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Ok all you bear hunters. I have a problem I am dealing with. I purchased a new 416 Remington rifle for my brown bear hunt coming up in September. My problem is with sticking cases. Federal factory loads (2400 fps) = hard extraction. Hand loads loaded "down" to the 2300 fps range = no sticking and easy extraction. It seems that anything 2400 fps or above, the case will stick in the chamber and is "very" hard to eject. I plan on calling the company I purchased the rifle from on Monday. They are all at the SHOT show this week and want be back in the shop until next week. I have a feeling it's just a tight chamber issues that can be corrected pretty easy. That leads me to my main question. What velocities are really needed for consistant kills on brown bear under 200 yards with a 416 Remington? I doubt a bear could tell much difference in 2300 fps vs. 2400 fps. Right now I am loading 400 grain Nosler Partitions but plan on getting some 370 grain North Forks to try. So.....what do you guys think? Will loading down in velocity 100 to 200 fps be a drastic mistake? I realize something needs to be done to correct this issue for sure. I wouldn't want to get off on a hunt and my ammo not show up and have to rely on purchasing some factory ammmo to get by. I sure don't want to go brown bear hunting with something that the case is going to stick in the chamber on the first shot!  If it can't take it......it can't stay. | ||
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What action is your 416 RM Rifle? Factory or Custom build?? A 200yd shot is a loooong shot for coastal bears. Nosler Partition projectiles would be my last choice for coastal browns. Invest in some Swift's &/or Barnes projectiles. | |||
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It is a custom gun from Ed Brown. I figure my shot should be l00 yards or less. That's why I was wondering if a lower velocity would make a whole lot of difference on a bear under 100 yards. The gun shoots great. Very accurate......just can't have the bolt sticking on me on a bear hunt. If it can't take it......it can't stay. | |||
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factory loads in a factory rem 416 went 2450 back in 1989 on a 3 screen ohler, and ive had 400 gr handloads over 2500 w no problems , didnt like the recoil, felt like it would beat the stock to death, ive cronyd 400's factory at 2400 with really short bbls If your gonna be dumb, you gotta be tuff. | |||
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Untill you do something with the rifle your best bet will be to live with 2300 fps. That will be plenty for a bear. I know Ed dose some custom grinding on his reamers. This is done with a purpose for accuracy. If your not happy with this rifle because the chamber might be a little tight then give Ed a call I'm sure he will work it over for you. The chamber on my .35 whelen is also a little tight. It was built by some guild members and tight tolerances just seem to be the norm for upper end custom guns. If I load my whelen to the top of the book loads my bolt handle will stick. I found that dropping the load by one grain went from sticky to easy function. DRSS NRA life AK Master Guide 124 | |||
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I know Ed. Sounds like a brass problem to me.... There is a difference between felt recoil of a 400 gr bullet at 2300 fps and felt recoil at 2400 fps. 2150 fps will do what you want. | |||
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The 400 gr partition would work . The 370 NF is better . The 350 gr TSX is IMO the perfect bullet in the 416 Rem Mag , unless it,s the 330 gr GS HV .. I myself prefer the 300 gr TSX for brown bear .. They really zoom !!... 2300 is better than 2150 . 2400 is better yet . .. 2900 is really awesome !!!! .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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I am completely satisfied with the rifle. It is very accurate and the fit and finish is excellent. I have several custom rifles and this one is the best of the lot. I plan on giving Ed a call next week to discuss. I don't think it's a brass issue. I am using new unfired Remington brass for my reloads and new factory Federal Premium with 400 grain TBBC bullets. They all feed just fine prior to firing. I can live with 2250 to 2300 fps if that is plenty to cleanly harvest a brown bear. Besides.......it a lot easier on the shoulder.  I'm going to try the 370 North Forks in the near future. They have been highly recommended. I am just a little concerned with the reduced velocity with them. Their web site states "not" to download that bullet for best performance. Thanks for the comments guys! If it can't take it......it can't stay. | |||
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I'm able to get 2475 with my .416 Rem and 370 grain Northforks using 80 grains of RL15 (loaded through a drop tube) and Fed 215 primer. That's out of a 21 inch barrel. I don't think a couple hundred fps is going to make a difference. For what it's worth, I recovered a couple of my PH's 400 grain Partitions from a buffalo. He was shooting them out of a 416 Rigby at around 2400 fps. Even with the front portion completely being shed they still weighed 325 grains. I don't think you'd have an issue with either bullet! Pete | |||
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I was a velocity nut in my younger years. I didn't think you could shoot one without it being maxed out on fps. Now that I am older, velocity doesn't seem so important anymore. I guess age has a way of slowing everything down!  This rife shoots great at 2400 fps or 2300 fps. Much less felt recoil at 2300. As long as that is enough to harvest a bear reliably, I'm good with that and can live with the rifle chamber being tight. I will load up the Northforks next week and see how they shoot. If it can't take it......it can't stay. | |||
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Your rifle is definitely exhibiting pressure problems. In a 416 Remington, which is prone to pressure problems in hot weather, I would not own a gun (especially a DG Rifle) that exhibited any form of pressure problems at "normal" factory velocities and normal weather conditions. The throat of your rifle may be too short or tight, you should send the gun back to the guy who made it and have him "fix" the problem. In the meantime, I would load it down, fact is at 2200 or even 2100 fps with 400 Grain bullets you will have more than enough gun for Brownies. | |||
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I agree EB. This rifle "hopefully" will end up in Africa one of these years in chase of a cape buffalo. I've got to do that before I get too old or die! I am calling them on Monday of next week. I will let everyone here know what the outcome of the conversation is. Until then........I have ordered some 370 grain North Fork bullets to try. I will get the Corny out and dust if of to check velocities as well. If it can't take it......it can't stay. | |||
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Hi Okie 7 STW Why don't you buy a box of Remington factory rounds and try them in your rifle. It could possibly be a brass problem. I've had the odd Fedral factory load get sticky in my 270 WSM. You could also try Remington or Winchester brass with your handloads to see if you run into the same situation. You might as well eliminate the brass factor from the situation. Take good care Dave | |||
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Good idea 470 Mbogo. I have some Winchester factory loads and some Nosler custom ammo on the way. I will give them a try as soon as I get them. I have been using new Remington brass for my reloads and I did have some slight sticking issues with a little hotter load that pushed the velocity just over 2400 fps. So far it seems the 2400 fps number is the issue. This factory ammo is about to break me! If it can't take it......it can't stay. | |||
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With your reloads have you made sure the bullet seating depth is good and the trim length for your cases are good. Is your bolt a little tight on closing as if your bullets are being pushed into the rifling. You can check your OAL for each bullet type with a cleaning rod. You have to make sure that you take one of your plastic or brass tips that you would slip a cleaning cloth through and cut it off so that it is flat on the end. It has to be flat so if you are checking pointed bullets the flat section will hit the tip of the bullet and stop.First close your bolt and slip the rod in from the muzzle until it stops at the bolt face. Now take your bolt out and drop which ever kind of bullet shape you want to check down through the chamber so the bullet goes into the throat of the barrel and give it a couple light taps so the bullet wedges lightly into the leade and rifling. Now slip the rod into the muzzle and lower it until it makes contact with the bullet tip. Mark this on your cleaning rod and then tap the bullet out. The difference between the two marks should give you the cartridge length from the bolt face to the bullet engaging in the rifling. Now back off a little from this point for your OAL. Remington brass is usually pretty good. This is just to eliminate possibilities before you can honestly say the rifle has a problem. If you still have problems maybe it would be worth fire lapping the barrel. Hope some of this helps you out. Take care, Dave | |||
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The factory Federal and my Remington brass reloads cycle through the chamber like warm butter. Slick and smooth as can be. No hard closing of the bolt at all. My reloads are 3.600 Overall cartridge length. The Federal factory rounds are 3.510 overall cartridge length. The shorter Federal ammo is sticking. I don't think bullet seating depth is the issue here. Thanks for all the suggestions and ideas! I'm sure this will all get worked out. I am calling Ed Brown to discuss today. If it can't take it......it can't stay. | |||
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Just got off the phone with a nice young man named Justin at Ed Brown Products in Perry MO. They want the rifle shipped back to check out what is going on. I am going to send in a detailed letter explaining what is going on and will send a sampling of the different brass used. Hopefully they can identify the problem and correct it pretty quickly and easily. They even offered to have UPS come to my house and pick up the rifle. I declined.......I would rather box it up and get it shipped off myself. It will be on it's way back to MO tomorrow. More later..........  If it can't take it......it can't stay. | |||
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Good deal Okie!!! Look fwd to hearing how it works out ..... . As an aside .. the 350 gr bullets are really great all around bullets in the 416 Rem ... .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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Update..........got a call from Ed Brown himself this afternoon. They had received my rifle and inspected it. They found some very small dings in the edge of the chamber. Not sure how they got there........either on their end or on my end. I did clean the rifle between 5 shot strings as per their breakin recommendations. Not sure if my cleaning rod caused the dings or what. I do know that I want be using that cleaning equipment on it again. Anyway.......Ed took the rifle apart and buffed out the chamber and smoothed everything up nice and slick. They will ship it back to me tomorrow. Before........the fired brass would not rechamber in the gun. Now it will according to Ed. Now......that opens up a whole new can of worms. What is the safest way to clean the chamber and barrel? I have several custom rifles and have never had a problem like this related to cleaning. I just know I don't want this happening again. If it can't take it......it can't stay. | |||
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Okie 7 stw If your not using a bore guide already use one. Otherwise just be carefull. Of course use a good rod coated or carbon fiber and One thing I always make a point of before I ever put a rod in my barrel, I wipe the rod off in case of any contaminants. Most peoples shop area mine included will have all kinds of nasty things floating around like meteal shavings etc. You get some of that on an oily rod and your causng yourself problems. Ed Brown is a great guy and a personal friend. I expected he would get right on the problem and get it solved. That reminds me I got an e-mail from him I need to repley to I guess I better get off the AR site and get to work. DRSS NRA life AK Master Guide 124 | |||
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Ed seems like a heck of a nice guy. We talked a long time about guns, hunting, bullets for bear and cape buffalo. It's very obvious he has been on a lot more hunts than I will ever be able to. It's nice to buy a custom rifle from soneone that has been there and done that. I wasn't using a rod guide, as I don't have one to fit that action. I will see if I can locate a generic rod guide of some sort before I head back to the range. If it can't take it......it can't stay. | |||
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Yes Ed dose a lot of hunting and thats what I like about him. I find it hard to warm up to guns made in Japan because I know the guys building them don't have a clue what the're used for or how to use them. I think Ed went on four bear hunts before he got hooked up with me. What do they say fifth time is a charm. Heres a photo of your gun maker and yours truly.  DRSS NRA life AK Master Guide 124 | |||
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Now my curiosity is up. The Fedral brass must be a bit softer if they were sticking in the chamber marks and the Remington were not. Interesting how little things can affect overall performance of a firearm. I hope it all works out for you now. Take good care, Dave | |||
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YOu're shooting a damned .416, no brown bear will have any clue how fast that bullet is going when it turns him inside out. If guys can regularly kill brownies with .300 magnums and even 30-06s, and they regularly do, why would you worry about a hundred feet per second, or even a couple hundred feet per second? That .416 is a thumper par excellence! | |||
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Another interesting thing is that Remington brass was not sticking, but neither the Federal or Remington fired brass would go back into the chamber. I will give it another try when I get the rifle back. Hopefully that problem is behind me now. Yep......I realize the 416 is plenty of gun for a brown bear. That's why I bought it. If it can't take it......it can't stay. | |||
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Nice looking bear AKshooter! Not too sure about you two though!!  If it can't take it......it can't stay. | |||
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The brass might not go back into the chamber unless you marked the top and put it back in exactly the same way. Did you notice any marks or feel any imperfections that the scored chamber might have left on the fired brass? Take good care Dave | |||
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Not really Dave. Nothing that really popped out at me anyway as something wrong. I went and bought a bore guide today to use when cleaning and a bore snake. I don't know if a bore snake only will get the barrel clean enough or not. I am now a little leary of putting a cleaning rod in there if the chamber is so tight that a few little scratches or nicks will cause the cases to stick. I would rather be safe than sorry. I'm ready to just shoot this thing on a regular basis between now and September so we are "as one" when I get off that boat and head into bear country. This is just all part of the overall "experience" leading up to the acutal hunt. Heck......I enjoy getting ready for a big hunt as much as the hunt itself!  If it can't take it......it can't stay. | |||
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2300fps is fine, if not better than 2400fps, as far as bullet performance goes. If the accuracy is there, be happy with it. Its still faster than a 404 Jeff, which no one would question as far as bear power. Every barrel and chamber is different, and my 416Rem, Win modl 70, likes bullets launched at 2390fps, so I never tried anything else. again, if the accuracy is there, go hunting. Good luck... Phil Massaro President, Massaro Ballistic Laboratories, LLC NRA Life Member B&C Member www.mblammo.com Hunt Reports- Zambia 2011 http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1481089261 "Two kinds of people in this world, those of us with loaded guns, and those of us who dig. You dig." | |||
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Best of luck on your bear hunt. I would still like to do a hunt like that. It's always intrigued me. Take good care Dave | |||
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I used My 416 Rem with handloads of Barnes 350 TSX, Rel 15, and Remington cases on a bear hunt on Kodiak 2 years ago with good results. The bullets were chrono'd at 2600 and the recoil was noticiply less than my 400 grain loads, also a bit flatter shooting. The bear couldn't get up after the first shot and would have died but I put two more insurance shots in him, none of the bullets were recovered. He measured somewhere around 9'9", I've forgotten the details. You might want to try this load, it works well on cape buffalo as well. The distance to the bear was right at 100 yards. | |||
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Okie, I'm taking my Rifles,Inc. 416 Rem to the penninsula this May. My load is 84gr Re15 with the 370gr Northforks. The load chronographs at 2580fps and is consistently under a MOA.I have used this load on hogs and Nilgai in our warm S. Texas weather and have not experienced any pressure signs. Obviously, accuracy is more important than velocity. A few hunderd fps will not be noticed by Mr. Brown. Have a great hunt! | |||
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I've got some 370 North Forks to try. I should have my rifle back next Tuesday. I will be loading some up ASAP to try. They have been hightly recommended from several great sources here on AR. Good luck. Get a big-un! If it can't take it......it can't stay. | |||
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Well the sun finally came out here, so I loaded up some 370 grain North Forks and headed to the range this afternoon. I also took along two different brands of factory/custom ammo to see if the bolt would stick again. I am glad to report that I had absolutely ZERO sticking issues today. As a matter of fact, the rounds fed and ejected much smoother than when it was brand new. I truly believe the chamber was a slight bit too tight from day one. Now for the results of my range sesson. I took my chronograph with me today to see exactly what the velocities looked like so I would have a better handle on factory vs. my reloaded rounds. All 5 round stings. Federal Premium 400 grain TBBC: Avg velocity = 2340 fps with an 19.6 fps SD. Listed velocity on the box is 2400 fps. NOTE: these were the rounds sticking the bolt before the rifle went back to the rifle builder. No sticking at all today. Nosler Custom 400 grain Nosler Partition: Avg velocity 2280 fps with an 9 fps SD. Listed velocity on the box is 2400 fps. Now for my reloaded rounds. 370 grain North Fork bullet & 75 grains of RL 15. Avg velocity 2200 fps with an 11 fps SD. 370 grain North Fork bullet & 77 grians of RL 15. Avg velocity 2270 fps with a 6.6 fps SD. The accuracy of this load was better than any listed here. Naturally the felt recoil is much less with my reloads at less than 2300 fps. The 2270 fps load was very accurate and something that is very close to perfect from a recoil and accuracy standpoint. What do you guys think? Should I be happy with the North Forks at 2270 fps or should I keep adding powder until I get into the 2300 to 2400 fps range? It's pretty amazing the difference in recoil at 100 fps less velocity. Much more controlable to shoot and more enjoyable. The North Fork website states NOT to load these rounds too slow for best performance. Would the 400 grain bullet at 2200 fps be better than slowing down the 370's? I have always had good luck with Partitions but these North Forks seem to be the ticket for brown bear.  If it can't take it......it can't stay. | |||
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I'd try another grain or two as long as you're not getting any high pressure signs and see if that get you're velocity up to around 2400 fps. You're accuracy improved when you went up two grains and you also cut you're SD down however, you only picked up 70 fps. And as mention before that Brown Bear won't even know the difference in 100 fps or so. Steve | |||
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the .416 Remington has a much smaller powder capacity than my Rigby. To match velocities it HAS to run at a lot higher pressure. If factory ammunition causes pressure signs in a factory rifle something is seriously wrong. I guess that is why I bought the original instead of the high(er) pressure version. Rich PS: I load mine about 2500fps and zero signs of pressure. | |||
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Those comments on the website are probably left overs from my comments. The point I was trying to make was that there is nothing to gain by slowing them down. That is not the case with a lot of bullets. With a lot of more conventional bullets, the faster you drive them, the more they expand, and the less the penetrate. Therefore, they can benefit from a lower velocity. That is not the case with NF. Once the bullet has reached 2100fps impact, the mushroom is as large as it will ever get. From there on, the faster you drive it, the deeper it penetrates. Another thing to remember is that the lower you start a bullet, the less the effective range where the bullet will perform. I could get 2575fps from a 26" barrel with 6KSi less pressure than the Remington factory loads I tested. Most can reach 2500fps from a 24' barrel. Anything in the 2400 to 2450 area would work better than slower and would be very reasonable on pressure. You are doing it the right way by working up slowly. No two rifles are the same and they can easily take different powder charges to achieve the same velocity/pressure. BTW, if I were just making an Alaskan only load, I would have used the 416-325. Lighter recoil, much faster speed, 30-06 trajectory, and plenty of penetration for bear or moose. No, you probably won't blow a chunk out of far hillside but, there would be plenty. | |||
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Okie, baised on my use of my 450/400 3 1/4" double rifle on deer, wild pigs, caribou, black bear, zebra, giraffe, cape buff elephant and lion, a 400gr bullet at 2200fps will be more than enough. With a 416 Bolt Rifle, using NF bullets at 2270fps I would not hesitate to go to Alaska, Africa, or Jurasic Park... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Thanks guys. I didn't even notice the 325 grain NF bullets listed. That is a very good idea. Of course I've been told that my shot (if I get one) would be less than 100 yards. Of course I realize that could possibly streatch on out a bit futher under certain circumstances. Hopefully that want happen. I like the idea of lighter recoil and flatter trajectory wiith the 325's, but I also like the energy created by the heavier bullet at closer ranges. Thank goodness I have plenty of time to work this out. But.......September will be here before I know it. Thanks for everyones help! There is a lot of great knowledge in this group! This is a fun adventure already. If it can't take it......it can't stay. | |||
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Good to hear the gun is working now. Not to open another can of worms but if your fired brass won't chamber you likely have an out of round chamber. 416 rems should go over 2400 with 400s with no problems. | |||
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