I will have to get a new gun for my upcoming trip to Alaska, which sounds great to me. I am a real sucker for a nice piece of wood on a gun, but am told that there is no place for woodstocked guns in Alaska. So I want to ask what you guys think. For a griz/sheep hunt in August, is a synthetic really an absolute must?

Synthetics are nice but all my rifles have wood. I never had a problem. Actually you will find out most of the folks up here hunt with rifles with wood. Sure, they may also have synthetics, but....


If sealed right, there isnt really an issue.

Plenty of folks hunt with wood stocks....and those rifles perform just fine--but usually also take a beating in the process.

Bring a rifle that you will be happy to have rained on for a week straight and you won't be disappointed.

Stainless and/or synthetic are easier to keep up in a camp where you may not be able to get anything dry....

The only thing I would suggest you avoid is laying out the money for a fine custom rifle with excellent wood if your concern for it will impact your hunt.

Best wishes for your hunt,

Dan

.........the only thing that I don,t do with my wood stocked rifles is HUNT .........I have had and seen several rifles ,,that warpped up to 2 feet off sight in point of aim ... ...... ... ,.,., I,m not even going to argue this one .............

My thoughts are that if everything is fine weather wise then a timber stock is great. BUT, if the weather turns nasty then you're going to wish you had a synthetic stock!!!
For a once in a lifetime trip, if you can't afford your rifle to be out then it has to be synthetic. Even if it is properly bedded.
I know on an expensive O/S hunt I couldn't afford the risk. For me it's about risk management, and to minimise the risk of evey part of the hunt.
Just my 2c worth.


Cheers,
Mark.

On a "once-in-a-lifetime" hunt, I'd take the best I could afford. You can't believe the moisture, not really humidity - I mean it's not humid like Houston in August. You are going to have wet ground, clouds, rain, and sweat like you may have never experienced. They may even tie your rifle to the wing struts of a Super Cub. These conditions scream for stainless steel and fiberglass/kevlar. If I was looking right now, I'd go get a Kimber 8400 in .300 Win Mag, mount a Leupold 2.5-8x36 in Talley mounts, and take a Leupold 2.5x Ultra light in backup rings. Then I'd take a good bonded, tipped round in 165 grains for the sheep and a good monometal (Barnes) or partitioned (Nosler or Swift A-frame) round in 200 grains for the bear.

Get your own range finder, a pair of Swarovski 10x32 ELs, and a Nikon XL II spotting scope. Get a good, well fitting, well padded backpack. Get a pair of Lowa Sheephunter boots yesterday and get to walking in them - the pack too. Cabela's microtex shirts are the best in the world. Helly Hanson makes the best raincoat - get the green Impertech 3/4 length model. I never wore the pants/bibs but I had them. Forget anything cotton. Get a 20 degree Wiggy's Ultra Light sleeping bag. Get a good Petzl or Princton Tec headlight that can slip over your hat.

This should get you started. Remember your weight limits. One month before your hunt, pack everything just like you are going to get on the supercub and weight it. You'll whine as you reduce, but better then than after you've paid the extra baggage fees to get it to Alaska and then have the outfitter tell you to reduce or don't get on the plane. Does this sound like a "lesson learned" or what?

Getting ready is half the fun - trust me. The better prepared you are the better you will feel once you get on the ground.

quote:

Originally posted by StormsGSP:
I will have to get a new gun for my upcoming trip to Alaska, which sounds great to me. I am a real sucker for a nice piece of wood on a gun, but am told that there is no place for woodstocked guns in Alaska. So I want to ask what you guys think. For a griz/sheep hunt in August, is a synthetic really an absolute must?

What about sliding down the shale shoot stopping yourself with your rifle butt? Wood is ok for moose or bou where I hunt, a sheep hunt will beat a wood stock up!!

If you love wood, bring wood. If you like synthetic, bring a synthetic stock. In either case, be prepared to have your equipment beat up a bit and get a tattoo from a rock as a permanent reminder of your adventure. I've seen a handfull of broken stocks over the past dozen years, so it happens. What do YOU want? It's your money, your hunt - do you want the emotional ties to the past that can come with a wood stocked beauty or do you want to prevent any outside chance of 'mission failure' on the hunt. We all do this thing called hunting for our own reasons.

Redlander that's as concise and good an equipment list as I've ever seen.

the chef

If a wood stock is properly sealed, and sadly most aren't, then it will be utterly stable. A friend of mine is a very experienced woodworker and hunter, and turned me on to using epoxy to seal a wood stock, then you can add oil over the epoxy. He's hunted Kodiak for 20 years and only once had a problem with a stock warping, and that was a stock he opened up the barrel channel and didn't re-seal it with epoxy.

The walnut stock he helped me finish has been utterly stable in hot, cold, wet and wetter conditions. The week I spent on Montague Island my rifle was in and out of a zodiak, rained on and yet it shot just as true as ever.

My advice is to go synthetic. You never know what's gonna happen on a sheep hunt. Even though it's more expensive, you might get a nice rifle with a wood stock but then put a synthetic on for hunting. That's what I did for my Pre-64 Mod. 70. On a hunt in open country, we tie our rifles across our packboards - they get scuffed up just from that. Trust me, you're not gonna want to carry your rifle in your hands. You're gonna want a walking stick instead. One other point, be certain to put some electrical tape (or something) over the muzzle to keep the crud out. Oh, I'd forget about taking the spotting scope as was suggested above. Your guide will have one anyway. Be sure to practice with your new toy a lot to gain your confidence in it. Have fun & enjoy. Bear in Fairbanks

STORM

I lived in bush Alaska for 22 years up until Oct '04. Once I bought my first synthetic stainless rifle in '86 I never looked back. On an alaskan hunt your rifle maybe called on to act as a walking stick, tent pole, canoe paddle as well as its intend purpose of shooting game. I think in an Alaska hunt your rifle needs to be more of a weather proof tool than a pretty toy. Buy the synthatic/stainless and don't worry about the cosmetics of your rifle.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Redlander:
On a "once-in-a-lifetime" hunt, I'd take the best I could afford. You can't believe the moisture, not really humidity - I mean it's not humid like Houston in August. You are going to have wet ground, clouds, rain, and sweat like you may have never experienced. They may even tie your rifle to the wing struts of a Super Cub. These conditions scream for stainless steel and fiberglass/kevlar. If I was looking right now, I'd go get a Kimber 8400 in .300 Win Mag, mount a Leupold 2.5-8x36 in Talley mounts, and take a Leupold 2.5x Ultra light in backup rings. Then I'd take a good bonded, tipped round in 165 grains for the sheep and a good monometal (Barnes) or partitioned (Nosler or Swift A-frame) round in 200 grains for the bear.

Get your own range finder, a pair of Swarovski 10x32 ELs, and a Nikon XL II spotting scope. Get a good, well fitting, well padded backpack. Get a pair of Lowa Sheephunter boots yesterday and get to walking in them - the pack too. Cabela's microtex shirts are the best in the world. Helly Hanson makes the best raincoat - get the green Impertech 3/4 length model. I never wore the pants/bibs but I had them. Forget anything cotton. Get a 20 degree Wiggy's Ultra Light sleeping bag. Get a good Petzl or Princton Tec headlight that can slip over your hat.

This should get you started. Remember your weight limits. One month before your hunt, pack everything just like you are going to get on the supercub and weight it. You'll whine as you reduce, but better then than after you've paid the extra baggage fees to get it to Alaska and then have the outfitter tell you to reduce or don't get on the plane. Does this sound like a "lesson learned" or what?

Getting ready is half the fun - trust me. The better prepared you are the better you will feel once you get on the ground.

................................The only 2 things he got wrong was a 300 instead of the 338 and he forgot the gortex top bivy sac for the sleeping bag .................The only cotton you need to bring is for cleaning lenses .............and mayby a snot rag ........................

quote:

For a griz/sheep hunt in August, is a synthetic really an absolute must?

No it is not an absolute must. Paul gave good sound recommendations for wood stocks-have you ever catered to your wood /scoped rifle when it is pouring rain all darn day and into the next etc...?

For example, I was asked to scout ways up some mountains outside of Seward about 35 min. out carrying only a 629-1, raining like the dickens! Glad to only carry my handgun but my brother in law was able to draw a permit for a Billy and he carried a synthetic stocked Mk X in a 300HH. Never seen so much damn rain!

Had to run a clothes line in the tent and dry out - so much for Gore-Tex. The stock did not warp or .......

For that kind of hunting a synthetic stock seems appropiate unless you can care for your wood stock prior to the hunt.

Personally I like wood over synthetic but you should have a few "weather-proofed" rifles available.

Rain,fog,sea spray,sleet,snow,jagged rocks,slip and fall,dampness,etc. etc..What sounds best: synthetic or nice wood? I think it is pretty simple.

Lots of great information from everyone.I remember the battle proven rifles used in WW 1, WW 2, Korea,Viet Nam were all wood stocked used in the worst of conditions in arctic,deserts,jungle rain forests with heat,rain,snow,sleet,mud,etc w/o falling apart or warping they managed to kill scores of germans,italians,japanese,koreans,chinese & others around the world.My favorites are high grade oil finished walnut stocks that have sealed channels.

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
................................The only 2 things he got wrong was a 300 instead of the 338 and he forgot the gortex top bivy sac for the sleeping bag .................The only cotton you need to bring is for cleaning lenses .............and mayby a snot rag ........................

Been on a DIY caribou hunt - beginning to plan on the sheep hunt. I will probably learn some more as I go along, but I am studious.

I took/will take a 30-06, the .300 Winnie (which I've owned before - also owned a .338 Winnie) should be plenty in a lightweight rig and you can get factory 200 grain loads (Federal and Remington). I just think the .300 give a little more versatility than the .338.

Redlander, a 300 win mag will serve you well on your sheep hunt and has served many before you. Both my rifles have synthetic stocks but if they were wood, I would not hesitate to use them in Alaska.

I don't like my fine wood stocked rifles going through the conditions of the above mentioned wars.They might do the job, but what do you have for a stock when you're done?

I buy guns to hunt with, not leave in my safe.

scr83jp A lot of those 03's M1's ect are wearing replacement wood stocks beacuse they broke cracked ect.

Most of 03's had there stocks replaced at the begaining of WWII. I had a chance to look at 24 03's that a local chapter of VFW had. They had replacement stocks with 1942 dates and arsenal marks.

Wood stocks can and do look very nice I really like the looks of a nice hunk of walnut ect.

But when it comes to rough wet hunting I'll take a stainless Syt stock rifle any time.

IMO properly laid out and properly dried wood will not warp..Cheap wood will..

I have hunted all over the world with nothing but wood stocks and have never had a stock warp or move the POI..I have had many other problems, but not that one..

For Alaska and such climes, I do glassbed my wood stocks from tang to forend, the barrels are free floated two thicknesses of paper tape. I don't know if this is necessary but a ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure IMO..MY old 300 H&H M-70 is 30 plus years old and it looks 100, its wood and never failed me, the same with my .338, and the .338 has only the recoil lug glassed..

I have no problem with glass stocks if you like them, but to me they are cold, feel like crap and I just do not like them or the way they handle. If I just had to have something on that order, I would opt for laminated wood that was sealed with a high gloss finish.

I feel the same about stainless steel, but to each his own and I respect everyones right to choose the guns they like and use.

Make mine rust blue and good walnut.

Thanks for all the help guys, obviously a lot of experience on this site. I am leaning towards synthetic. Some people are telling me my 30/06 would be fine for this combo hunt, others say no way. Thoughts?

There is nothing wrong with your 30-06. Use it with no worries. Unless of course you want a reason to buy another rifle.

Use good bullets and you shouldnt have a problem.

quote:

Originally posted by StormsGSP:
Thanks for all the help guys, obviously a lot of experience on this site. I am leaning towards synthetic. Some people are telling me my 30/06 would be fine for this combo hunt, others say no way. Thoughts?

What ever 30 cal cart. or greater 180g & heavier PREMIUM bullet that YOU are most confident & accurate with is the EXACT rifle you should bring to Alaska with you!! Have Fun!!!!!!!!

.......NO NO NO .........338...358........366...........375.............Unless you are really big on the 40 cal. and bigger ..

their is no disadvantage to a synthetic stock as long as they give you the accuracy you need. If they don't then glass bedding a synthetic can be a problem but thats another topic.
If you like wood like I do then that is not the kiss of death by any means on a hunt in AK. Only a couple of my rifles have synthetic wich I will only relocate to the most extream of hunting conditions (actully I haven't gotten around to that yet) As long as you give your rifle due care it will take care of you and I find that I get added enjoyment from hunting with a beutiful wood stocked rifle.
Thats just a personal thing and I would'nt expect anyone else to share my opinion on what makes a hunt more aesthitically pleasing.
Keep in mind some people limit ther expiriance to bow and arrow and some muzzel loaders or hand gun. With this in mind it's not unrealistic to hunt with a wood stock if that's what you want to do.
As far as caliber I've seen to many big bears taken with a .300 win mag to say it won't work for any big game purpose in AK.

The only wood stocked rifles I own are my higher grade .22's and my double rifle. I can glass and pillar bed a wood stock untill it will not warp but then it weighs to much to carry.
All my primary hunting rifles wear McMillan stocks. Period.

Snowwolfe,

Amen!!!!

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Akshooter:
their is no disadvantage to a synthetic stock as long as they give you the accuracy you need. If they don't then glass bedding a synthetic can be a problem but thats another topic.
If you like wood like I do then that is not the kiss of death by any means on a hunt in AK. Only a couple of my rifles have synthetic wich I will only relocate to the most extreme of hunting conditions ,......................... [LIST]
As far as caliber I've seen to many big bears taken with a .300 win mag to say it won't work for any big game purpose in AK.

.......... ..........I know of more bears needing to be killed with larger caliber and or other rifles .when shot with the 30 cals. than any thing larger ...........`Just can,t see any reason every one keeps defending a caliber that normally causes the guide or hunting companion to have to shoot the bear also to kill it .............How can anyone who usually has to take the dead bear pics in the thick brush because that is where the bear ran after being hit by a GREAT 30 cal. ....Most bears are first shot in the open ..........The 2 Big bears pictured in the big bear Pics thread were both shot in the open with fast 30 calibers ......1 was killed with a 458 and the other , from what was posted ran into an alder slide ........That stuff is ok to do on Kodiak or the peninsula where it,s really open country but from the studying of bear kills that I have done over the past 30 years ,,,most of the guides who got mauled by bears , were following bears shot first by 30 caliber rifles .......To me it,s stupid to use an inadequate rifle , when an adequete caliber works every bit as well for the lesser tasks ...........

My one and only Alaskan hunt was for mountain goat a few years back. I took a gun with a wood stock. I had a lot of problems with it. The gun was off by about 2 feet when I shot it. I would never go to Alaska again without a synthetic stock. Maybe I just had a bad experience, but it costs too much to hunt in Alaska to take a chance.

quote:

Originally posted by StormsGSP:
Thanks for all the help guys, obviously a lot of experience on this site. I am leaning towards synthetic. Some people are telling me my 30/06 would be fine for this combo hunt, others say no way. Thoughts?

I took my 30-06 on a caribou hunt, and did not worry about facing off with a bear. I used 180 Barnes TSX Federal Premium loads. However, if I was specifically going to hunt bears, my choice would be my Stainless/synthetic Model 70 .375 H&H. If you can't take two rifles (one being your 30-06 and another in .338 Win Mag for the bear) then a good compromise might be a Kimber Montana in .300 Win Mag, .325 WSM, or .338 Win Mag with a minimum of 200 grain bullets for the bear. The Montana will get you to 6lbs. 3ozs. for the WSM and 6lbs. 9 ozs. for the Win Mags. I am learning that for sheep hunting, ounces matter. If you do decide to take the 30-06, you should reload and use 200 grain bullets - Nosler Partitions seem to get high reviews in the '06.

originally posted by gumboot458

quote:

.......... ..........I know of more bears needing to be killed with larger caliber and or other rifles .when shot with the 30 cals. than any thing larger ...........`Just can,t see any reason every one keeps defending a caliber that normally causes the guide or hunting companion to have to shoot the bear also to kill it .............How can anyone who usually has to take the dead bear pics in the thick brush because that is where the bear ran after being hit by a GREAT 30 cal. ....Most bears are first shot in the open ..........The 2 Big bears pictured in the big bear Pics thread were both shot in the open with fast 30 calibers ......1 was killed with a 458 and the other , from what was posted ran into an alder slide ........That stuff is ok to do on Kodiak or the peninsula where it,s really open country but from the studying of bear kills that I have done over the past 30 years ,,,most of the guides who got mauled by bears , were following bears shot first by 30 caliber rifles .......To me it,s stupid to use an inadequate rifle , when an adequete caliber works every bit as well for the lesser tasks ...........



Sorry gumboot I know you love your bigbores. Now in my 29th year in the guiding business I would be one of the guides you refer to in your above post. So far I haven't expirianced the need to back up hunters using a .300 any more often than any of the rest of them.
I would say that the .300 has been the most common caliber arriving in camp over the years fallowed closly by .338's and .375's.

quote:

Originally posted by Akshooter:
originally posted by gumboot458

quote:

.......... ..........I know of more bears needing to be killed with larger caliber and or other rifles .when shot with the 30 cals. than any thing larger ...........`Just can,t see any reason every one keeps defending a caliber that normally causes the guide or hunting companion to have to shoot the bear also to kill it .............How can anyone who usually has to take the dead bear pics in the thick brush because that is where the bear ran after being hit by a GREAT 30 cal. ....Most bears are first shot in the open ..........The 2 Big bears pictured in the big bear Pics thread were both shot in the open with fast 30 calibers ......1 was killed with a 458 and the other , from what was posted ran into an alder slide ........That stuff is ok to do on Kodiak or the peninsula where it,s really open country but from the studying of bear kills that I have done over the past 30 years ,,,most of the guides who got mauled by bears , were following bears shot first by 30 caliber rifles .......To me it,s stupid to use an inadequate rifle , when an adequete caliber works every bit as well for the lesser tasks ...........



Sorry gumboot I know you love your bigbores. Now in my 29th year in the guiding business I would be one of the guides you refer to in your above post. So far I haven't expirianced the need to back up hunters using a .300 any more often than any of the rest of them.
I would say that the .300 has been the most common caliber arriving in camp over the years fallowed closly by .338's and .375's.

............................................................................................................If you hunt in the open country up north ,, where its common to shoot bears @ 300 yards or more ,, sure the 300 mags are common ....But that doesn,t make them good .,.,...................................On another thread on this forum ..A guy from Canada [ their dollar coming up is a boon to hunting up here ],,,,any way ,the guy is basically asking permission to shoot a bear on the ABC Islands with his 300 deer rifle ........F--- That ....The ABC,s are my home and if someone asks , which he did ..I,m going to tell him no way ............... Someone spending 20,000 $ on a hunt can,t buy a proper rifle .???? .... ....There are enough stupid jack asses that live here that wound and leave bears because they are to stoned , drunk, stupid or whimpy to use a 338 , 375 , 416 ect ......I live here , so I hear all the stories and know lots of the participants in these foolish escapades .... ..... I know of 2 brown bear that were lost haveing been shot with 416 caliber rifles and only 2 , out of dozens shot .....I know of more than a dozen lost when shot with the 30 cals........

300 yards?? Who in the hell shoots brown bears out to 300 yards or more? gumboot, not everyone can shoot a big bore with confidence like you can, I'd rather hunt with someone that knows how to shoot a 300 win mag and hit exactly where they are aiming then to be with someone that is carrying a 416 but is scared of the recoil. I can shoot a 375 H&H just fine but I don't know about anything bigger than that.

Fair enouh. I won't argue your expiriances I'm sure they are valid.

If I would have seen so many bears lost with any caliber I would not like it ether.

In 1979 I had a hunter loose a brown bear with a 7mm Rem mag. Due to being young and doumb I managed to jam the barrel of my rifle in the sand and coulden't shoot. That was the only brown bear I've ever lost and plenty of them were taken with a .300. I guess it may have been a long successtion of luck but it dos'nt seem like it to me.

AKshooter, I'm sure it wasnt luck, and I agree with M70nut. I would rather see a guy with a gun hes comfortable with than a finch junkie.

I watched my buddy dump a inland grizz with a 300 at over 200yards. up to that point I couldnt stand the 300wimpy. Grant it, an inland bear is smaller than a coastal but in the right competent hands (notice the keyword: competent), nothing wrong with a 30.

Another hunting partner uses a 44-40 for everything, you want to talk about anemic but hes killed more bears than most of has dreamed of. hell, one year he brought his .222 to bear camp. I've seen alot of good shooters but this 68year old blows my mind the way he shoots. Good is an understatement and a slap in the face for him.

Depends on the person. Some folks I see at rabbit creek, I wouldnt let in the bush with a 155mm howitzer.

.............. ,,,,,,,,,Now Darn it ,,You guys can,t say you have never seen a client shoot a moose in the horn or guts or ham ECT.ECT.ECT. with his 300 ...If you guys have been guideing for long you have probably seen clients shoot at least 3 legs out from under a caribou at less than 150 yards before getting a shot into the chest ...and they had to reload twice to do even that .........DO you know how many people can,t even hit a deer at 100 yrds with a 270 win from a kneeling position .....I don,t say every one should shoot a 416 or 458 ,,,I mean [ OF COURSE THEY SHOULD ] but whats wrong with the 338 or 35 Whelan , 9.3 or 375 s ........................I took a woman deer hunting @ False Island in the fall of 94 ,,,,,,,,,She was the camp cook ,,, All I had for rifles @ the time were the 338 Ruger ,which later became the Spruce King ,My 458 . And I had my 416 Taylor with me , I let her use the 338 ,,., I told her [ Is a nice little rifle , just put the center of the cross hairs on the deers chest and squeeze the trigger..........We drove over to Sitkoh Bay as they were hauling logs over the pass and were keeping the pass plowed .... my goal was to call a buck out of a patch of reprod at the edge of the flats .......She just wanted to get a deer as she lived in Ketchikan and due to her work schedule wasn,t able to go hunting ... .......So were cruiseing down the road and this nice forked horn jumps out and starts running down the road in front of us I knew there was a turn out just ahead of us and as he was too stupid to be spooked I just trailed along slowly after him He got off the road and I had her get out and go around the back of the rig and off the road .............The range was about 80 yards .....The problem was he wouldn,t turn around ....I had 225 gr Winchester Power Points in the rifle .....She was off the road enough to be legal and had good footing ...I tooted the call some but he wouldn,t turn and I could see he was getting antsy so I told her to go ahead and shoot it ...She asked me , where? right between the legs .I said......She was shooting a 24" barreled Ruger 77 MkII RSP with a 3-9 VXII leupold set on 4X ...It took her a sec but , Bango .......The buck hunched up some as it fell , It got it,s feet under it and took off running back down the road the direction it was pointed..I said , wait here I,ll go get it .....I drove up to the turn out and shut the truck off , got out with my 416 and took off down the road following a BIG blood trail about ,,35 yards down the road its entire stomach was in the road about 20 yards beyond that the blood trail stopped .....I had KiAnna , my husky on a leash with me and she looked to the left of the road . The deer, knowing it was in trouble had jumped up on the bank and was about 25 feet away ...He was laying down with his legs under him and was close to death ......I put Ki,s leash under my foot and shot it in the head with the 416 Taylor. 400 gr Barnes Orig ,RN .049 .k jacket @ 2300 fps...Actually I hit the top of the jaw , on purpose ,, the skull plate didn,t break ........Along the way , after the stomach fell out , half the heart and one entire lung were on the road .....I went over and picked it up and carried it to the road .....By then She was there and she was crying a little , but was very happy .....This was her 1st deer , I gave her a hug , left her and KiAnna there and went and got the truck ......From the time she shot and the time I shot it in the head less than a minute elasped ..Pretty normal for a heart shot .. .The left leg was broke at the shoulder joint and around 4-5 lbs of meat were damaged and ruined .. the bullet had just zipped the skin of the left rear leg...I asked her how she felt , , she hadn,t ringed herself , she said getat ...I said You make sure you tell your husband you don,t shoot no little girls 06 ...He had told me he was afraid of the recoil of the 338 .......For a Riggin Slinger he sure acted like a woose .........................One of the reasons she shot it so well is I told her [ very truthfully ]that it was a little rifle and that it wouldn,t kick at all if she held onto it ........And ya know ,,it didn,t .....

Damn, talk about overkill.......

Gumboot, trust me man, I am all for the bigbores but to be honest most folks cant shoot them well. It takes a real gunnut to own one (unless there job requires it). A guy lets say from indiana usually wont own a 40+bore for whitetail, they come up here with there midbores that hopefully they shoot well.

I'm not a guide but my wife is a taxidermist and she shows me all kind of crap thats amazing. Seen quite a few antlers that have been shot, also bears with a dozen bullet holes, etc. I know what your saying, but sometimes for some people size matters and they are not comfortable with the boomers. Why put them in a position for disaster with a bad flinch?