We hunted for Brown Bear in unit 16B September of 05. The outfitter said at the time we booked the hunt 9' bears were a real possibility. Two of us killed 7' bears on day 2 and day 6 of the 10 day hunt. We just found out our bears were 2 and 3 years old respectively. No indication before, during or after shooting these bears that they were this young. When questioned about the age during the skinning were told they didn't know by the assistant guides, Master guide flew out while we were skinnning out my bear. We were never asked whether we wanted to pass on the bears once spotted, in fact were encouraged to hurry up and take the bears before they got out of sight. Not withstanding that we each harvested a brown bear and got a very good deal ($5000/hunter for 2x1)going in the questions are:

Question:
1. Should the outfitter's registered assistant guides known that these bears were this small and advised us of such, giving us the opportunity to pass and wait for a bigger bear?

Choices:
Yes
No

Question:
2. If the answer to question #1 above is Yes answer this question, if it is no skip to question 3. Would it be your opinion we received fair value?

Choices:
Yes
No

Question:
3. Shoud the outfitter himself accompanied (been present) to assist with the sizing of the bear as opposed to sitting in camp and sending out what was apparently in experienced assistant guides?

Choices:
Yes
No

 

Value is getting what you paid for on a fully disclosed basis, not because of being relatively inexpensive.

Value depends on a lot more then just shooting game.

Having ones guide work his hardest to get you the best trophy that is possible is getting value even if that trophy is the biggest animal out there.

Having a willing and knowledgeable guide that knows the country and is enthused and pass's that on to the client is getting value.

A guide that is willing to hunt harder then the client is getting your values worth.

Not shooting the biggest or the best is not a sign of a bad hunt.

Some times even shooting the biggest or the best is not always a sign of a good or great hunt.

Feeling good about the hunt and the service and have have had fun are marks of a good hunt and value.

So many differant factors to just say weather you got your value or not in just a short story.

I don't think you can start with "not withstanding that we each harvested a brown bear and got a very good deal" and then ask questions about value... Just my humble, and all too often worthless, opinion.

Two hunters were 100% for 7' Brown Bear and only paid $5,000 each. You got your money's worth. Heck, black bear hunts are going for that kind of money...

The guides should've been able to "size" the bears for you before you shot...and maybe that's what a $10,000 assistant guide would've done.

You pulled the trigger. Can't complain you shot a baby now. I do feel however, that if you were inexperienced and could not tell the size of the bear, the guide should have told you it was a 7 footer or jeuvenile age and let you make the call.

No offense intended, but, just from some of the ways your questions are pointed, it's obvious you didn't do your homework on the package you bought.....

Joe

Not knowing other factors such as what how many bears were in that unit that year, conditions in the unit, weather for your hunt, your and your partners physical condition, and a host of other factors, it would be impossible to fairly evaluate the hunt. While it may seem like the guide just had you shoot at the first bears you saw, there was likely some knowledge the guide had regarding what was a respectable animal for the area.

In general I'd say both guys getting a bear for that price is a heck of a deal. Many folks spend double that or more and end up with a smaller bear, or no bear.

Thanks to everyone who responded.

Couple questions...
You mentioned "The Outfitter", and Assistant Guides. Asst. Guides work for Registered Guides not Outfitters. Did you have a Registered Guide?
I've hunted 16B since 1966. Know it well. In fact, I think I know where you killed one of the two bears you guys shot. Was it killed on Bachatna Creek?
You were extremely lucky to kill two Bears in that Unit. There is a lot of brush there. None of the well known, better Guides operate there. All the new guys jump over there because it's hard to hunt, so they can get access.
I'd be happy if I were you. For the money you paid, you got a deal. The Outfitter was kinda/sorta right. 9 foot bears are there, but they ain't behind every tree!
I wish you had contacted me before you went hunting. I might have been able to help. I'm not a Guide anymore, but I know most of the older ones, and some of the newer ones.

I won't fudge around on this one, think you got the bum's rush.

There is no difference between taking a 7' three year old brown bear in Alaska and taking a forked horn mule deer buck in Montana. Ok, there is one difference. Every hunter has seen at least one picture of a "trophy" mule deer and can tell for themselves the forkie they're looking thru the scope at ain't it. With a bear it just isn't so easy.

It is common among some unit 17 guides to miss represent bear size to their clients and tell them the bear they see "is a good one," and bang! the cub goes down. Hunting fees have already changed hands, cub is tagged, client is bum rushed out to the airport to get him out of town.

If you do return to Alaska to hunt bear, focus your research on skull size. Look in the record books and take notice of which areas are most frequently mentioned as having been the place where the trophy was taken. Every guide would love to tell you about the 12 footer out there, but they can't lie about skull size. The area biologists for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game or US Fish and Wildlife Service will tell you about the sizes of skulls taken in their area. Skull measurement is the only accurate method of trophy judgement. If this weren't true, why would the books only record this method?

In my case, it would seem that unit 17 just doesn't seem to be able to produce B&C trophy size bears. Darn big ones sure! but not the 28" measurement required by B&C. I have taken a 27 3/8"skull, and two weeks ago a feller tagged a 27 1/4". The biggest bear I know of in recent years to be taken around here was a 27 7/8".

I guess my point is CYA. Either guarantee yourself in your own mind that the guide you are hiring is trustworthy or make sure you can judge the trophy size yourself as you can in the case of sheep, moose or caribou.

Alaska brown bear hunting is trophy hunting. There is no excuse for a guide advising a client to shoot a 3 year old bear.

I don't want to come across as covering for the guides but whether they tell you to shoot or not the decision is yours. If it were me, I would have told them I'm not shooting and will wait to see if something bigger comes along, if they don't like it then thats to bad....afterall, it's my money.

It is the guide's responsibilety to judge the trophy quality of the bear and inform the client of what size the bear is at that point it is 100% your choice as the hunter.

There are many people who can't afford a $16,000.00 hunt in a trophy area. Those guy's would be happy to spend $50000.00 and insuring there investment by taking the first leagle bear they could.

It takes communication. If you didn't set forth and express to the guide what you were there for then ask yourself who's fault it was that your hunt turned out the way it did. If you told your guide that you wanted nothing smaller than 8&1/2 feet and your guide told you that the bear was that big you would have a reason to be upset.

I have to say that the topic starter did'nt leave enoughf information for this discussion.

BHW,

As others have said you didn't give us the whole story but two things are apparent. First as has been suggested you didn't do your homework. The first tip off for you should be the price. With any research you had to know that $5000 was an absolutely ridiculous price and absolutely quaranteed you a hunt fraught with problems. Aren't you some kind of an agent? You sir are one of the reasons people don't trust agents. Second if you were in reasonable physical condition so you could get out and hunt there would be no reason for the guide to encourage you to shoot a 3 year old bear unless he was pretty sure there was no chance of seeing another bigger bear. If that is true the outfitter should be avoided like the plague. If you could not physically do the hunt then he may have had you shoot the bear because he felt you would be lucky to even kill any bear. My guess is that as TJ said the area is a tough hunt, not very productive and the price reflects that.

Mark

Perhaps a seperate thread to go over the homework folks should do before going on a guided hunt is in order. Also to mention to get what you want, you have to realize the going rate for that, and conversley getting what you pay for might not getting what you want.

Lots of small bears are shot statewide, for a variety of reasons. #1 is likely the clients haven't learned for themselves how to tell what a big bear looks like. Then again there are folks that figured for what they paid for the hunt, they better shoot something. It would be interesting if the biologists who tag the bears were to compile the squared size of the hides during the year and publish them.

Paul H the avg bear shot in Wis was a 110lb it up to 150lb now.

Why because there are alot more small bears then big ones and most people see very few bears in the woods. So when on shows up it looks big and then find out it is a year or 2 old and is 110lbs. I did that with my first bear 27 years ago.

Having seen lots more bears dead and alive it is still hard to judge. I looked over my 490 lb bear for 10 min. before I pulled the trigger making sure.

Most people do not have the time or exspreince to do it for themselfs that where the guide comes in. You should be told thats a 7 foot bear 3 or 4 years old it's legal shoot it if you want or we can look for something bigger.

If you shoot you have no complaints if you pass it up you have no complaints.

Where the complaints come in is where the guide doesn't tell you or pressures you to shoot to ge the hunt over with. So he has a extra week off untill the next hunter comes in. See he had only to work week or days for 13000 or so instead of supplying a whole 2 weeks of food time ect. Money in is pocket if he finshies a hunt sooner then later.

A good guide works is hardest to get one the best hunt possible a poor guide is just looking at the dollars and is more worried about getting it over with.

First off congrats on your bear. A 7 foot brown bear is not a big brown bear, but for a grizz it would be a huge bear.

I think for $5000 you got your moneys worth. For the rest of it I would tend to agree with most of my fellow Alaskans.

You got to shoot a bear, maybe not the biggest bear on the planet, but you didn't pay full price for it either.

Kind of a melancholy ordeal all together. Best to forget the whole thing and book another hunt with someone else.

I've got a cabin in 16B on the Yentna river about 3 miles south of the mouth of the Skwentna. This area is loaded with bear, both blacks and brown. I've seen alot of big tracks on the slough banks and swamp dranages when I get away from the main rivers so I'm sure there are some mighty big bears around. Some might even have the scull size to make book but its a hard place to hunt and you could spend many a hunting season in those thick cottonwood bottoms before you ever got a shot at a 9' bear.

To go into that area and in less than a week come out with two grizzlys is, in my mind, quite an accomplishment in its self. Its not like hunting the Ak, peninsula where you can veiw bears from a vantage point through a spotting scope, judge their size, and plan a stalk.

Hunting Brown Bear in 16B limits your hunt in many ways when compared to the better areas like the Peninsula or Kodiak and the price of your hunt reflects that.

By the way, what time of year did you hunt and how were the hides?

We hunted September 1-8, 05. 4 hunters in camp three bears taken. One was really small. Hides weren't as full and thick as I had expected on either of the two bigger bears. Never saw the boo boo bear. Unfortunately, another bear came and took a huge chunk out of the right rear leg of my bear, so he couldn't haven't been rugged even if his hide was otherwise suitable for a rug. I persoanlly saw 10 bears in 8 days,no complaints on the number seen.

BHW

There is a slough bed that dries up when the rivers drop in the fall. It runs deep into a cottonwood thickett. For some reason the bears love to come out of the woods and walk around in it, but only in the evenings. Never saw a bear there in the mornings.

If I spend every evening in that slough bed for a week in late Sept. I would likely get a shot at a several good black bear and maybe a grizzly. The grizzlys just don't show themselves as often as the blacks do, but by the number of tracks I've seen there are as many grizzly as black bear in the area.

Damn shame about your hide. Now thats something that would really make me mad and something I would think was the guides responsiblity.

BTW, I was at my cabin with my son during the time of your hunt, chasing after a late run of silvers. We limited every day. Did you get a chance to do any fishing while you were there?
Northern pike and silver salmon fishing can be hot in early Sept.