe this will level the playing field some. Of course the "greenies" don't like it but my attitude is "screw them". Just my thoughts. The whole article is in the Thurs. Fbks. Daily News Miner. Hopefully, within about 2 years we can take our Atv's up there & get some winter meat without having to backpack it out 5 miles.
That's it for now. Bear in Fairbanks

Maybe it'll keep the greenies busy so we can get some get some resource development projects going.

The real question is are trails going to be added in conjuction with the bill? I'd hate to see tundra ripped up with criss crossed trails, and without adding a trail network, the bill is pretty useless.

There are some trails there already. And it would only be for the area below Dietrict. That's just north of Coldfoot. There is a trail to Bettles that is used in the winter, with a little work it could make a good ATV trail. And there is others that would also be good without tearing up the Tundra.

I am glad to hear that it is only below Dietrict camp. I like it the way it is. If you don't want to pack it five miles, buy a bow.

As it is I can hunt right from the road. If atv's are allowed then it guarantees there won't be any game within fourty miles from the road, let alone five.

I never unstood the bow hunting on for five miles each side of the Dalton hwy.I heard it was fear of rifles hitting the oil trucks or the pipeline.I love the muskox hunt up there they bust your horns in half,knock off the tips ,cut off the nose of your muskox and slash the hide.Is this a hate for hunting in the reasoning.Alaska has some of the stupidest laws for hunting in the United states.The bone in leg law is another stupid law.They want to make it as hard as possible to hunt so we will quit hunting.My girlfriend took the hunters safety course last weekend and a high up guy from Fish and Game said he though hunting would end in the next generation.They already have done away with most of the hunting on alot of the road system.They want residents and nonresidents to use guides or fly out to hunt so the tour buses can have the road system to themselves.

The days of the original "Haul Road" are over. It's been steadily upgraded over the past several years and there are plans to continue. Yes, there are still ugly sections, but a lot of it has been chip sealed, has had curves straightend and grades lowered, etc. You can bet it's not only the North Slope truck traffic that's going to make use of the improved road. And there are a couple of "Industrial Road" projects that Frank wants to punch east and west from the Dalton to access resources. The NIMBY guys and greenies will be whining but access is gonna happen.

quote:

As it is I can hunt right from the road. If atv's are allowed then it guarantees there won't be any game within fourty miles from the road, let alone five.

RMiller:
Sorry, I don't see how this holds water.. That's the same argument the "tundra huggers" used in pre Prudhoe Bay days. "Oh, heaven forbid! The pipeline will force the caribou migration to change & the poor animals will become extinct."
That didn't happen as we all know. At the time, I was stupid enough to buy into that argument but no more. I could see changes in game management/harvest but can't go with your point. Also, any argument about the danger to the pipeline from firearms is plain stupid. We all remember the "nut case" that put a hole in the pipeline years ago with his .338 up near Livengood. If somebody wants to do it, they will. Finally, I'm not even remotely interestd in bow hunting so why should I be "forced" into it?
Bear in Fairbanks

Its the oil company BP that want no hunting near its precious pipe line.You have to get a backgrounjd check to just get a permit to cross it even though large parts are under ground.it actually divides the state in half.I got a stupid permit but was not allowed to cross to hunt where I had a goat permit in unit 13 last year.The company Princess tours want to pave both the Dalton hwy and the Denali hwy with hunting on neither of them afterwards.That will probally come to be in the next 10 years or so.

I guess I'm one of those whining greens that have fought to have wild places for everyone to hunt....until now that is......I hope that each of you gets all of the access, resource development, and economic growth that you want....not another peep from this green hunter....I hope that you get the 600 plus trails open that Gov. Murky proposes....many through your back yards....I hope you get the haul road opened to atv access just so you can fight w/the ecotour companies when they over-run the area as well with cleaner burning atvs....I hope that they drill all over ANWR so we can be free of the pesky middle-eastern oil producers where we get 19% of our oil....I hope that you can camp in privately run State Parks; they're "wild places" for some now....Pebble Mine???? Why not? The Mulchatna Herd is toast anyway....the cyanide processing won't leach into streams or ground water....yeah, when you get old, you can tell the grandkids about how it was....make sure you're taking plenty of pictures. Geez!

Joe

Ever been up the taylor highway. Or the Steese. Ten thousand hunters and no game. If you do hunt there with a four wheeler better be ready for a fourty mile ride in. The hunting starts where the four wheelers end.

Sorry about my rant but the last couple of years I have been trying to figure out the best way to do some hunting in this state. I have lived up here for twenty years and thought that the best chance is to go to controlled use areas and figured the haul road may be a good place to start. I have been up there three times before and had a blast each time. It has been the only place I have been to that isn't chocked with hunters.

I used to live in Palmer and found that the best hunting for me was during the seven day bow season Aug 10-17. Hardly any hunters and the moose aren't spooked liked crazy.

Other than that I found that the most game can be found the farther you get from the people and the traffic.

I guess I'm a greenie hunter too.........I think this bill sucks. The access is equal now, get out and walk! I have atv's and I do use them to hunt with sometimes so I'm not one of these extremists. Its just nice to be able to go hunt someplace that isn't carved up with trails or have some dim wit spook the caribou your trying to put a stalk on. I just don't understand the attitude that everything has to be exploited.

The hunting starts where the four wheelers end.

I agree. I made the mistake of driving through the Denail highway once during caribou season. There was NO place to pull off of the road in 130 miles ue to the literally 1-2000 trucks on every semi-flat pice of shoulder, most with trailers. I used to fly that area regularly, and understand that you have to have an atv to get to the animals because everyone else has one (that is, except the kids that are the future of our sport).

As for the idea that riders will stay on trails, especially when 'hunting', that's absurd. Fly over the Kenai or Seward peninnsula some time and look at the 40-lane wide mud bogs that pass for trails.

Access is equal right now, it just requires a tiny bit of effort. When I'm too old to do that, its time to pass thr torch.

Bob

" Fly over the Kenai or Seward peninnsula some time and look at the 40-lane wide mud bogs that pass for trails."

You must be flying a different Kenai than I The only place I have seen any tore up mud bogs is the pipeline right of way in Gray Clifs/Moose Point The most torn up I have seen is Gun Site Mtn. area

It seems that everyone from Anchorage and Fairbanks that does not fly out has to come to unit 20d to hunt moose.I use to see caribou about 7 years ago on the Denali hwy before the state gave out about 40,000 tier II either sex permits.They knocked thye herd down from 65,000 to below 30,000.The tier II permit is supose to be for long time use of meat from an area.It kills me to see 60 foot rvs with 18 atvs and they are starving for food.They usually brought out caribou whole and let them rot to feed to the dog later.If the f&g had their way now there would be no hunting from the road system just tour buses.They try to make it as hard as possible for hunters to hunt so they will quit.Its funny naties in unit 26 or 23 can shoot caribou from a boat with 22 lr.If that aint hunting I dont know what is.You cant hunt around Fairbanks unless you get drawn with a bow or a small #of muzzleloader permits.Anchorage is even worse you have to go about 70 miles outside on the Glen hwy not sure how far up the parksd hwy.You would think that the Dalton Hwy would have awesome hunting.It does for sheep.The bird limit also kills me about 40 a day but you have to use a bow for 5 miles each side.The Dalton is a 530 mile long dirt road that is controled by the oil company tied with the pipeline.They sure give the oil companies way more rights than hunters.The guy from F&G at my girlfriends hunter safety course said that they were gearing up for the end of hunting.They make it so difficult that people just stop going.You cant hunt Alaska without a 4 wheeler any more.They go further and further each year.If Fort Greeely where I live is closed to hunting it will be a big lost to the area.Its 670,000 acres total .We are loosing ground each and every year in Alaska the state that you thought there would always be hunting.

quote:

You have to get a backgrounjd check to just get a permit

dgr416,

Where did you get this bullshit information. Sometimes the stuff you post on here would be funny except for the fact that you actually believe it and unfortunately someone else might believe your nonsense.

I talked to F&G and have lived here the last 8 years.The F&G is not so much for hunters like you think.They built a 60 mile road to PoGO mine in the goodpasture with public funds on public lands but it is closed to use for hunting.Fort greely is supose to close for hunting due to the missle base built there.Read the reg book all the way through and see how many regs there are against hunting.Its made to be so complicated that someway or another your breaking the law.If you dont believe me about the muskox hunt on the Dalton hwy look at the tier II booklet.Look at the reg book it has in their about shooting the caribou with a 22 only in that one area.I hope that they do open the Dalton to hunting more.Its a long haul to walk 5 miles with your gear and game to hunt with your gun.

quote:

I talked to F&G and have lived here the last 8 years

Boy, howdy! Are you an Old Timer, or what? 8 years of inexperience. Or, might I say, 1 year of stupid, 8 times.

BP and "their precious pipeline", eh? You are a dickweed of the n'th degree. What you do know would not fill a thimble.

What a DORK you are and that's a compliment.

DB

Its the turd roller again .Ok turd roller where do you live to know so much about Alaska hunting?I guess your the gay rights supporter of the hunting world.If you read the Alaska fish and game regs you will see such regs as shooting caribou with a 22 from a boat see page 15 :Under the you may not; at the bottom of the page Taking game from a motor-driven boat if the boat is sill moving because of the motor except caribou may be taken from a moving boat in units 33 and 26.Next page 16 at the top of the page under Big Game Hunting Restrictions .Uner the yellow part Big Game may not be taken by the following methods:Using a rimfire firearm except you may use .22 caliber cartridges to take swimming caribou from a boat in units 23 and 26.Page 107 Under muskox :Tropgy value of muskox skulls taken in Tier II and registration hunts will be distroyed if removed from the Unit.If you read the tier II bookleft it tells how they bust the horns in half,bust off the tips and cut the nose off your muskox hide.On page 5 it tells of the closed areas for nonresidents in unit 17b on the rivers.That was a result of a book written about float hunting.If you read the whole Alaska Hunting Regulation booklet you will pick up a whole lot of information.I think you should stand under the pipeline a while turd roller and see what happens.

And your pointless point is???

DB

The reason that ALL of the game laws have been passed(by an independent, appointed by the governer board, the board of game, not fish and game) is a matter of public record..... I think you would find it enlightening to read some of those records and see why things such as the 17b nonresident corridor came into being.

Interesting that a "high up" guy in ADFG said that hunting would end in the next generation. Care to name any names? The general trend in this state is that the number of hunters is declining. I would bet that he stated that not to discourage people but to inform people about what is going on.

It is regretful to hear that this fine state is being opened up to and for atv's. Chances are they will not be able to stop them from tearing up the state. The foothold for "opening" this country took place along time ago. What you see now with low numbers of harvest is due to exposure. Their is ethical hunters and there is those that leave the meat and take out the head/antlers.
I have lived here all my life and am now 49yrs. I have family up and down the Koyukon River and nothing now is the same. I have worked for Doyon Drilling for a little over 4 yrs. and have seen how man and animal can coexist but their is some "unseen" damage that is not accountable at present.
The change of events for "money" is saddening. If you and there is still a place but if you find a piece of glimmer and great joy in an area that you regarded hihgly with success keep it a secret-it won't last long.
I've worked on the haul road in its birth and what a contrast today.

Grizz,

That is the terrible conundrum, if easy access if provided to the wilderness for everyone, then what makes the wilderness special is then gone.

As much as it would be nice to have the convenience of roads criss crossing the state, then it would be no different than the lower 48, and you couldn't get to spots where you could walk 100 miles in any direction and not see a single road.

I'd like you to elaborate on your comment about the unseen damage if you would care.

I did finally locate that 30-338 article.

Paul, I weighed what I have seen in some animals of late and then some history of the past 40yrs in the interior all the way down to Monana Crk. when their was not a road and the only access was by railroad.
I have been there when the State maintained the road past Livengood all the way to Manley Hotsprings. When ole timers/miners regarded an animal for more than a trophy. When good breeding stock of bull moose was left alone for the cows pretty much.
I have seen Caribou meat with "green" marrow-Porcupine Caribou herd-calved in the 102 area. Moose hide with "rings" throughout and hair all but falling off. Muskrat numbers literally dropping off the scale-now some are coming back. The Eskimo inhabitants with large cases of "asthma" who reside in the upper coastal areas close the sites of driling and/or corridor.
White-wing Scoters are in a major decline, being coastal primarily and mating/offsprings in the interior.

Paul, punched the button to soon. Never did finish. Guess I am trying to say what is gonna come out this "opening" with regards to ATV's is no good. What has transpired because people want access has happened to soon in just a short time.
It will take a determined group of people to make this "hold" out for some time. Ravage the land cause you don't want to walk-sure go ahead. In the old days we walked and it surely never hurt any country, just made us stronger. Animals never paid a cost for "quiet" intrusion.
The winers get their way and shows that some never grow up and ruin things for the most, including a lifestyle.
There is hope.

First of all people talk about there being no Caribou along the Taylor highway. Yes there is
Caribou there, I shot one two years ago. About 100 yards from the road. Three years before that I shot one that had just crossed the road. Usually F&G closes the season before the main herd gets there so too many won't be killed. Same thing for the Steese.
As for the Dalton, the legislator made the five mile corridore, not because of the oil companies, but because the Natives felt that the area would be overrun with hunters. With the increase in hunters, the units on the road system is being overrun. There needs to be new areas opened or the result will be devestating to the herds along the road system.
As for walking the five miles, done that but can't do it anymore. Why should I be kept out simply because I can no longer walk that far. Still won't be able to shoot within five miles of the pipeline. Remember a few years ago there was no hunting within 1/4 mile of the highway? I was at the game board meeting that year. I had a proposal in to do away with that rule. The president of some archer association came to testafy trying to keep the rule. He was the one that had proposed it two years before. Under questioning he admitted that one of the tourbus companies had coerced him into putting in the proposal. Further questioning revealed that he worked for the tourbus company. He claimed to be for the archers, but in reality was for the tourbus company. When the next seven or eight people (all archers) got up to testify we all said that guy did not repersent or speak for us. The rule was changed so we could again hunt along the road. Access is now possiable along the Dalton highway, by taking a boat and loading your 4-wheeler then going five miles by boat then unloading the rigs and going where ever you want. I've been on several of the old Dew Line site supply trails. Most have growen up, but are still passiable if you have the right kind of rig. They are marked as Winter trails on the maps. Also I know many people that have equipment stashed out there, beyond the five mile limit. We used to go and walk to the equipment, start it up and go whereever we wanted to. As for fuel we haul it in during the winter, using a mining permit. Yes, they do mine there.
As for the pipeline not wanting people along the right of way. They see me all the time walking the right of way with a rifle or shotgun. I wave, they wave back. The pipeline runs through my back yard literally. A few times back in the late 70s the chopper would land and they would come over and ask me who I was and what I was doing there. I showed them my ID, answered their questions, shook hands. They asked me to report anything I seen that I thought was suspicious, got into their chopper and left. Never a problem. Back then we would drive the right of way at night, with a squeeling rabbit tape in the tape player. We cleaned up on foxes.

Guys,

I think I lived in Alaska long enough to be able to put forth an opinion on ATV access. I personally don't think the ATV has any place in the wilderness. If the wilderness can be accessed by everybody with an ATV it will cease to be wilderness. Folks move to and live in Alaska for various reasons but one is to be able to experience true wilderness. ATV's grinding away and destroying the tundra are not a component of wilderness. I guess the bottom line is that you can't have true wilderness and let everybody have access by whatever means they have available. Perhaps if this type of access is important to folks they should move to a place were that is possible. The difficulty of access is what keeps Alaska a special place and if that means some folks can't use ATV's in some places I think that is a heck of a good idea.

Mark

If it was up to me, which it isn't, I think that some access points for snowmachines would make a lot of sense(with dates attached, say Nov 1 to April 30). The main reason I am opposed to ATV access is that ATV make such a scar on the tundra and a few individuals can make such a mess if they use them irresponibly.


If the state would create a half dozen large gravel pads for parking for snowmachiners it would open up a lot of country and have less effect on the ground. JMHO!

I'm not an Alaskan, so I won't comment on Alaska. Here in CO, before there were too many laws on ATV access, folks just drove them everywhere. You couldn't get away from the damn things. And they tore the hell out of the landscape. Now we have legislation regulating their use, and it has helped. Of course there is the never ending battle between those who want to drive over it all, and those who don't want them to have any access to the forest. I am in the camp of carefully protecting our wilderness because there is none currently being made. What we have is it and it is only getting smaller. As someone else said, when I can't physically get there anymore, then it is time to pass the torch. I will get old, and maybe incapacitated before my time, that is part of life. Not everyone can access wilderness. I wouldn't destroy for others the wilderness I love just so I can reach it when I get too old, or too tired, or too lazy. I'm planning on moving up there in another year, and I've been saying it's something I have to do before I get too old. Maybe it's something I need to do before it's gone.

quote:

Guys,

I think I lived in Alaska long enough to be able to put forth an opinion on ATV access. I personally don't think the ATV has any place in the wilderness. If the wilderness can be accessed by everybody with an ATV it will cease to be wilderness

Good points, Mark and well said. Your feelings on snowmobiles during the winter "meat gathering"?? They are, afterall, ATV's.

Having said that, have YOU, with your personal Alaskan qualifications, ever used a snowmobile to chase Caribou, Moose, etc. Is that "Fair Chase", by your reckoning? Via ATV, I mean.

It is rather hard to properly hunt trophy Moose in Ak if one is in gasoline range of a snowmobile used by natives and residents during the lean times.

Be careful with your answer.

DB

Well I use ATVs. Have used them for 35 years, and intend to use them as long as I can climb aboard one. We currently have more areas restricted than needs to be. I for one am working hard to get those areas opened. I currently have two proposals in to elliminate the Wood River Controlled Use Area. It is only closed during the months of August and September. And then only for the transportation of hunters, game, and their equipment. I go into the area every September to visit miners that are working claims in the area. Every year several people report me for using an ATV inside the Controlled Use Area. The Troopers come out, check me out, and laugh about the false reports. What's going to happen when we get a road to Nome? Also roads to Dillingham, Galena, and to Bethel? It's going to happen. Are we supposed to put restrictions on those roads too? I don't think so. The only reason it worked on the Dalton was that the Dalton was a private road (built and maintained by the oil companies) for the first 15 years of it's existance. The law was passed during that time and no one noticed, since we could not legally go there anyway. Today, or if the state had built the road, it would never have passed.

Oh Yes, the Caribou in my avitar was the one I shot 100 yards from the Taylor highway. I used a NEF Handi Rifle in 30-06.

In today's paper they announced that BLM is proposing to open the NPR-A to coal mining(NPR-A is on the North Slope next to the Prudue Bay area). Northern Environmental here in Fairbanks has already said they have concerns about letting a road be built into the area. It would give the average Alaskian Access to a previously less accessiable area. Right now all of Alaskia is accessiable if you have an airplane or snow machine and want to deal with the logistics of getting there and back. I haul a couple of ultralight airplanes up to Galbreth Lake some years. We take off from the lake, and fly to where ever the Caribou are. We land spend the night then shoot one, and fly it back to the truck. It's legal, very doable, and lots of fun. I love to fly. But why should it be limited to us flyers?

Sourdough, I have been keeping up with you and can easily relate to your situation. I am careful to say what needs to be said. Our elders in any rural communities are regarded so long as they have proven themselves to be reliable with judgment. I have catered to mine and have aided them in asisting what they require in regards to meat. It is tough getting wore out and not being durable enough to endure any task you might dream of. It is a fact of life and I too having been exposed to some "tough" work growing up am feeling some of it now. Back is not what it use to be. This style of life is hard on the body but it keeps the muscles and the will to live - strong.
I got a kick out of your use of the Ultralights-been meaning to look into buy something with pontoons. Alaska has some of the most beautiful country imaginable-especially in the mornings an evening.
I am still against what man does so easily and that is look the other way- ATV's are still a no-no in the back woods. In this land where we occupy 1.8 million acres and have for many generations, use of ATV's is in the general area. To get into the "wilds" we charter a float plane or use boat to hike into with packboards-just being good land stewards.
Alaska is not the same as it was as I remembered growing up originally in Fairbanks from the mid 50's till now. Probably the reason now and am sure it is why I reside in my wifes country - Chandalar Country. The Koyukon region where my mother is from is not the same - the rugged beauty is now quiet and ...........
Oh well I just hope for my childrens sake they can enjoy what is quite "untouched" yet in this part of the world.

regards,
Tim

I think if those that support opening this area to ATV's could forsee how much the area would change, and how it would no longer be a wilderness, then perhaps they wouldn't be so adament at opening the area up. If you think the area is crowded now with bowhunters, imagine the quantity of hunters doubling or tripling, and heading back 20 miles either side of the coridor.

Also imagine the heards changine their migration pattern after a year two of being chased down by Bubba and Billy and their cousin Earl. I'm not saying all ATV users are irresponsible, nor even the majority, but a there it doesn't take that many boneheads to mess things up, and this state has it's share of boneheads.

I'm thinking I better make a summer roadtrip with the family up the haul road so they can see the beauty of this wilderness, while it still is wilderness.

The atv hunters on the Denali hwy chased the crap out of the caribou there.The herd would pick up after being clased and head for the hill tops.You can hardly hunt any more with out a 4 wheeler.Its usually a fricking race to a bull moose to see if its legal.Its supose to not be legal to chase them on a 4 wheeler after you spot them.There should be a few legal trails that lead to behind the bow area so that it would be easier to get into there.It has to be one of the longest bow only area in the United States.

DB

You make an excellent point. A snowmobile is an ATV of sorts. My post was directed at 3 and 4 wheelers and I didn't give a thought to snow machines.

I personally don't think they are the same thing though because the snowmachine is nowhere near as damaging to the enviroment as the 3 or 4 wheelers. On the other hand hunting from any ATV in my opinion is not fair chase in any shape or form.

As for me I went on one unsuccessful moose hunt and one unsucessful caribou hunt by snowmachine 24 years ago and that was enough. After that I went by boat or airplane to where I hunted for the next 21 years.

No matter what I think about snow machines in the wilderness or what any other non-native person thinks there will be very little restriction on their use since snow machines and Mini-14's, etc. are "Native Issues".

As for 3-4 wheelers they can be regulated and in my opinion there use should be severely limited in off road areas.

The bottom line for me is if you live on the road system in Alaska and nobody made you live there you cannot expect to enjoy the hunting and fishing that is avaialble in the bush. Move to the bush and you'll get the easy access without having to destroy the enviroment with your 3-4 wheeler but of course you'll have to forgo McDonald's, Carr's, good roads, jobs etc. that are available on the road system. You can't have it both ways.

Regards,

Mark

Grizz007: I fly an Airborne 2000, with the inflatiable floats. We can fold our wings, and put them on top of the truck. The trike will fit into the bed of my truck. That way I am not towing anything. With the wizard wing our gross is 900 lbs.

Sourdough, got a link where a fella can look at the Airborne? This ultralight thing got my attention not too long ago when I read about some of you guys using them up there.

I have no problems with the plan, since all it means is that a few more hunters will go there instead of going to the areas I hunt near Fairbanks.

Do you know that a long stretch of the Elliott has already been paved? Two years ago the new asphalt was already near Livingood, but even so I don't see any more hunters than the ones I saw ten years ago. Every year I see the same hunters from Anchorage (a group of five hunters), and the same locals I see each year.

The only time I saw hunters all over the place is when the military lands in the Tanana Flats got hunting restrictions relating to antler size, hunting training, etc. I believe that was back in 2002. All these hunters got displaced from the Flats, out to the Steese and Elliott Hwy's.

I cross the pipeline all the time, under and above it. However, I get a permit from Alyaska each summer. They already have my name in their computer, and it only takes me a couple of minutes to get a new one.

Tolovana use to be a prime place for some very good moose hunting as well as for bear. Use to stop in at the lodge in Livengood when miners were up and about and drink a pepsi and then dad and I headed up to Bakers creek, right below Manley. Roads were pretty rough and now ashalt- not surprising with the opening of the Haul road to the public. They say it is progress. Too good of a thing to stop I quess. Anyone figures out my camp is welcome to a cup of french roast, sailor boy and dried moose meat. cheers