quote:

Originally posted by stuntpilot2:
Will try to extract all the personality from previous posts and stick to the limited facts I know......

Last year's big brown surprised us by standing up in the shoulder high brush inside of 20 yards. And, the bear was even closer to my Aleut guide who was a step in front. There is something surreal about the visual of him pointing his 416 up at a ~20 degree angle at the bear hoping I'd shoot quick and get it right. But the thing that really got my heart beating was the urgency in his voice as he yelled "Break his neck! Break his neck!". Until then, I'd never heard him utter anything other than flat inflection in the two weeks we'd spent hunting together.

In the then and there, I don't think it would have mattered if I'd hit him in the lungs with my 460 Weatherby. With those pinned back ears, the beady eyed stare....his body language had "this is going to get physical" written all over it. Gumboot was right, it was CNS or cage match time.....

It wasn't "hard" to hit a tree trunk sized neck that close. But I count myself relieved that I was carrying a 375 H&H, and in the moment would have happily opted for the 460. If only for another second of "roll around on the ground" after the shot had I not connected with spine and carotid. Come to think of it, if an RPG was an option, I would have been happily pulling the trigger on it!

Placement is King. Bullet quality Queen. But, punch can be a nice ace in the hole.

........


Stunt Pilot ,,,,I am very very happy for you .....that is the kind of hunt and kill I hope all bear hunters get to experience ..

Gumboot,
You can talk more and say less than anyone on this board...ONe thing I know and that is 458 is one of the most respected brown bear guides in Alaska, and has set worlds records with his bear year in and year out, and if you don't know who he is then you don't know much about what you speak!

As to the 30-06, I have never shot a brown bear with one but I have shot Cape Buffalo with one and it worked there, and most African PHs shot their first elephant or two with this miserable caliber, and they are all still around to tell about it...Believe it or not bullet placement and proper bullet construction make the 06 and other lesser calibers capable of killing some of the worlds most dangerous game..

Anyone that has hunted a great deal will agree that these light calibers can get the job done under adverse circumstances when used properly but that they are not necessairly the best choice, they are the minimum choice...

Sometimes the best way to get out of the hole your in is to quit digging!

Opinions vary, and this is an age old arguement, but you will take note that those with the most hunting experience vote with .458 and its been that way for years...

If one can handle the big bores then fine, its a good way to go, 458 knows that and so does everyone else.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Anyone who has ever been bear hunting with me knows that I prefer to be 50 yards or closer before shooting. My job is not to get close enough for the client to hit the bear but to get them close enough they can't miss. I do this not because I wish to shoot their bear but so that I will NOT have to shoot their bear. That is also why I recommend they bring a rifle and caliber that they can shoot well.

gumboot, Who ever you are - how do you know that the 30-06 doesn't work well on close bears?
how many up close bears have you used it on? where were they hit? what bullets were you using? and just how did it fail ?

.............................I wouldn,t think of using one ....The only bear I ever shot with a 30 cal was a black bear @ about 30 feet , the bear was a about a 6 ft boar and I finished it off with a 44 but that was stupid on my part ....my shot spined him but he was trying to get up......There have been too many other bears that I know of who were shot by people that I know to prove to me that for most bear hunting it is too small a caliber...................Both Wayne Short ,author of Chechakos and This Raw Land .....And Master guide Ben Forbes had brown bear pursue them into salt water after being shot numerous times with the 06..........friends of mine on Prince of Wales is. have shot black bears with the 06 and 300 and most of them were multi shot kills that usually required reloading the magizine ....this will be my 29th year of hunting in Alaska , and there have been failure to stop a bear reports on the 30 calibers far too numerous to recall ......................Ya know I do apologize for being , , cocky ., but you have described in magazine articles how you back up clients by watching the animal as the client shoots and thereby you are more able to tell if the animal is mortally hit , if not you are set to deliver a mortal shot on a wounded bear ............Thats what you said ,.,. I think its a great way to do things and obviously it has worked well for you ............But that being the case, it can be said that it is your plan to shoot the bear if you feel you need to ........................................And whats the big deal if I don,t like the 06 .......I almost bet that for every client you can show that couldn,t shoot a 375or larger rifle at game well,,,,,I can find a true example of bears black,white and brown that the killing of was something of a fiasco due in large part to useing a 30 caliber of similar rifle ...........Since most people can,t hit a paper plate at 50 yards off hand with their 30 cal ect rifles ,I fail to see your argument that most people can,t shoot a large rifle well ,,, they can,t shoot hardly any rifle well ..............Most inexperienced bear hunters that I know seem to see and shoot at [ the bear , or the chest of the bear ]..not exactly one spot on of thru the bear ......doesn,t have much to do with the caliber , but a fringe hit with a small caliber has less an imediate affect than a large one ...............Perhaps I,m the only one on this forum who has had buck fever ,. but when I missed it wasn,t the fault of haveing too large a rifle ,., It was just not putting the shot together correctly ...........I would say it was about equal . the people who gain confidence from a large caliber rifle and so are able to shoot a bear well ...as opposed to the people who are afraid of the caliber and thereby shoot poorly .........But what about all the people who can,t shoot a 300 , 06 , 270 well .........................Lack of practice and ability ,,is as much a result of lack of interest, effort , or time spent , than it is caliber ......................

To answer the question posed as the topic for this thread, my answer is no.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
Gumboot,

Your adversarial tone in addition to your nearly illegible writing, anonymous signature, and un proven skill, experience and technique all add up to giving you zero credibility.

For all anyone on AR knows, you are just another internet hero.

.....................Scott , do you have any pics posted here that anyone who wants to can view and enjoy ,,,, ,, I do ... whether good or bad pics or whether anyone else likes them.......I have posted pics to back up alot of what I have said .........I still think alot of you arn,t gettin the public forum thing ..........................If you don,t like my posts , so ,., I,m sorry .,., Don,t read them ............................Or try coming up with some informative ,,,,educational. and fun topics and threads ..............that are expertly written ..............Actually as far as I,m concerned they don,t have to be perfectly written...............It would be nice if you were enthused about your topic tho ............

Yes there are some pictures of mine posted here at one time or another. There have been some in the past of moose and last year a trip to Zimbabwe. I think that all my pictures prove is that a man claiming to be Scott King posed himself near several dead animals or near some possibly tranquilized ones. Yes those picture could be legitimate, but this is the internet.

I don't believe I've ever passed myself on as much of an expert on anything, (I'm certainly not,) and if I have I'd like to see it in print and I will retract and apologize.

I think you're missing the point and I wouldn't know how else to put it to you other than to repeat that your adversarial tone in addition to your nearly illegible writing, anonymous signature and unproven skill, experience and technique all add up to giving you zero credibility. Yes I have seen your pictures posted of Sitka blacktail lying next to a man holding a rifle with big holes in the deer. The mortality of the deer in the pictures you posted are un deniable. IMHO the rest of your claims regarding the rifle and person pictured, about mondo magnums for bears and what ever else I've barely been able to cypher are just that, claims.

As to your assertion that if I don't like what you're posting I just shouldn't read it, I would suggest you could take your own advise regarding any of the amatuer opinions I might share on this board.

I think Mr. Shoemaker summed it up when he said hunters should use as much gun as they can handle. Would I use an 06 for Brownies, no chance but I have big guns and can shoot them.

quote:

Originally posted by Yale:
Dear Gumboot:

I am a lawyer, although no longer practicing in Pennsylvania. At one point, not too long ago, I was an expert in defamation.

It's up to Mr. Shoemaker now.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Great, last thing we need on AR is a ex-lawyer running around spouting shit. Get a life. This is a hunting/shooting forum.

quote:

Originally posted by Moose-Hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Yale:
Dear Gumboot:

I am a lawyer, although no longer practicing in Pennsylvania. At one point, not too long ago, I was an expert in defamation.

It's up to Mr. Shoemaker now.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Great, last thing we need on AR is a ex-lawyer running around spouting shit. Get a life. This is a hunting/shooting forum.

+1r
Whats next irrelevant advice from a self-proclaimed governor?

I've heard of ambulance chasers, and other opportunistic lawyers, but this is a first I've noticed a Gumboot Chaser.

I think maybe Gumboot is catch and release at best, but I don't think I would want to get him cornered. Probably not a good time spent vs reward ratio. It's a lot more fun to argue with him and get him going over the top.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by MTM:
I think Mr. Shoemaker summed it up when he said hunters should use as much gun as they can handle. Would I use an 06 for Brownies, no chance but I have big guns and can shoot them.

...............................I agree . .,

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I've heard of ambulance chasers, and other opportunistic lawyers, but this is a first I've noticed a Gumboot Chaser.

I think maybe Gumboot is catch and release at best, but I don't think I would want to get him cornered. Probably not a good time spent vs reward ratio. It's a lot more fun to argue with him and get him going over the top.

KB

................................

A few years back, Mr. Craig Boddington wrote an article about Hunting Brown Bear. He interviewed several guides for his article. the topic was the number if shots required by clients, per. Bear before the Bear stopped arguing with the hunters, laid down and died. The poll included the taking of 100+ Bears. The results were very surprising. (Gumboot, you may want to hear this.) The findings were that from the .270 up thru the .460 Weatherby, the larger the caliber, the more shots on average were fired to stop the Bears. This was very consistant, without exception! The largest caliber took the clients about 5-6 shots, with the number declining as caliber got smaller, and recoiled less. The ONLY one shot, bang flop kill was with the .270! I've kept up with Mr. Shoemakers (.458 Win's) career for a LONG time, and though I've never met the man, I do know, he knows of what he speaks! I shoot many different calibers, and will say that it is much easier for most average hunters to place their shots more precisely with smaller calibers. If you Mr. Gumboot are not aware of this fact, you have not enough experience. I strongly believe that most problems in Africa with dangerous game results from the cannons recommended that the clients can not use well. In closing, two things. . . . Mr. Shoemaker. . . I hope I am fortunate enough to someday afford one of your guided Bear hunts. For me, it would be a dream come true. AND I will be using either my .338-06 AI, or more likely my .300 WM that I can drive tacs with at very long range. Secondly, Gumboot, you have proved yourself a true idiot!

With patience I have read most of the posts in this thread. It has been very informative. Obviously there are about as many opinions on this subject as there are posters.

But if someone gets their kicks shooting brown bears, grizzlies, cape buffalos, deers, antelopes, squirrels or whatever with a .500 caliber, then knock yourself out. I mean... who cares?

By the same token should there be someone who would rather use a .270 Win, knock yourself out. It's all good. We're all in this world to have some fun and adventure.

The personal insults should really be surpressed.

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
A few years back, Mr. Craig Boddington wrote an article about Hunting Brown Bear. He interviewed several guides for his article. the topic was the number if shots required by clients, per. Bear before the Bear stopped arguing with the hunters, laid down and died. The poll included the taking of 100+ Bears. The results were very surprising. (Gumboot, you may want to hear this.) The findings were that from the .270 up thru the .460 Weatherby, the larger the caliber, the more shots on average were fired to stop the Bears. This was very consistant, without exception! The largest caliber took the clients about 5-6 shots, with the number declining as caliber got smaller, and recoiled less. The ONLY one shot, bang flop kill was with the .270! I've kept up with Mr. Shoemakers (.458 Win's) career for a LONG time, and though I've never met the man, I do know, he knows of what he speaks! I shoot many different calibers, and will say that it is much easier for most average hunters to place their shots more precisely with smaller calibers. If you Mr. Gumboot are not aware of this fact, you have not enough experience. I strongly believe that most problems in Africa with dangerous game results from the cannons recommended that the clients can not use well. In closing, two things. . . . Mr. Shoemaker. . . I hope I am fortunate enough to someday afford one of your guided Bear hunts. For me, it would be a dream come true. AND I will be using either my .338-06 AI, or more likely my .300 WM that I can drive tacs with at very long range. Secondly, Gumboot, you have proved yourself a true idiot!

....Well by golly You have the answer right there .......With all the calibers you mentioned we ought to be able to put some factual numbers to these rounds .............Lets say that the 270 takes one shot and the 460 takes ,whatdya say 5 or 6 ,., So with the data base of 100 bears , its garrenteed the 270 will be , what a quarter shot better than the 06 but probably 1 or 2 shots better than the 338 and 358 ..........So according to this , given the caliber parameters the 375 H&H must take 3 shots to kill a bear but the 270 only takes one shot ............. ................

But now things may get a little murky here so just hang on a sec.......In this 100 bear data base , were there any bear that were shot with a 270 or such and took off like a scalded ass ape for the nearest patch of brush but were dumped by the guide with his trusty bear rifle ,. and then which caliber was the kill recorded to , the clients deer rifle or the guides bear rifle ??? Ya see how that would scew the statistic .........


I know D I,m supposed to be just an idiot , but I know of 4 or 5 brown bear killed by people useing the 270 , and other calibers ,.,! was a first shot incapication as it charged a guy I know that was deer hunting he hit it in the neck,spine as it was running donw a small draw that he was on the other side of.....He shot it again twice I think to put it out of its misery ...The rest were 4-9 shots .......The 1 shot stop was admitted to be a very lucky shot .........................


to make a data base reliably as to what works best , You would need a certain # of test cases ,ie bears with different ranges taken into account ....And the # would have to be the same ......Say every caliber gets 100 bears .,. Now since a 22 in the perfect spot , ie brain will kill a bear that and the spine must be rulled out as available targets .,., Also since this is Alaskan Brown bear we are talking about the test data would have to include all the places where they are encountered , from Hyder to Barrow with the majority taken at the densest population areas .......................And really to keep the data as correct as possible it would need to be one person per caliber If Mr Shoemaker wants the 30/06 then I will vollenteer to use the 458 Win.Mag. Ya,ll can argue over all the other calibers you want .........Oh , Ya , A bullet and velocity would have to be settled on as the standard for that caliber to be used thru out the test ..........My pick would probly end up being a 350 gr TSX@ 2500 fps ....

So say we ended up with 10 calibers .,., that would give us a data base of 1000 bear ....By makeing it necessary to kill bears from say 10 feet - 300 yards or so and CNS shots are disallowed .....That would give a pretty clear picture of what the calibers would do ....

Dear Moose Hunter and Mr. Beutler:

If you read this and the companion thread on brown bear calibers, you will realize why I said what I said.

Actually, I agree with your premise, Moose Hunter, in that this is a shooting and hunting forum, and defamation should not exist on it.

Go back and read all of what Mr. Shoemaker, Gumboot and I wrote, and think a little bit more about what I said.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Folks from outside Alaska must realize that , With the exception of a very few game units where typically it is difficult to kill bears, Alaskan law allows individuals the opportunity to kill only one grizzly or brown bear once every four years and very few hunters manage to do that - except maybe for loggers and construction workers who must kill them on a daily basis.
Even guides who target the bears usually only manage to personally be on three or four bear hunts each year. Still, a guide will see more bears killed in three or four years than even the most avid hunter will in a lifetime.

You may be surprised, or maybe not, that there are a few people here in Alaska, and maybe elsewhere, who believe brown bears have no purpose in sharing this planet with humans. It's sort of like the wolf haters. But anyway, these guys have no problem gut shooting every brown bear they can shoot, without someone seeing them. So they can avoid problems with the law, they shoot them in the gut so the bear will run off to die, and thus the carcas will probably be eaten by another bear, and there is less chance of the shooter being caught.

I have never witnessed, nor participated in such an incident, but I know some people like that, and I know it happens, and have heard many stories of the old timers shooting them that way from their fishing boats, as the bear was walking the beach. Of course they never followed up on the bear, since they only wanted to kill it.

There are others who practice on bears, by shooting one if the encounter is right -- that is no witnesses, or only in the company of someone totally trusted to be quiet. These bears too are just left to rot.

Anyway, that's the way it is folks, even in this supposedly enlightened day, there are plenty of folks like that around. I assure you however, that I am not among them or share that view.

KB

Gumboot, My first instinct is to say. . . . . WHAT?
Look, I understand what you are saying, but I think the point being made is this. I've hunted for about 45 years, and I shoot, oh, maybe 20,000 to 30,000 rounds a year give or take. ( practice, testing competition, etc. I've taken maybe 450 game animals during my lifetime, and feel pretty confident that even with the largest caliber, I could probably place the bullet pretty well. So for YOU or I, bigger may well stop a Bear faster. BUT, guides, like Mr. Shoemaker, have to take out clients that listen to guys like you and myself that CAN shoot well on these forums, and we tell them they need a .338 or bigger for Bear if they are to be successful. After all, you and I do know, that a really big bullet in the right place may drop something big, a little faster then a smaller bullet in the right place. THEN since they don't shoot all that much during the year, they flinch and make a bad shot. NOW the guide HAS to kill the Bear for the client. I take hunters out on occasion and find that about 1 in 50 can handle anything much bigger than an .06. And most can't shoot THEM well. The data Mr. Boddington compiled, was an average. And that average is what guides have to put up with. Now Gumboot. . . . If I come up there and you and I go Bear hunting together,( Hell, I'll bring the beer), then, let's take some big guns. Cause, you and I can shoot them very well, right? But I'll bet you if I hand my .375 or .458 to someone with lot's of money for a guided hunt, and very little shooting experience; after the first shot, he couldn't hit much of anything important. And, ON AVERAGE, the bigger gun I hand him, the less important his shots become. Smart guides understand this, and I believe Mr. Shoemaker is one smart guide! Fair enough?

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
You may be surprised, or maybe not, that there are a few people here in Alaska, and maybe elsewhere, who believe brown bears have no purpose in sharing this planet with humans. It's sort of like the wolf haters. But anyway, these guys have no problem gut shooting every brown bear they can shoot, without someone seeing them. So they can avoid problems with the law, they shoot them in the gut so the bear will run off to die, and thus the carcas will probably be eaten by another bear, and there is less chance of the shooter being caught.

I have never witnessed, nor participated in such an incident, but I know some people like that, and I know it happens, and have heard many stories of the old timers shooting them that way from their fishing boats, as the bear was walking the beach. Of course they never followed up on the bear, since they only wanted to kill it.

There are others who practice on bears, by shooting one if the encounter is right -- that is no witnesses, or only in the company of someone totally trusted to be quiet. These bears too are just left to rot.

Anyway, that's the way it is folks, even in this supposedly enlightened day, there are plenty of folks like that around. I assure you however, that I am not among them or share that view.

KB

I hope they are caught and have their balls cut off.

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
Gumboot, My first instinct is to say. . . . . WHAT?
Look, I understand what you are saying, but I think the point being made is this. I've hunted for about 45 years, and I shoot, oh, maybe 20,000 to 30,000 rounds a year give or take. ( practice, testing competition, etc. I've taken maybe 450 game animals during my lifetime, and feel pretty confident that even with the largest caliber, I could probably place the bullet pretty well. So for YOU or I, bigger may well stop a Bear faster. BUT, guides, like Mr. Shoemaker, have to take out clients that listen to guys like you and myself that CAN shoot well on these forums, and we tell them they need a .338 or bigger for Bear if they are to be successful. After all, you and I do know, that a really big bullet in the right place may drop something big, a little faster then a smaller bullet in the right place. THEN since they don't shoot all that much during the year, they flinch and make a bad shot. NOW the guide HAS to kill the Bear for the client. I take hunters out on occasion and find that about 1 in 50 can handle anything much bigger than an .06. And most can't shoot THEM well. The data Mr. Boddington compiled, was an average. And that average is what guides have to put up with. Now Gumboot. . . . If I come up there and you and I go Bear hunting together,( Hell, I'll bring the beer), then, let's take some big guns. Cause, you and I can shoot them very well, right? But I'll bet you if I hand my .375 or .458 to someone with lot's of money for a guided hunt, and very little shooting experience; after the first shot, he couldn't hit much of anything important. And, ON AVERAGE, the bigger gun I hand him, the less important his shots become. Smart guides understand this, and I believe Mr. Shoemaker is one smart guide! Fair enough?

DWright
Thats pretty much what I said earlier on in the thread. I think you might have put it a little better tho.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kabluewy:
You may be surprised, or maybe not, that there are a few people here in Alaska, and maybe elsewhere, who believe brown bears have no purpose in sharing this planet with humans. It's sort of like the wolf haters. But anyway, these guys have no problem gut shooting every brown bear they can shoot, without someone seeing them. So they can avoid problems with the law, they shoot them in the gut so the bear will run off to die, and thus the carcas will probably be eaten by another bear, and there is less chance of the shooter being caught.

I have never witnessed, nor participated in such an incident, but I know some people like that, and I know it happens, and have heard many stories of the old timers shooting them that way from their fishing boats, as the bear was walking the beach. Of course they never followed up on the bear, since they only wanted to kill it.

There are others who practice on bears, by shooting one if the encounter is right -- that is no witnesses, or only in the company of someone totally trusted to be quiet. These bears too are just left to rot.

Anyway, that's the way it is folks, even in this supposedly enlightened day, there are plenty of folks like that around. I assure you however, that I am not among them or share that view.

KB

"log er clean and pave er flat , and pump er dry"

"If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined ...."

Sounds like the type...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 22WRF:

I hope they are caught and have their balls cut off.[/QUOTE

Well it isn't as simple as that. Like Kabluewy said, I certainly haven't done this either nor do I have any interest, but some living here have had dogs killed, salmon fishing equipment destroyed, big game stolen, cabins and or houses destroyed, people attacked and killed, on and on. Losses from bears just being bears, doing nothing wrong can be in the tens of thousands. Imagine having your blood smeared fabric covered airplane torn limb from limb by a brownie.

I gotta tell you, if my prized bird dog was killed by a bear just doing what bears are supposed to do I think I'd hold at least a little grudge.

Scott's right. It isn't a simple thing. It's easy to get a grudge or a bad attitude towards a brown bear. They are sometimes very nasty with the trouble they make. The wife of a friend got mauled pretty badly a few years ago, while she was picking berries. She came very close to passing on, and suffered a long time from infections, skin grafts, and surgery. She's mostly ok now, but still has nightmares. Anyway, that changed my friend's whole attitude toward bears. He used to not worry about them much, and sometimes approached them too close for my comfort, and he got away with it for over 30 years. It's different now for him. He would pop one in a minute, if it showed any sign of mischief. It certainly caused my attitude toward caution to change, but I still wouldn't just shoot first and sort it out later. Hopefully, I don't have an incident that will cause me to reconsider.

But, I do carry a big enough gun just in case, and I'm pretty sure where I would draw the line between shooting and watching.

KB

When it's time to shoot -- shoot -- don't talk. Jose Whales (I think I got that quote right)

Taken at face value,

Picking berries, wife gets mauled by a brownie.

I think I'd bear a grudge.

Ok, sorry about that,.... bad pun.

Yea, His family had to send him home while his wife was in the hospital, after her first days of crisis were past. He was making himself crazy with guilt over the incident, and they put him on seditives too.

I went over to his house and visited with him some. He told me about how it happened, and some of the details I would rather forget the mental image. I knew that it was a special time to hear the story while it was fresh, and perhaps to allow my friend some mental relief, because I knew we would never talk about it again in such detail, and never talk about it at all when his wife got home. I was right about that.

The short story is, after standing on a stump and looking around, he and the family dog walked down the logging about 100 yards, while his wife stayed near the truck, and picked blue berries. Soon he heard her screem, and the dog ran to her first. When he got near, he couldn't see the bear, or his wife, but could only hear everything, as the bear had drug her down into a low place. She later told me that the bear had obviously snuck up on her, and the first she saw it, was its head coming around a big stump, at about ten feet.

Anyway, soon he saw the dog flying through the air twisting, and he was sure the bear had broke its back. He was yelling and trying to get to where he could see the bear through the bush, but the bear charged him, head low. He shot the bear in the shoulder, over the top of its head as the bear was below him. He said the bear went down, but got right back up, turned around and ran away. My friend is left handed, but shoots a right handed bolt action in 300H&H. He said he shot again right up the ass as the bear went over a log. He never saw that bear again. He gathered his wife, loaded her in the truck, and started out. About 200 yards down the logging road, their dog ran out into the road, so he loaded it up too, then went to the clinic. She was medivaced out to a real hospital in Juneau, after they did what the could locally.

Incidentally, that dog is gun shy, but it dove right in there and bit that bear on the ass until it turned to chase it. That's when the dog got thrown into the air, and that's when the bear charged my friend, who said if it wasn't for that dog, surely the bear would have killed his wife. It was very close. The dog hid because of the gun blast, not because it was afraid of the bear.

Her first crisis was that her organs nearly stopped working, as fluid built up in her body. She swelled up ans was in shock. That almost killed her within the first 12 hours, but after she got a little better, the infection set in, which almost got her too.

Back to the bear. F&G and others looked for that bear, but couldn't find it. The next summer, late, the remains of a bear was found nearby, but the ravens and eagles, and other bears had pretty much reduced it to hair and bones.

So the 300 killed that bear, which my friend described as not very big, but it was not DRT. I am amazed that the bear turned and ran away after being hit. But it must have been a good hit, since it went down. Had that bear not turned, he could nave easily killed both of them, or at least injured them so that they couldn't come home, and had to spend the night out. That would have been even more horrible.

I think it was the same year in the fall that a guy was visiting his brother near here, and this hunter was so proud of his new 300 WSM using 165gr bullets. It worked so well on Elk. Short story is he shot a nice size brown bear with it, but got only one shot into the chest. The bear ran off, and they couldn't find it. But sure enough, the remains, hair and bone, were found nearby next spring.

But I'm sure there are plenty of stories where the 30 cal whatever did the job without having to wait so long to find the bear dead.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
Gumboot, My first instinct is to say. . . . . WHAT?
Look, I understand what you are saying, but I think the point being made is this. I've hunted for about 45 years, and I shoot, oh, maybe 20,000 to 30,000 rounds a year give or take. ( practice, testing competition, etc. I've taken maybe 450 game animals during my lifetime, and feel pretty confident that even with the largest caliber, I could probably place the bullet pretty well. So for YOU or I, bigger may well stop a Bear faster. BUT, guides, like Mr. Shoemaker, have to take out clients that listen to guys like you and myself that CAN shoot well on these forums, and we tell them they need a .338 or bigger for Bear if they are to be successful. After all, you and I do know, that a really big bullet in the right place may drop something big, a little faster then a smaller bullet in the right place. THEN since they don't shoot all that much during the year, they flinch and make a bad shot. NOW the guide HAS to kill the Bear for the client. I take hunters out on occasion and find that about 1 in 50 can handle anything much bigger than an .06. And most can't shoot THEM well. The data Mr. Boddington compiled, was an average. And that average is what guides have to put up with. Now Gumboot. . . . If I come up there and you and I go Bear hunting together,( Hell, I'll bring the beer), then, let's take some big guns. Cause, you and I can shoot them very well, right? But I'll bet you if I hand my .375 or .458 to someone with lot's of money for a guided hunt, and very little shooting experience; after the first shot, he couldn't hit much of anything important. And, ON AVERAGE, the bigger gun I hand him, the less important his shots become. Smart guides understand this, and I believe Mr. Shoemaker is one smart guide! Fair enough?

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Is it close enough to my 6 month moriatoriam That I can agree with Mr Wright , then I,ll zip it .....

No --- instead it just got extended another month.