Hi,

This thread is inspired by the thread "Into the wilds guns".I did not want to hijack that thread nor take away from it's emphasis.

I thought it might be interesting to take a deeper look into the various bush skills and tools that those who've spent time in the bush have found most helpful and useful.

Years ago,I spent a period in Alaska's bush and am quite opinionated about what has worked best for me.If this thread shows some interest,I will certainly put my two cents worth in but the thread is not about me.

Guns are not excluded from this since they are tools but I wanted to see a thread which digs deeper into bush life.

Ray,

I think I know what your talking about but may not be sure. If you're suggesting there's some kind unique talent or skill to surviving in the Bush then I'd have to disagree.

Having lived ten years in western Alaska, and having traveled over a little bit of the rest of the state, the word that comes to mind for me (as it applies to your topic,) is austere as in having no adornment or ornimentation. I think succesful living in Bush Alaska requires a personality that embraces an austere lifestyle.

We all know ladies that love to go shopping, men that love to express their masculinity thru their automobile, children that live for the sports they participate in, on and on. I think thats great, fine, super, and for them I wouldn't suggest they do anything else, but perhaps Bush Alaska would be a poor fit for them.

Really into Thai food? well maybe not here.

Can't live without Armorall on your truck tires? uhh, well,......

In Dillingham I couldn't get a decent haircut for any amount of money, so I switched to the self inflicted buzz cut. Problem solved.

There really are no other survival skiils needed out here. The internet, 800 numbers, and the Post Office fill all finge needs not covered by the village grocery store, and if like me you enjoy hunting and fishing, wether it's in the Bush or the suburbs of San Francisco you can harvest from the land what you like.

I'm really not trying to come off like some kind of wise acre, but I see little need or actual occurence of unique skills for living in the bush.

Scott,

I'm not sure what you're mis-reading in this.I actually didn't use the word talent.I did not even hint that everyone should want to do it.

There's nothing hidden between the lines.I asked about tools,techniques (methods) and yes,skills.

This does not exclude guns but rather goes beyond guns.When you say "you see little need or actual occurence of special skills for living in the bush",I disagree.We'll leave it at that.

To expand on my reason for starting this thread,the thread "in the wilds guns" had many responses but everything was limited to guns because of the framework of the thread's subject.

Nothing at all wrong with that but I noticed several responses where going deeper was lightly touched on and then backed away.My interpretation was that several wanted to discuss much more but were limited by the "500.00 for guns scenerio".

For those not interested,that's okay.

Again, not trying to be a wise acre in any way, didn't mean to offend.

......Ray ;;I think I know what you are talking about ......Some how Scott missed the boat ..I.m going to kick off one right off the bat that has seriously injured more people in the bussh seriously than most people can imagine ....Double bit axes ,., In the hands of the average joe they are possibly the most dangerous tool in the bush ....People always want to leave them stuck in logs and trees where they can be forgotten about and bumped into , fell upon ,. get brushed up against and fall on your foot ect...When you need to use your ax as a hammer or sledge they are more dangerous yet and not very useful ......Most people arn,t Hand Logger Jackson ,,or Jim Harrower for that matter and consequintly are much better served with a pair of single bit axes ....a 24 oz . Hudson Bay Preferably Snow and Nealy brand or Gransford Bruks.. [ some prefer a 2 1/4 lb Plum boys ax..And a 5-6 lb Rafting /Dayton /or Chopping ax ..Any more they need to be ordered usually from Baileys Mail Order Logging Supply , or Madsen,s shop & supply ,, ect ..,.An ax should be very sharp., and the best hand tools I have found to do the job are a medium fine 10 " bastard file and a medium diamond bench stone ..,.,Not too blunt an edge , but not too thin either ....,., Snow shoes are my next subject but I,ll wait on that ..

Ooookeeey Gumboot, explain to us all how bumping into a double bit axe in Bush Alaska is any different than bumping into one in Chicago?

Tourniquet, compress bandage, trip to the hospital, lottsa stitches, go home put your feet up.

Don't bother telling me about remote Bush blah blah, I know where you live, I've been to Togiak, Koliganek, Holy Cross, Kaktovik, etc,.. it all the same. Get hurt, get to the hospital. You get banged up in downtown Anchorage you can be 20-30 min to the first ambulance on scene.

Zimbabwe struck me as being a little iffier. Bush Alaska in the 21st century doesn't lack much in comparison to the "Real World".

gumboot,

The axe is the most important tool of all in cold wooded country.I'd rate it ahead of the knife.A saw and maul is important to feed a stove but when push comes to shove,nothing stands out like an axe.

Thirty years ago,I was not very sophisticated about such things and my axes were purchased from hardware stores.If I did it again,I'd carry at least one good felling axe made by Gransfor Bruk with a spare handle along with one hardware store type for rough work around rocks,etc.

That would be Gränsfors Bruk.


Link to the different blacksmiths ie axesmiths that have been making the axes at Gränsfors.

http://www.gransfors.com/htm_sve/yxboken/bok20.htm


Ie the Hultafors axe is according to me an even better axe.

http://www.hultafors.se/

Search Yxa and you will find.

click the klassik ie classic line and you will find that they make a hunters axe with rounded head, a great tool when skinning an animal...

BTW contact me if your interested in getting one.

Best regards Chris

i will second chris on this one, the swedes can make axes that will last you a life time.

i have a hultafors hunter model that is always on my backpack when im in the woods.

peter

ray,

I have to agree with Scott King. I lived in the 'bush" for 22 years and was incredibly disappointed in the level of "skills" the local people exibited. 100 mph snow machines, 40 mph boats, airplanes, microwave ovens, HUD, welfare, good commercial fishing years, gangster rap and video games have left a lot of bush folks with only a slightly better "skill" level than of an inner city dweller anywhere. So you don't need much special to live in the "Bush". You just need the ability to get along with a fewer of the niceties of living in an urban setting.

Mark

Mark,

I'm not trying to be disagreeable but I haven't been talking about the modern condition of native Alaskan's.I'm aware of what you're talking about but that has nothing to do with this subject.

This thread is not about me so I'll make this brief.....

I spent over three years in the bush without electricity,phone,running water,etc....I had no motors of any kind.I had no neighbors within many miles.

For someone to say that I didn't have or need any skills for this is not only an insult to me but every other true woodsman who's ever lived.

You are equating the lifestyle of a woodsman with that of a bum who panhandles during the day and then sleeps on a cardboard box in an alley at night.

What Scott is getting at is living in a Bush community doesn't take a lot of woodsmanship. Heck, there are piles of city folk teaching in remote villages that never see anything but the inside of their home and the inside of the school and the boardwalk in between. They live this way for 9 months and then they move back "home". I have a friend that call them, "one foot in the classroom and one on the jet".

I think what you are getting at Ray, is or are some of the old school ways of survival. How to tell what direction you are going by looking at the blown grass. What to do when you get your boots wet and you are no where near a place to warm up. How to look at a frozen river and tell if it's safe to travel on or not. Am I on the right track?

The best chracteristics are temperament, and attitude. You have to be a little laid back, and cautious.

What do you do when you run up on a sandbar and need to wait for a couple of days 'till someone runs across you? As has been pointed out, should I really cross this slough right here? What happens when the sled breaks down 30 miles from town and you are alone?

You have to be able to asses the situation and act accordingly, and being a high-strung city slicker won't get you anywhere, you are on your own.

Tools? Depends on what I am doing.

Kusko,

Perhaps I didn't express myself well enough.I never made any sort of reference to bush "community"life.Living in a community which happens to be surrounded by wilderness doesn't make one a woodsman anymore than living near the ocean makes one a fish.

If I had titled the thread "survival this or that",it would've become mostly about signaling methods,etc and finding one's way back to civilization.

I've known people who live in a bush community who are no more bush savy than someone living in New York city.The fact that someone goes on hunting trips doesn't mean much either.

I thought that the term "bush" was so universally understood that no explanation was needed.I'm not real computer savy but I'll attempt to change the name of the thread.

I tried to change the thread title but discovered that I don't know how.

I think this thread should titled as is. Those who have interest in the skills, tools, and techniques required to deal with the Alaskan bush would click on this thread.

The impetus for my originally posting Into the wilds guns was a conversation that I heard between two neophytes about what guns they thought they would need to "take on" the Alaskan bush. It seemed to me that their funds were somewhat limited and that is why I imposed a $500 limit, thinking that that was about all they could afford, if that even. I thought that, if I had only $500 to spend on firearms, what would I want to have in my cabin, or pickup, or bus (and I knew that I wouldn't want to carry a shotgun, a rifle, and a handgun all at the same time).

The thread got side-tracked a few times by well-intentioned people wanting to add that firearms alone will not make a person bush-wise but that's alright - they were well-intentioned.

Enough ramblin'. Here's what happened to me on a canoe trip down the John River a few years ago.

In short, it started to snow and the wind started up so I decided to break out a brand-new-never-opened pair of neoprene gloves to protect my hands while I paddled. Lo and behold, right out of the package, were two righthand gloves. That meant that my left hand would have to go ungloved in the cold and wet and so, foolishly, I decided that both hands should go ungloved. Eventually, over the course of three days, my hands cracked and got infected and I feared that they were getting frostbitten. I knew that I should go for medical help before the condition of my hands got worse. On a canoe trip on a remote river my hands on the paddle are my primary means of propulsion and, ultimately, my safety. My companions had slower canoes or rafts so I decided to paddle a day and a half ahead of them by myself. Everything turned out alright in the end and I really enjoyed my time paddling alone and sleeping under my canoe the last night on the river.

The moral? Check your gear before you go into the wilds - even if it is brand new and still in the package.



Namibiahunter

Of course you might have turned one inside-out and then you would have a right and a left --- the left may have looked a little funny but ...

Required ingredients for being "in the bush" would include being thoughful, not being prone to panic, some ingenuity, being tenacious, and two biggies ---- being able to keep your feet dry and without blisters and being able to start a fire under extreme conditions.

every time i go into a sportin good store i see some kind of survival kit , pack , stove ,goretex, saw hatchet gizmo or whatever, some of the stuff is great some usless but the only way to tell if it works for you is to test it under realistic conditions. take that little magnesium fire starter out in the back yard and see how long it takes to get a fire started .chop or saw something whatever then ask yourself if this would work in a driving rainstorm at nite. if not, dont be cheap go buy something else and try it. use and test your gear. and sometime do like ray m ask around

My take on this thread topic would be boy scout type skills:

Land navigation, way finding in the bush, telling direction, determining North etc and remaining hours of day light.

Basic mountaineering / hill walking - safely crossing rivers, 'contouring' steep hill slopes, scree slopes etc, walking on ice /snow.

Finding / determining potable water, edible plants, fishing, snaring / trapping for food.

Finding / making shelter, keeping warm etc.

Kayaking / boating safety.

Horse riding, pack animal loading /securing skills.

Off road, four wheel driving in bad conditions

First aid, CPR.

Hunting / field shooting skills, trajectory etc.


Alot of these skills were once taken for granted by people who lived in the countryside, even those no more than 30 - 50 miles from large towns. More recently, even Boy Scouts would have known many of these skills. I can just about remember when Boys Brigades in the UK had target shooting clubs AND these organisations were attached / belonged to the Chapel / Church!

How times, and attitudes change!

........Ya Ray ,,,I think Kusko got it right.,.,Apparantly a couple of the school teachers must not understand the difference in liveing in a village and liveing in the bush ......One nice thing about southeast ,. A hundred mile and hour snow go isn,t too useful ....Like some ak. hunting guides who live in Pheonix Az but talk lots about the Ak bush ...I know a couple in the Slana area who trap and turn the furs into some great products ...They live about 10 miles off the highway.,., They have cell phones , satilite tv and they have to 4 wlr or sno go to the highway where their vehicle is parked ..,.They utilize a very different skills set than the average teacher or govt emp . who lives in a village in western Alaska...........,/.,And along with the [ austere ] life style,. They need to pay attention in ways a village dweller does not ...

..........Namibia ,,, I would go with the other glove turned inside out thing ,, but even if you only had one glove why would you not wear it ..???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ,. This is the kind of thing that costs people body parts and OFTEN their lives .. McCandles ... who needed to make a series or correct choices he did not .in a timley manner ....Most of the dissapearences that occure in Alaska happen because of some wrong choices....probably an equal amount from a lack of attention at a criticle moment ......It,s like a guy who leaves out of Seward at night in about a 20 ft. fiberglass cabin boat with his wife and child,, it,s winter and so he has the cabin buttoned up pretty tight ,., About half way down the bay he falls asleep at the helm and his wife and child are asleep also ..They are travelling 22- 26 mph and in another few miles they hit the abrupt rocky shoreline at that speed ......They are reported over due to the local authorities the next day,,and we [USCG Cutter Cape Jellison } get under way .,.,along with coast guard auxillary and I think the troopers were there also [it was a while ago }we found them and the remains of the boat.,they were dead ...carbon monoxide poisioning ....,.,Lack of sufficent ventilation ,, wrong type of heater in the cabin .....,.,Could this have happened on the Great Lakes ? yes and no doubt has ?? Bush liveing skills arn,t solely relagated to Alaska or Canada ...In fact this thread would be even more interesting with the input from the Canadian forum .,.

Thank you all for telling me about turning the left glove inside out. It didn't occur to me to do that until further down the river and my fingers were already split. I did put on fleece gloves but took them off after they became wet and also because they made my hold on the paddle a bit slippery. If I would have lost my grip I would have been up shits creek without a paddle. My concern with my hands also gave me a valid excuse to go alone and ahead of my companions who were starting to grate on my nerves. Being alone on that river was the best part of the trip.

I should also say that 95% of my hunting and wilderness trips have been solitary experiences. Only when I am with one or two or my children in the wilds do I find more joy. Very seldom can I find someone, even close friends, who will venture days away from roads or telephone.

Between Africa trips I hope to sneak in a couple of weeks alone in Unit 26.

Namibiahunter

robthom,

You're right....Times and attitudes have changed.

I never really thought of it as a "boy scout" type thing but come to think of it,that's not far off the mark.I was never a boy scout.

gumboot,

I was at a loss to understand why "bush life" somehow evolved into "village life".Living in town is still living in town.To me,that's not bush.

I didn't mean to give the impression that only Alaskan's should post on the thread.Anyone,anywhere is more than welcome.No one in Alaska has anything over on a Canadian who's used to spending time far from civilization.

I've never actually lived in Canada and so I just gravitated towards putting something in the Alaskan forum.

namibiahunter,

I learned the hard way to carry spare footwear.

Most of my time in the bush has been solitary as well.I'm not anti-social it's just that I'm very comfortable when deep in the bush and most are not.That automatically creates a lack of compatability.

Ray:

As you said, spare footwear is very important. I took along a waterproof breathable 1200-gram insulated pair of hunting boots along with my ankle-fit hip boots for that river trip.

Here's me alone, coming ashore from the John so that I could go to the john - and, yes, I went in 100 yards or so away from the river and I properly buried it.



I also carried two of a lot of things when I am more than a day remote from civilization - 2 knives, 2 guns (a .338 and a .44 Mag), 2 compasses, 2 flashlights, 2 magnesium firestarters, 2 water bottles and a filtration system, 2 lighters (one water/windproof, and one throwaway), and one and a half times more food than I would normally consume, etc. On the river I wasn't too concerned about weight or bulk since I would have my inflatable to carry it but I also had a 5000 cu-in backpack in case I had to leave the river and go on foot.

Namibiahunter

namibiahunter,

I understood that you were talking about your hands in your earlier post but I mentioned footwear because your experience with your hands was very similar to my experience with my feet.

During my first winter off the Yukon,my stupidity caused me to be practically crippled for awhile.I got better.

Sounds like you go prepared for murphy's law.I usually carry spares of important things that are small and light but with the big things,I cross my fingers and try to be careful.

quote:

Originally posted by ray m:
gumboot,

I was at a loss to understand why "bush life" somehow evolved into "village life".Living in town is still living in town.To me,that's not bush.

Well Ray, several that posted here including myself live in whats commonly called "Bush Alaska" So when you title a thread, "Bush skills, tools &Techniques" in the Alaska Forum and say that you want to " .. take a deeper look into various bush skills and tools..." We that live or lived here think to ourselves, "Gee, Ray's talking about where I live,"

It would appear from the replies your post has gotten that you indeed are quite the rarity. Congradulations. I am under the impression that those that post here have never spent an extended period of time living as primitively as you have. Even Gumboot notes (If I am deciphering his post correctly,)that he spent some time working for the Coast Guard. As I understand it most Coast Guard bases have flush toilets, heating of some kind in the barracks, and even lights!

Ray, here is how things go usually as I understand it in "Bush Alaska". When away from the "village" for an over nighter or an extended period of time, most carry enough modern technological convieniences to make their stay relatively safe and comfortable. Sat phones, GPS's, and VHF radios are commonplace in most if not all remote camps or lodges so if (to use the previous example,) you fall on an axe, you call someone and in a matter of minutes or at most short hours, you are saved by Gumboot's Coast Guard, The Alaska State Troopers or the local Search and Rescue. It'd be great to be able to figger out what exact brand of axe to buy so you can fall on it, but like I said before, the austere lifestyle out here in the village doesn't always allow that.

It seems to be unusual at best in 21 century Bush Alaska for people to live for extended periods of time as you intimate you have.

.........Ya ,., there are lots of area spefic skills that I really need to learn , One that someone mentioned was knowing ,when you look at a frozen river ,if the ice will hold you ...I don,t ..,., But I can look accross the bay and know pretty much what the wx is up @ the head of the bay ,.,.Granted that is more maritime than bush ,, but we access the brush via skiff or other small boat alot here in southeast ....,.,,. one tip I learned a long time ago is to take cotton balls and saturate them in Vasoline or other petroleaum jelly .,to use as fire starter ....It is the only way I have been able to start a fire with a magneisum fire starter .,., and if you pack a bunch of them around in a lunch baggie then wrapped up in a sheet of tin foil it makes a good wind break to get a blaze going ...

A chainsaw is a handy survival tool. Gas and thick oil to start a fire, and the saw to cut wood.

Will even work on the shores of the Slope, but not too far inland.

anybody remember the story about an old buddy of mine, rocky k (now departed) plane dropped him at a remote cabin to do a little trappin but it never came back, so he build a boat out of sticks and visqueen and rowed 10 miles to bell is. now i dont know if this is bushcraft but i heard he ran out of booze and bell is. was the closest place to get some

ray:

I was thinking that so much could be covered in a topic such as you have in mind so I decided to make a new thread just on survival equipment and specifically what worked for me in tundra hunting conditions. It's under survival in the the tundra or something like that.

Namibiahunter

I've never met a serious Bush Rat, the kind of guy who's out on his own in the sticks, but it seems to me that the mass majority of the goombas I've met in bush communities are either extremely tight upstairs or extremely loose.

A friend of mine who teaches survival and primitive skills suggested that the number one skill a person heading into the bush (as Ray M defines it) for a long period is the ability to keep thier head together despite the INCREDIBLE SOLITUDE. McCandles is a great example because he thought he was "breaking free" but even so always returned to civilization and tried to ran for help when things got bad. Probably was a bit lonely too.

There are a lot of wackos like Gumboot's family who smothered that obviously didn't have things together but then again, there are certainly a lot like that in town. They die there too.

Roger on having an axe and the skill to use it as far as tools go. That and a reason to be there that keeps you active and I don't mean some aesthetic notion of the noble savage type crap. Jim Reardon's account of Frank Glaser brought to my attention how a lot of the old time trappers hated the bush. If a silver fox was worth $500 in 1915, I might give it a try but I'd also haul out as soon as I had my season's catch!

.........The example of the family who died in Resurrection Bay was a real ,it happened in 1981 ,example of not following the most important bush [ and probably Life ] skill . ..Paying attention ...,.,., .,.,Not being paranoid , per say , but being alert ....Always alert .and watching for the details .. .,.,I call guys who have spent too much time alone and its obvious they have ,,[bent ] ., Like a diver who comes up too fast and gets the bends .,., .,., It seems like they are forever marked by something they did ...So I totally agree , but feel it is the 2 nd greatest skill any one who wants to live in the bush can have ,, Knowing when to go have some human company ]]..,.,God said { it is not good for man to dwell alone } If you knew some of the guys I do ,you would really agree with that .... ................................................One the tools and techniques I really like the Gatco diamond sharpening system .. If a guy keeps up with his knives it sure makes things nicer ... ...

Well Ray you were looking for opinions and you got some. Too bad few could add anything intelligent. I've not seen too many threads that degenerated so quickly.

Bush living...I haven't done it long term. What I have done would make some city fellers wonder. Making it in the bush whether short or long term requires one to slow down and think about everything carefully. A wrong move and you'll pay big time. You have to have the mindset to face and fix anything that goes wrong. It might take a day to change a quad tire with minimal tools. Anything that needs to be fixed or made you have to do yourself and with the tools you've chosen. You need to learn to choose well. I'd be interested to see peoples list tools needed for an extended stay, it would speak volumes about that person's experience and abilities.



The chef

Ray,

Not sure how your thread got sidetracked, but I understood the intent of post.

As to what's needed to get by in the bush, I'd say the most important is state of mind. Some folks can survive in "impossible" conditions, others go crazy with every earthly need provided for them.

The basics needed are quality clothing appropriate for the conditions, a way to start a fire in the most adverse conditions, and a good knife and axe. Throw in some cordage and one can survive in most conditions.

When you read about the old timers, they were able to survive with tools that are considered crude by what is available today, and they did so by intelligently using what they had.

If anything I'd say with todays "wonder clothing" most folks have don't take the skills of starting a fire seriously. Even if your wearing jeans and cotton shirts, a fire will get you by, but you can still freeze to death with synthetics and goretex.

Paul,

Thanks for your post.

About fire....I always made it a point to keep tinder on hand and around the cabin,I'd keep plenty of dry kindling stored.I made it a point to learn how to start a fire without matches but that was more for confidence building than anything else.I always kept a good supply of kitchen matches well protected and in several bundles that were waterproofed.In addition,I kept sandpaper,also well protected to insure a good place to strike in all conditions.

About clothing....I lean towards wool.It's tough,doesn't melt when near a fire and insulates even when wet.

I like the butane jet lighters, I figure if I really need a fire, I really need a fire, and I'll make the task as easy as popular.

Someone privately emailed me with a question.Even though I did not want the thread to be "about me",I'm responding to any that may be curious.

My first home off the Yukon was a log A frame,The ends were closed with poles in a half-tepee fashion.I waterproofed the roof with plastic that had been carried for the purpose.Insulation was dirt which stayed very well since the roof pitch was not steep.Heat was provided by a tent stove and I was very comfortable.

To answer another question....

I seldom bothered with a frying pan on the trail.A couple of aluminum pots with bail handles and lids did everything needed.Bread is very easy to bake without utinsels.Make a fairly stiff dough of bannock and wind it around a green non-resinous limb and prop it near the fire.

.......How do you make Bannock ??? I,m real big on Sourdough ....But I don,t actually worry about some one starter ...If you put flour in some water and mix it up a bit ,cover it with a cloth and let it stand in a continuously warm place in about 3 days you will be able to make sourdough hot cakes ....Then all you need is some baking Soda and a bit of oil ..you can mix a little soda in a shot of water and fold it into the dough but have the pan ready with the oil hot ..cause the dough will rise fast and thats when you want to cook it .............I lived on sourdough hot cakes maple syrup and peanut butter for along time ..........a frying pan ,coffee pot and a water boiler were the most important pans for me ...