i saw on the hunting report website a story about a man that had his brown bear shot by his guide after he had completey missed it and had to pay for it.

has anyone heard how that was finally resolved?

does anyone out there have any information on this, or maybe seen something about this disgusting story on another website?

any help is appreciated, many thanks.

cold zero

Try this link for a discussion.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=175338&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

The one thing that wasn't considered was the intent of the words "attempting to take". It is my understanding that the "attempting" was inserted so that game law violators could be prosecuted more easily, e.g., if a person shoots at a robo-deer decoy, he is "attempting to take" a deer, even though a) it wasn't a real deer, and b) you can't 'kill' a decoy.

George

The guide situation here in Alaska has been rotten to the core for quite some time now. Shortly after statehood when Governors, ADF&G Commisioners and most state officials were reasonably honest, an Attorney General deemed most if not all the guide requirements to be unconstitutional, and that US citizens didn't need guides to hunt. The way guides got to be guides created a closed class and was also illegal. I don't think anyone followed up and the situation still exists, Waiting for someone to file suit and straighten ou the mess. They have political power and influenence far beyond what any other citizen has over our game laws, to their own benefit and the detriment of all other hunters and fishermen. The guide that allowed his client to fire at a Brown Bear at 200 Yards should have had his license pulled immediatley, should not have been able to collect his fee, should have been fined and have had to pay the clients costs in getting to Alaska. It should not have used the man's tag up. I talked to a man last spring who was on a weekend camping and fishing trip from Sitka, to West Chichagof, with his wife and small kids, and a Bear guide come up all threatening and ordering him out ot the country because he had clients there. Hopefully the son of a bitch will threaten the wrong guy some day. That is just just one story of how arrogant these folks are. Damned if I would have payed him, not with out a court fight. The trouble is that most guys think the guide, or assistant guide knows what he is doing, and follows his advice on when how far and what to shoot. Actually you get to be a guide here only on the basis of who you know, who you are related to, or who's ass you kiss so you can get hired for the required years as an assistant to the guide who will eventually "recomend" you. This is what makes it a Closed Class. Supposed to be constitutionally ilegal. You non Alaska resident hunters need to get together and try to straighten this mess out. Don't pay a nickel until you have an ironbound contract, spelling out every minute detail, get a copy of the laws and regulations on guided hunts, before you book. There are more shyster and poorly qualified guides here than there are good trophy bears. Walex Juneau

Walex,

As you know, west Chichagof is wide open country. I'd love to hear which Guide claims this area as his own.

I live in Sitka, and understand that getting to this area is tough (done it my own single engine cabin cruiser.) There's about 7 miles of open ocean running before the adventurous folks hit Pealse Passage, or a bit more north (more open water) before using the Navaids provided.

Anyhow, a State of Alaska, or a Federal Tongass NF Forest Service Permit doesn't include include exclusive rights to an area from regular folks, just to commercial operators.

I've had good experiences with Guides here in S.E. Alaska. They've been friendly to me so far. Of course I respect there business needs, (as a local) and I expect they recognize my rights as a local hunter.

There are some tight areas, but I would never anchor up in an area where other boats are already present. Thank Goodness there is still room for all...

Always make me wonder how the states could inforce the long waiting periods for residents either your are or not a resident. They the states could not inforce restritions on welfare payments went all the way to the supreme court saying that waiting periods were unconsitutional. Some body with more money then I have could make a good case. Or a group that wanted to back someone.

BW Don't have a clue who the guide was who was throwing his weight around, but apparently was out of Sitka, or at least works that area. We avoided the area where the guides were working, but didn't get reciprocal courtesy, One operator came into Falcon Arm and anchored within a quarter mile of us and launched skiffs with hunters all around us. So many Pilgrims motoring around we just left. That's where we met the young fellow with the Boston Whaler who was setting for halibut and looking for a bear also. The guides who are good guys, are really good people, but there are more and more of the bad apples in the system. So something is real flawed about the process of getting to be guides in the first place. They are really working on getting all game hunts for out of state hunters guide mandatory. Tie up everything and then it will really be a racket for them. Won't be able to hunt rabbits without paying through the nose for their services. My point is that if you have to have a guide the state has the responsibility to make damn sure the guy has the ability and not just take the existing guides word that he is worthy, these guys have their own closed class, and run the show themselves pretty much and don't do a good job of it, from the number of them that are jailed for illegal hunting activities every year. That pretty much tells the tale. Walex

Walex,

Your very right about the 'closed class' when it comes to Guides. The State has a website for checking out who's got a guide license, and where they can operate. When I ran a search, I was suprised just how many guides all had the same last name. It's a family business, and a 'who ya know' deal.

I'm not exactly thrilled that they let non-Alaskan residents be guides. I know that they can do a good job, and at least one is a good friend of mine, but it just doesn't seem right to me.

I also have seen the Alaska Profesional Hunters Association (the Guide group) push for a requirement to use guides for non-resident moose hunters. They claim it would reduce wanton waste. That's true, but that's what the Fish & Fur folks get paid for, not guides.

I'm looking at starting a hunting/fishing transporter business here in the S.E. The Troopers and the Feds keep a very close eye on transporters, making sure they don't provide 'big game guide services.' Still, it's the only way to break in since they Guiding industry is locked up.

The only thing that makes guides a closed class is that you have to have a recommendation from a guide to be an assistant. This is not hard to get if you are willing to work as a packer for a season or so.
After that you have to have the recommendation of 6 hunters, no more than 2 in one year, for work done as an assistant guide, and take the required tests, etc., to get your license.
There are actually about as many guides as there are assistant guides licensed in Alaska.
So for it being a closed class, it is not. But it takes 3 to 4 years working for a guide before you can get a license, assuming you do the job well in the eyes of the clients.
Walex, you complain about the quality of guides, but that it should be easy to become one - that is contradictory. I would like to hear how you think it should work instead.

Rob,

The non-Alaskan assistant guide I mentioned is also a PH in Africa. The amount of testing that's required to be a PH amazed me. Perhaps the State should look into the Africa PH requirements, and use those standards.

There's not even a shooting test to be a Guide in Alaska.

For those who are interested in what is required to be a Registered Guide (the only one who can actually book hunts for money), here's the text from the State of Alaska...

Sec. 08.54.610. REGISTERED GUIDE LICENSE. (a) A natural person is entitled to a registered guide license
if the person
(1) is 21 years of age or older;
(2) has practical field experience in the handling of firearms, hunting, judging trophies, field preparation of
meat and trophies, first aid, photography, and related guiding and outfitting activities;
(3) either
(A) has passed the qualification examination prepared and administered by the department under
AS 08.54.600; or
(B) provides evidence of 25 years of experience as a class-A assistant guide or class-A assistant guide
outfitter;
(4) has passed a certification examination prepared and administered by the department under AS 08.54.600
for at least one game management unit;
(5) has legally hunted in the state for part of each of any five years in a manner directly contributing to the
person�s experience and competency as a guide;
(6) has been licensed as and performed the services of a class-A assistant guide or assistant guide, or of a
class-A assistant guide-outfitter or assistant guide-outfitter under former AS 08.54.300 - 08.54.590, in the state for a
part of each of three years;
(7) is capable of performing the essential duties associated with guiding and outfitting;
(8) has been favorably recommended in writing by eight big game hunters whose recommendations have been
solicited by the department from a list provided by the applicant, including at least two favorable recommendations
for each year of any three years during which the person was a class-A assistant guide or assistant guide, or a
class-A assistant guide-outfitter or assistant guide-outfitter under former AS 08.54.300 - 08.54.590;
(9) has provided proof of financial responsibility if required by the department under AS 08.54.680 ; and
(10) has applied for a registered guide license on a form provided by the department and paid the license
application fee and the registered guide license fee.
(b) A master guide license authorizes a registered guide to use the title master guide, but is for all other purposes
under this chapter a registered guide license. A natural person is entitled to receive a renewable master guide license
if the person
(1) is, at the time of application for a master guide license, licensed as a registered guide under this section;
(2) has been licensed in this state as a registered guide or a guide-outfitter, under former AS 08.54.010 -08.
54.240, former AS 08.54.300 - 08.54.590, or this chapter, for at least 12 of the last 15 years, including the year
immediately preceding the year in which the person applies for a master guide license;
(3) submits a list to the department of at least 25 clients for whom the person has personally provided guiding
or outfitting services and the person receives a favorable evaluation from 10 of the clients selected from the list by
the department; and
(4) applies for a master guide license on a form provided by the department and pays the application fee, if
any.
(c) A registered guide may contract to guide or outfit hunts for big game and may provide transportation services,
personally or through an assistant, to big game hunters who are clients of the guide.
(d) A person who is licensed as a registered guide may be employed by another registered guide to perform the
functions of a registered guide or class-A assistant guide in the game management unit for which the person is
certified under AS 08.54.600 or of an assistant guide in any game management unit.
(e) A registered guide who contracts for a guided hunt shall be
(1) physically present in the field with the client at least once during the contracted hunt; and
(2) in the field and participating in the contracted hunt, unless the hunt is being conducted by a class-A
assistant guide or a registered guide employed by the contracting registered guide.

To be a class-A assistant guide one must...

Sec. 08.54.620. CLASS-A ASSISTANT GUIDE LICENSE. (a) A natural person is entitled to a class-A
assistant guide license if the person
(1) is 21 years of age or older;
(2) applies for a class-A assistant guide license on a form provided by the department and pays the license
application fee and the license fee; and (3) either
(A) has
(i) been employed during at least three calendar years as any class of licensed guide in the game
management unit for which the license is sought; and
(ii) at least 10 years� hunting experience in the state; military service outside of the state for not
more than three years shall be accepted as part of the required 10 years� hunting experience;
or
(B) provides
(i) evidence that the person physically resides in the game management unit in which the person
is to be employed;
(ii) evidence that the person has had at least 15 years� hunting experience in the game
management unit in which the person is to be employed; military service outside of the state
for not more than three years shall be accepted as part of the required 15 years� hunting
experience; and
(iii) a written recommendation from a registered guide, state trooper, state fish and wildlife law
enforcement officer, or state fish or game biologist who is familiar with the person or who
intends to employ the person as a class-A assistant guide.
(b) A class-A assistant guide
(1) may not contract to guide or outfit a big game hunt;
(2) shall be employed by and under the supervision of a registered guide who has contracted with the client
for whom the class-A assistant guide is conducting the hunt;
(3) may take charge of a camp and conduct guide activities from the camp without the contracting registered
guide being in the field and participating in the contracted hunt if the contracting registered guide is supervising the
guiding activities;
(4) may not perform functions of a class-A assistant guide outside of the game management unit for which the
license is issued; and
(5) may be employed by a registered guide to perform the functions of an assistant guide in any game
management unit.

The bold emphasis is mine.

Here's the link...

Alaska Guide License

George,
You are right. Interesting how the writers from Alaska admit they have never heard of the use of this rule like this, but they are LEGALLY supposed to be advising their clients of all state and federal laws regarding hunting, land use etc...How do you advise if you don't know? By the way, nice buff. When, where and what did he score?

BW, had been a little while since I looked at the statute - guess it is 8 instead of 6 recommendations.

Not surprising that there is no shooting test - most of the guides booking the hunts don't accompany the hunter in the field, the assistants do that - mostly the guides just fly around to check on hunters and to try to spot game from the air.

not only is there no shooting test, there is no requirment for vision either. another important skill for a guide to have who is supposed to spot animals for the client.

cold zero

Chris,
Yes,exactly,the guides. Under the responsibilities of guides 12 AAC 75.310 paragraph (8), it states what I had posted. Yet like the (NEW) use of the take definition, one can clearly see, that the responding people from Alaska, some being guides have never heard of such a ludicrous use of the rule. So how could one of the guides be expected to tell a paying client about something they have never heard of? Kind of makes it a unfair playing field for guide and client alike.

Hi Bill,

Thanks. I took that buff in the Muhesi concession, Tanzania, November 2001. He had a 43 3/8" spread, and scored 117 7/8 SCI IIRC.

George

GeorgeS,
Back to the original controversy here (briefly). If you read BW's last post, the "take" definition seems to be the screw all, or anybody, if they choose to, when they choose to, or where they choose to, rule. All that is fine as long as those guiding the non residents are making them aware of it at contracting time and not when they arrive in camp, and that was the original issue of the post by COLDZERO.

Now fun stuff!! I hunted with Luke Samaras in Maasai land and then to the Selous in 1999. Thirty day trip, (23) days of hunting, Yee ha!! I took my (3) allowed cape buffalo. (1) 43 (1)38 and (1) 36 actually my favorite. He was an old guy with perfectly polished off boses. I wish I knew how to post pictures. On the same hunt I took the #3 in the world Nyassa Wildebeest.

[ 10-30-2003, 03:29: Message edited by: Bill G. ]

Bill,

You need to look at the FAQ for this site; it tells you how to post photos.

George

BW -Not to cause conflict, but one does not need to be a Class A assistant before becoming a registered guide. One does have to be a assistant guide for 3 years before he/she can get a registered guide lic. Maddog

Maddog,

Reading the info above, which I posted, it appears you are correct.

No problem, nor conflict.

If anyone happens to be going to the SCI convention, there will be a seminar with Causey of Hunt Reports, Gentner,an "Alaskan guide" and and African PH. Might be kind of entertaining - think they need an ADF&G rep as well.

Rob,
Bill Gentner here. I am not sure I will be a part of that issue. The hunting report and I have a severe difference of opinion as to the problem that exists. They (the hunting report) along with many guides feel the issue is with assistant guides qualifications and I concur. In my opinion and I believe yours also, (if you are the Rob from "the highly sensored forum"), severly screwed up laws and enforcement issues is the problem. I have stated from the beginning, if there are (100) more cases like mine, it is a loose, loose, for the non-resident and a win, win, for the outfitter and the state of Alaska.

Back to the original issue about the guide shooting the guys bear.

Has anybody heard the guides side of the story?

Regards,

Pete

Pete,
The guides skewed account is over on the hunting report. www.huntingreport.com. The accurate account is at www.huntersbeware.com Enjoy the read.

Bill G.

Bill,

Perhaps because I don't subscribe to the Hunting Report I could not read the "guides skewed account" but I did read "the accurate account is at www.huntersbeware.com"... Thats when I realised you were the client in question and to be honest your choice of words made me smile just a little although I realise this is no laughing matter for you nor the guide or outfitter.

The whole issue raises so many questions at so many levels. Looking at just one of these issues it seems that however you look at it, the guide did act within the letter of the law. What is harder for an observer to disern is whether he simply made a bad judgement call or acted dishonestly ie had every intention of taking the shot regardless of whther you hit the bear or your own instructions to him...

In your investigations, did you find any similar incidents pertaining to this particular guide and/or out fitter?

Regards,

Pete

Pete,
The guy calling himself "COLDZERO" has had a conflict with this company but of a different nature. My website speaks of another hunter from Utah that was in camp the same time I was, had his bear shot by his guide, BUT ,he had hit his bear and I do not know what prehunt discussions went on between he and his guide. The head guide publicly stated that we were read all the laws upon arrival in camp which is a bald faced lie.

What I can talk about regarding these situations is this. My fish taxidermist hunts Kodiak for ducks with his friends and they guide themselves. The camp they stay in has bear guides present that are guiding clients for ducks and deer. These guides told him very few bears leave Kodiak with just one bullet hole beacause they almost always also shoot the clients bear. BUT. In all fairness to that story, not you or I are privy to the agreement between the hunter and the client and I would be very reluctant to ridicule or pass judgment on those cases. If a client desires a follow up shot from his guide, or is not up to the task of cleaning up his own mess in the case of a wounded bear, that is his decision. In my case if I had wounded the bear, my guide would have been carrying my baseball cap and my backpack, while I went in and dug him out. A number of other hunters that have contacted me have been in my shoes but were satisfied with a make up hunt. I wanted cash back. I hope I have answered your questions. Good Hunting.

I have been following this with interest as I have been to Alaska hunting and had a bear shot by a guide myself. There have been a lot of good points made. Choosing a good outfitter/guide is the hardest part of any hunting trip. Choosing the biggest/best/most expensive/ well known outfitter is no garuntee of anything. I found that out in Texas last year when I got screwed out of $2500 by a large ranch. I see the break down as the point where the guide kept shooting eventually taking the bear. Before I went to Alaska I accepted the responsability of knowing the game laws as well as the local customs. In spite of any legal BS that might have been signed in camp I knew that was MY responability. Fortunately for me the Master guide I chose was very upfront in explaining that all Bears are shot by the guide immediately after you shoot. I was a little taken aback at first but as he explained (we were the first in base camp) that many will arrive unprepared and cant shoot worth a damn. I thought ok here we go with the ego's. He also explained that their were those in the past who did not like that program. Of course none of them wanted to be the one to chase a Po'd bear that had been shot in the arse into the thicket While the guide watched from a safe distance As I watched the other groups arrive through out the day I began to appreciate what the guide was talking about. One group arrived with out sleeping bags, another had a new unsighted rifle etc. I Accepted this as I think it only makes sense for a guide to take a follow up shot on a dangerous animal. It's not just your azz hanging out there alone ! I also accept that it is my responsability to shoot well. In my case I missed at 60 yards ! My guide shot and missed as well. I shot again and missed, The guide shot again and dropped the animal. Was the guide to blame ? NO ! Was I pissed ? You bet. At first I did not want the hide but I did take it and it is a nice reminder of a great hunt overall. We stalked several huge bears that week and saw countless others. The rug is a reminder of a great trip. I think it is completely unreasonable to expect that you are going to show up in camp and tell the PH how things are going to go. Most of the people I have hunted with would have set you straight in a hurry. Others would just chuckle to them selves and think yeaaaah right pal ! I think all of this rubbish about the laws and going to the Police is totall Horse crap. Totall minutia. The fact is you were miss informed and you missed your shot. Get over it. I would like to believe those I have hunted with would have offered another discounted hunt the following season. Expecting cash back was totally unreasonable. In my case I had to know why I missed. During this hunt a storm began with 70 MPH winds and horizontal rain. Luckily for us the bear was on a protected side of a foot hill. It was midnight before we got the animal skinned and back to the tent. The next morning while every one else waited for the plane I hiked back down to get my brass. It turned out that I had a lot of defective Weatherby factory cartridges. The primers blew right out of the brass. Weatherby did replace all of the ammo.....Maybe I should have asked them to pay for my hunt ? Who know's. Either way it's a real pisser to drop that kind of cash and leave PO'd. I do not think your experience is indicitive of Alaska.

I was planning on letting the dead dog lie, but will throw in a few more thoughts.

I too find some stories funny. I find it very funny that Bill had absolutely no clue that guides sometimes have to fire finishing shots into bears. I wonder what he thought the guides gun was for, substitute for his masculinity? to look macho? could it be those guns had a purpose, ie finishing a wounded animal? You were able to know that their were guides for hunting bears in Alaska, but never read any of the stories about past hunts? The guides in the story never fired?

I also find the boastful claims about being able to go into the alders to sort thing outs by someone that completely missed an unwounded animal a bit doubtful. I just don't see where the shooting skills would suddenly appear in a much more stressful and rushed situation? The original shot was either rushed due to pressure from the guide, or muffed do to the excitement of the moment. It happens to all of us, and is understandable, but ultimately it was the hunters choice to make the shot, and his shot is what caused all the following consequences. This seems to be the point that Bill is unable to grasp or accept repsonsibility for. Did the guide do wrong, yup, but Bill set him up for it.

Now, to the crux of the situation, the guide shooting an animal that was unwounded. The guide has seen in the past how clients have historically screwed up shots. I'm sure Bill had already had ample opportunity to express his shooting capabilities and prowess upon the guide. So, the guide probably thinks, this guy is the typical blowhard client who will muff the shot, but he doesn't expect the guy to completely miss, or maybe he does?

So now what is the solution? Do all the guides allow poorly hit wounded animals to escape into the alders, with the assumption the client completely missed? Do guides have to be sure that they see visible impact on the bear before shooting? Do they have to see blood on the ground? Some clients shoot small bores, which will show no effect on the animal short of a CNS hit, and won't leave a blood trail. So then what?

Should ADF&G issue tags to guides for oopses? Knowing ADF&G, that isn't going to happen. If ADF&G says that guides that shoot unwounded animals will be persecuted for taking an animal w/o a tag, then guides will certainly be much less likely to pull the trigger. All good and fine until the guides have to put themselves into the much more dangerous situation of going into the alders after a wounded bear. Perhaps a guide or client will then end up getting killed as a result.

rob;

it did not bother u though when paul was insulting the non residents. it's good that your say counts for 0.

cold zero

Post deleted by ChuckWagon

Yeah the ammo thing was a real pisser. I bought the Weatherby and spent all summer at the range working up loads etc. I tried to use primer seal on my hand loads at the last minute but it seemed to effect my accuracy. At the last minute I began to second guess myself and bought the factory ballistic tips. Big mistake. I shot a huge boo at about 15' lol not much left of that bullet ! and then the misses with the primers blowing out arrrgh Live and learn ! Alaska was killer and We can not wait to return. I would hunt with the same outfitter with no reservation at all. A lot of good people. You have to love a city and airport like Anchorage where every one has guns and fishing poles I want to get out and chase a sitka deer from a boat some day. The next trip will be to the SE fishing.

Chuckwagon,

You reminded me of what my Drill Sergeant used to tell us (and what I told the folks I worked with when I was a sergeant), which was...

"What's the maximum effective range of an excuse??? Zero meters!!!"

Cold Zero,

I think the only one insulting non-Alaskan residents is Bill. He seems to think that since he failed to understand all the laws, that everyone else must be ignorant of them too.

I've also noticed that Bill resorts to direct insults here on the board, whenever someone disagrees with him. That speaks volumes to me, about the 'real' Bill G., and what probably happened on that fateful day

Ho Hum! Stretch, groan, scratch, fart. Hey guys, I just woke up from a long, peaceful slumber & found this BS from BillG still going on. Seems he sure likes to beat a dead horse. Guess it doesn't matter one iota to him that he screwed up by taking too long of a shot on a big, mean old brownie & then missed. It wasn't his decision, was it! It doesn't matter to him that the guide tried to make it right by offering him a return hunt at cost. It matters naught to him that he probably was saved a citation in Kodiak when told to fill out his required paperwork by Dep't of Fish & Game personnel. It also matters little that his previous comments to the effect that both Fish & Game laws and the guiding regulations were not readily available to the public. I personally pointed out his innaccuray on that one.

Ya know what I'd like to see? I'd love to watch ol' hotshot Bill, the hunter's hunter, follow up by himself on a wounded brownie in the thickets with his rifle that produces 5000 ft. lbs. of energy.

Well, enough of this vitriolic diatribe. I'm bored as hell with the entire subject. Ol' Bill can just stew in his own juices as far as I'm concerned. I'm goin' back to sleep. Later, Bear in Fairbanks
ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz.............

This seems like a issue for the Alaskan professional guides to persue. I don't see what other recourse their could be. I expect a claim could be filed against the outfitter for some form of express and implied warranty that the client would be the one to "take" a animal. In this case the underlying issue seems be one of responsability. Based on the adverse reactions to the topic on numerous web sites I doubt my fellow statesman would get far with a jury.

BW
You're right, the word 'take'. That specific word will be clarified when this is all over with, count on it. Don't get me wrong, I don't care if Mr. Gentner gets any of his money back. I just want some these laws less open to interpolation. Some are too 'wide open', they need tightening up. The potential is that in the end, we will all, res and non-res, be somehow breaking the law. Proof is the wanton waste law.
Gua's? In the SW of AK, 9,17,19 and this spring, 8. Up till now I have tried to guide father/son teams on their first AK hunt, and believe it or not, women, with their husbands/boyfriends. Caribou, swamp donkey and bear.

The one thing I see that others often choose to over look is that they are responsible for knowing the laws and they are responsabile for deiciding to accept a animal and take the shot. In my minds eye once a guide has put me on a animal that I have glassed or accepted in any way and put in in a position to shoot, be it 20 yards or 200 yards and I take the shot, That guide/outfitter has fullfilled their contract with me. Their have been a few times I have passed on a animal a guide reccomended I take. Some times that meant I went home empty handed. That was MY choice. I have shot and missed. ooops well $$%%^ ! No one to blame but me. Even with defective ammo. I should have tested that lot before I left. I remember a drill SGT that I had who had a little saying that went " Excuses, Excuses, Excuses ! Excuses build monuments to the incompetent ! "

CW
Every guide I hunted with,was watching through binocs to
"call the shot."I have not had a problem with any guide
in any state.Caveat,I don't hunt grizz.

I just infer from Bill's post, he would like other new bear hunters to know what SOME AK guides SOP is.

Have a good weekend.

Jeff

If that was the case I think he could greatly benefit from presenting his case in a less adversarial light. Most noteably avoiding the ADFG, the police and slamming everyone he comes in contact with on numerous web sites that does not agree with him. But I think you make a good point. Enjoy your week end as well.