quote:

Originally posted by fgulla:
Cold Zero

I dont understand your warning of staying away from the TBBC, i have never heard of anyone complaining about its performance. I have shot four deer with that bullet in two different cartridges and it performed perfectly. Both were factory loads, and one for the 6.5X55 was only moving @ 2,550 fps and expanded well on an average doe.

By the way, i would say that Federal's high energy 180gr TBBC for the 06 is the most powerful load(handloaded or factory) for an 06. I personally know a person who has chrono-graphed that round @ 2,900 fps out of a 22" barrel, thats 300 win mag territory.

i watched my friend on kodiak from across a valley with a 60x scope shoot a buck in the chest with the t.b.b.c., drop it and then it got up and ran downhill right past him and kept on going never to be recovered. before going to kodiak we hunted cloumbia blacktail deer in oregon and he shot a nice buck there too and the same thing happened. i did not see that one , but the guy is an excellent shot.

at my local s.c.i. chapter there are loads of guys that have shot african animals with the t.b.b.c. and the same thing happend to them. so much so it is like a joke now....

go with the nosler, if you want it dead now instead of later..

well placed 30 06 on grizzly is better than 375 not placed so well, this days peopel worry to much about what caliber to use, long time ago hunters had only one gun to go,nowdays every animal differnet caliber,i would worry most about shot placement than caliber

There ain't much a man can't fix with $700 Dollars and a 30/06.

@458 Win: 2700fps is a decent velocity number for a 30-06 that should be noted, there might be 300 Win.Mags around which do not achieve that.

While my 9,3x62 was not working prperly I have used 30-06/ 220 grain Hornady on large Turkish wildboars and (while being a strong supporter of the 9,3) I did not feel a great difference in killing power.

When I was younger I felt very comfortable with my 270 and 150g Noslers in grizzly country. Now I feel my 500 Jeffery with 570g A-Frames is just a little over gunned. Of course I can't run or climb nearly as well as 30 years ago ...



Chuck

I enjoy reading these threads. Most native Alaskans use a 30-30 for much of their bear hunting. They consider the 06 to be a big gun. Of course there are a few with 300 mags, but the 30-30 and 223 mini 14s are their go to game getters. However, I pack a 375 H&H or larger for bear.

It may come as a surprise to many big bore fanatics but according to sales figures as well as stats compiled by the AK F&G, the 30-06 is still the top choice for Alaskans, as it is in many African countries as well.

Sometimes I can't figure out what people are thinking.????

Not to cause a ruckus, but what does the sales figures of 3006 in Alaska have to do with killing grizzleys??? Most people just get what's on sale or what Uncle Festus says is great...philosophically speaking the '06 fills that bill admirably, doesn't kick the sh** out of you, most hunters can handle the recoil level and there is a plethura of reloading components and cheap ammo. Which bullet to use is another matter altogether.

The '06 will certainly "kill a bar", so will a 22 LR if you stick one in it's eye. That doesn't mean I will use a 22 on a Grizzly unless that's the last resort...and only because I want the miserable thing to die slowly after...hoping...it kills me quickly.

Bottom line...I like my skin intact and have a very high level of self preservation after being shot at way too many times in my life, I don't want to end up bear schat because I didn't have enough rifle...AND I don't believe I can EVER be overgunned when it comes to dangerous game, no matter what continent I'm hunting on.

I sure don't think I'm overgunned with my 50 cal Rigby iteration loaded with 600-750 gr slugs, or my 12GaFH loaded with 1000-1500 gr slugs, or any of the other 375 to 45 cal cannons sitting on the rack or ANY of the 50 cal and above shooters that are available and I plan to build sometime in the future. I want something that will knock the bastid down, skin him, and package the meat. If I wasn't such a puny wuss now I would carry a Barrett 50 BMG as a back-up in grizzly country...not withstanding all the "sage advice" for the perfect "grizzly rifle or bullet" so plentiful on the web.

Besides, whatever cannon I carry in griz country that will whack a brownie will certainly kill whatever I am actually hunting with certainty so why not go with the biggest I can find in my gun rack.

But Hey...it's you skin...use what you have, buy what you want and good luck. I don't think too many dangerous game types spend much time on the net or realize just how easily they can be dusted.

Good point FOOBAR and I'm sure everyone here agrees with you because no one has yet reccomended the use of a .22LR that I've read.

I saw that winchester advertising even the 270 loaded with XP3 bullets for bear hunting and XP3 is just a kind of tipped fail safe . they have nearly same construction. i run a test with different ammo in my ruger 77 in 3006 and when it came to penetration nothing was compared to fail safe .it beat them all with a great margin!!
i wish somebody could tell me about the experience with fs in hunting situation.
regards
yes

Foobar, Ammo and rifle sales, per se, don't have anything to do with killing lions and tigers and bears but only a fool will totally disregard local experience. As you correctly pointed out everyone is free to use whatever pea shooter or cannon they choose but the bottom line is that at sometime the shooter has to be able to correctly place a bullet and generations of Alaskan and African hunters and guides have proven beyond a shadow of doubt that when the shooter is up to the task a 30-06 is plenty adequate.

Come on Guys...lighten up...I was just pulling legs. Damn....people are WAY too touchy on this forum.

I didn't recommend a 22 LR did I???? I just said it could kill a griz and just about any animal when the bullet was placed in the right spot.

Nor did I disreguard "local experience"...although the fact that many use what they have, or what is cheap and available and happen to got away with it, is a large part of that "experience" I think.

And I guess I'm a fool, because I've seen, hear and read, for 50 some odd years, all those stories in Field and Stream and all the other gun rags, of the exploits of those using "adequate" shooters, plus watching 3 generations of hunters stumbling around trying to learn the art of stalking and shooting. I'm from Missouri, SHOW ME, talk doesn't mean squat. I don't believe very much of what I read and not all that much of what I see, knowing just how much our senses can be deceived.

When I was young and dumb I thought velocity was everything and Elmer K was a fuddy-duddy with his large KaliberKrap. I lived and breathed ballistics tables and high velocity...Now I use larger calibers with heavier bullets...the larger the game the bigger the cal and the heavier the bullet...and I can eat right up to the hole...no bloodshot meat from end to end...and the animals die much quicker.

Besides I DON'T much like mucking about chasing wounded animals...especially the kind that look at me as nothing more than a mid day snack...because someone wasn't up to the job.

Just because the '06 has been pumped up in the minds of the general public through Madison Ave advertising etc, still doesn't make it the best shooter to use for large dangerous game, I don't care HOW many animals are said to have sucumbed to it's magic. I wonder just how many of those animals died a slow and painful death or were figments of the news media.

Last count I had 14 30 cal rifls and barrels, including 3 '06's, 2 300 WM, and 5 308's so I DON"T disreguard the 30 cal's or the vaunted '06...I just don't think the '06 is the correct shooter for very large dangerous game...and my first retort was more tongue in cheek than anything else.

Besides...as I said...I want to kill whatever I shoot dead 4 times over and as fast as possible...I don't want my victims to suffer needless pain, nor stiffen up and have the meat stunk up with the physiological results of the death process. I don't like the taste of horns so I don't hunt heads, I leave them be to breed the next generation.

AS far as correct shot placement is concerned that should be a given, but in this day and age, YOU know and I know a large percentage of shooters fall way short of that expectation...YOU and I may be able to put the bullet anywhere we want and OUR rifles may have the accuracy to do it...but YOU and I both know that the average hunter nowdays with his average rifle is lucky to hit a bull in the butt at 100 yrds...or at least I know this for a fact...I used to accurize rifles, load ammo and teach people to shoot, for extra money and components.

I've always walked to a different drummer and I see through the foibles of the unwashed masses...sometimes I speak out, directly or obliquely as in my first post and I can always depend on it stirring the pot.

I once asked a Psych professor if people always reacted negatively to a jab in the ribs no matter how light it was...he came back with a nice little stab and I jumped all over it with both feet. To say I've always be a bit aggressive is putting it lightly. He just sat there with a big grin on his face while the class had me for lunch.

I got the point...

It is ridiculously easy to stir the pot even when the intention is to point out some obviously suspect thoughts/logic in a humorous way, especially when ingrained ideas are challenged and/or a suspected challenge was issued about cherished ideas.

Again...I didn't say the '06 wasn't an excellent hunting cartridge, just that I don't think or will ever think it is the most adequate cartridge for large dangerous game in than hands of most hunters no matter how many beasties have been supposedly killed by it. I would rather have a 338-06 or 35 Whelen or 375-06 with a 458 WM, Lott as backup, or preferable something in the 50 cal range as I said. And I now have or had all except the Lott at one time or another and I have a Lott pers se in my 45-120.

AS an aside...one very famous African hunter used the 6.5 x 54, 7x57 and 303 Brit for taking elephant...he thought they were adequate for that purpose...Would you consider those rifles to be "adequate" for the average hunter of today for elephant???

I often wondered everytime I read about W.D.M. Bell just how long it took for the elephants to die after being pranged by one of those cartridges????

We humans(other than politicians) will defend a position, right or wrong, to the death rather than change...history proves that correct time and time again...it's the same for web forums.

I won't belabor the point...everyone will do what they want for their own reasons regardless of the consequences...the news is full of that fact...it doesn't matter whether it is hunting, driving a car or MC/ flying or sitting in a bar sucking it up...or shining someone on.

As far a bullet construction is concerned, that is another bucket of worms...and everyone has or has "heard" a story.

That fact is another one of those "Cherished beliefs" arguments...never ending...and what's the point...if you killed what you shot the bullet was "successful"...if it ran off into the woods the bullet was "pi** poor"...nothing was hardly said about WHY the bullet "failed" or the ability of the shooter, where the bullet hit, and so forth...We humans have such little egos we have to blame everything EXCEPT ourselves.

By those of us who have said the .30 cals are adequate, I don't recall anyone saying that the "bigger" bore rifles won't work for those who have them and can shoot them.

My perception of this thread is not what is the best cartridge for a big bear but will this one (30-06) work.

There are a lot of guns and catridges that will work for a brown bear. I agree there is no need to choose an upper limit as far as power and diameter is concerned the queston is "what is the bottom end of the scale.

I can't talk for the other posters who have given the 30-06 a thumbs up on the brown bear hunt and I don't know what there minimum cal choice would be. For me I consider a 30-06 to be the minimum but it is in the loop. Thats just my personal value judgement. Thats just where I Bob Couey drew a mentel line in the sand and said this is it. The 30-06 works and anything smaller will be unreasonable.

FOOBAR I understand that "YOUR" minimum is probably somewhat larger. Thats fine I can respect that. I in fact would incourage you to bring the biggest gun you cared to carry and can shoot well if you were choosing too hunt with me.

Bear in mind what the original question was. The guy wanted to know if his rifle would work. He is from Sweden. Although I don't think there are a lot of issues in Sweden some European countrys have restrictions on the numbers and cals of hunting rifles. It may be an unreasonable effort for him to aquire a big bore rifle for one hunt. Before you condem the man to buying a new rifle because the one he has doesn't fulfill Your minimum I would ask how much Brown bear expireance you bring to us from Missouri.

I also agree that most hunters are redally capable of handeling large cal rifles. The funny thing in my expirance was that the biggest bear I ever guided for (10' 7") was taken by a hunter with a 30-06. I won't misslead you and leave it at that since that bear did require a couple of follow up shots from my .338. Whats relevent in this discussion was the hunter himself.

He hunted several times with me and he was exceptionally recoil shy. He hunted with three rifles all pre 64 M70s. One a .22 Hornet a .243 and the 30-06 was his heavy rifle. That man could not have hunted with a heaveier cal.

Bigger is better...when it comes to dogs, guns, trucks and other "things"...and a couple of follow-up shots is the key words.

There's no doubt in my mind WHAT an '06 will do or kill...I've use them to take game from squirrels to elk and a couple of whizzed off Charlet bulls...the '06 wouldn't have been my first choice but it was all I had at the time. I had close, clean, standing shots while I danced around the pickup and still had to reload once...that was never my point...my point was and still is "What is adequate" and "What is the "minimum"...everytime something along those lines comes up on the net, all the usual suspects get trotted out, and every one has stories and points and many times the apples get mixed up with the cumquats.

The fact that an 1100 lb plus aggressive, carnivorous, animal the size of a griz can cover 100M of rough ground in roughly 6 seconds should put the ramifications in perspective and give you a wake up call.

The average hunter would have trouble getting off a second aimed shot in that short length of time...not convinced...try it in a calm mannor, then have someone yelling in your ear, waving their arms or reaching around and pinching you tit...or holding onto a barking dog right beside you...A quietly grazing griz isn't much different than a quietly grazing elk, moose or angus...relatively easy kills and not much gun needed...it's only when things go sideways that it's too late to reconsider your actions. You do remember Murpheys law

It is certainly better for someone that can't handle the recoil of a "more than adequate" caliber, to use what they CAN handle...that problem opens up another whole can of worms...and points up many other problems and fallacies if you want to think about it.

If that's you business, you gotta dance with who you brung...but I wouldn't feel right about putting myself OR my hunting guide in the shi* by not being "overgunned" as far as I could get, and that means doing what is required to get there.

That was expected and understood way back when I was being taught the hunting game. If you didn't, couldn't, or wouldn't do what was expected, no one invited you on ANY hunt...you weren't trusted with a deadly weapon in you hand...bottom line.

I didn't start out with the ability to handle the recoil of a large caliber shooter...no one does...you have to work at it and up to it...and no one will convince me a '06 is a grizzly gun...ever...when your in the shi* or not. You need to work that out way before stink happens.

I had a lot of friends that worked on the Alaska pipeline...they ALL carried 458 WM's to a man...minimum...in their trucks...a couple had theirs rechambered to the 450 Watts Magnum or Barnes Supreme which are very similar to the 458 Lott. And most also had 12 ga shotguns loaded with slug and buck rounds.

One had the barrel bobbed off to 16 1/2" after a brownie tried to climb into the cab with him when he was asleep and the longer barrel got hung up in the twizzle sticks. AND...he practiced with it...his wife said he was a changed man after that hoohaa, saw the light, got religion and quit drinking. I thought that was a bit extreme...the stopping drinking anyway.

No matter what anyone thinks or which ever side of the argument you happen to be on, it really doesn't matter...all those people that think one shooter is the cats meow, whether or not they ever read anything on forums...will defend their choice to the bitter end and will find arguments to "prove" it and won't listen a whit to anyone else...bottom line.

I'm getting way too old for this discussion stuff...my 50 year old kid and grandkids live in the city and I can't even convince them it would do them well to learn how to shoot and hunt, much less to buy a gun for self protection. They think I'm worse than a cannibal for eating Bambi...not to mention Thumper.

Times do change and not necessarily for the better.

Originally posted by FOOBAR

quote:

I had a lot of friends that worked on the Alaska pipeline...they ALL carried 458 WM's to a man...minimum...in their trucks...a couple had theirs rechambered to the 450 Watts Magnum or Barnes Supreme which are very similar to the 458 Lott. And most also had 12 ga shotguns loaded with slug and buck rounds

using 3006 is not the same thing as being recoil shy. it is just so that guns in 375 H&H are made much heavier and more cumbersom.
i would love to try ruger's alaskan model in 375 ruger which is very handy and with short pipe .
i own both 3006 and 375 H&H. my 06 is a ruger 77 which is light and delight to carry and shoot and my 375 is an old brno 602 with 25 + inch pipe and more than a kilo or 2 heavier than my ruger. while wandering a dozen of miles with a gun on your shoulder and a backpack o your back every ounce of weight is matter and when it comes to shouldering and shooting fast every inch matters too.
these are things to be concidered during a hunting trip. by the way the alaskan game department is recommanding just 3006 or simillar calibers for bears and not magnum calibers i hope they know what are they saying even many phs in africa do not recommand heavy magnum calibers for the big 5 and saying an ordinary 375 H&H is enough gun for the most of the cases!!!
regards
yes

quote:

I had a lot of friends that worked on the Alaska pipeline...they ALL carried 458 WM's to a man...minimum...in their trucks...a couple had theirs rechambered to the 450 Watts Magnum or Barnes Supreme which are very similar to the 458 Lott. And most also had 12 ga shotguns loaded with slug and buck rounds.

Foobar, there's a certain kind of Alaskan, generally a new arrival, who sees a bear or man eating wolf behind every bush. That's not reality.

I live in the suburbs and have had 3 brown bear between the front door and driveway last summer, and black bear on the back porch, with just a glass door separating him from my living room. Use common sense and it's no big deal. When I was younger I used to run 6-10 miles a day on trails in summer (unarmed)and would see fresh brown bear tracks almost every day. Again, common sense, avoiding heavy cover, spawning streams, listening, etc, will keep you safer than any rifle.

I recently saw two young ladies out for a hike near my house being escorted by a grim looking fellow 10 steps in front and another a few paces in back, one with a rifle and the other with a 12 gauge pump, both with the butts shouldered and ready for action. Now granted that may have been a show for the girl's sake, but looked absurd to anyone not suffering from bearanoia. I'm sure they'll have a great tale to tell their friends about how thick the bears were and how they fought their way through. I usually carry at least a pistol these days and always when near salmon streams, but have spent days on end more than a day from the road unarmed doing things where the weight of a gun wasn't justified and felt perfectly safe. The few times in the bush I've run into people from the lower 48 on such occasions they've universally expressed shock that I wasn't afraid of being eaten by the wolves or bears. I've (like most folks who spend much time fishing or camping in AK) have had brown and black bears walk through my camp numerous times without incident. Be smart, be ready, and realize bears aren't bullet proof terminator-like killing machines on a mission to eat you.

Well said Omni_Bob, well said.

Foobar, I serious doubt that many, if any, pipeline workers can be considered bear experts. In fact, if all of them carried 458's as a minimum like you say I would seriously doubt that any of them had much of any bear experience. That sounds like they are simply afraid of bears and carry the biggest calibers they can in the hope that using a large caliber will compensate for their lack of real experience.

On the other hand hundreds, if not thousands, of Alaskan guides who do have experience, have relied on the 30-06 as their primary caliber for over a century.

As usual I think this boils down to , use the biggest gun you can handle properly. Will an 06 kill bears, of coarse. As for being unarmed in bear country, thats fine too. I live in B.C. and while there aren't bears behind every tree, I always take some sort of firearm along on camping or whatever trips I make in the bush. If the poster is from another country he's going to have a guide with .... probably something larger than an 06 so it's all good.

yes - just pay attention to the replies from 458. he makes his living guiding and killing bears in alaska.

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
hi
is 3006 180 gr fail-safe enough for hunting grizzly?
regards
yazid

Nope , bullets will bounce right off , garrenteed . Nooo DDOUBT about it .!!!!!!!!


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