A frend of mine is taking his wife on a 400 mile alaskan conoe trip. My frend bought a marlin 1895 for grizlly defence. He had been practcing with 400 grain factory loads, But was rather impressed with the 350 grain Hornady flatt points I loaded for him. They get 1900 FPS over my chrony (I have the same rifle) My frend is not hunting bears, so this would be close range only in emergency stuff, and although I have never seen him shoot, he is a special forces combat vet, so I don.t think marksmanship is a problem. is this load a good choice or do you have a recomendation. thanks in advance ...tj3006

TJ,
Most times you cannot pick the type of bear that will give you the problem, small or big and it could be a large sow with some big and curious cubs that are pretty rambunctious. Those soft jacketed will work but not my preferred "type" of bullet for grizz. Them bears can take a bullet if hit wrong and the bullet does need to go thru nonetheless. I would opt for a hard cast of 405 grains min. or Kodiak 405 FP Bonded or something heavier. Most work as you put it will be in close so that is a strong consideration to have in mind-help is a long ways away most times even longer with a wife to care for. I would not personally "care" to shoot a deer bullet on a grizz-hope his and her trip fairs well. "load em hard and load em heavy".

I concur. The bullet has to fully penetrate the body of the big bear in order to do any damage. However, there are a couple of other bullets to consider also. 1) The North Fork 350 gr flatpoint soft. 2) Kelye at Belt Mountain, who makes the better pins for SA revolvers, has a 400 gr full metal jacketed flat point going.

Good factory loads for that include those by Garrett and Buffalo Bore.Look for penetration not expansion.

As stated he is not hunting Griz, for defense @ 5'to 50' either load will do fine. If he shoots a bear @ 100yds and claims D.L.P. the troopers will love that .

If it where me I would load the woodleigh 405 gr 45/70 flat point. Thats IMHO the best 45/70 bullet for nasty stuff getting around and it hangs together so well.....like all woodleigh's stuff.

For those with experience , how about buffalo bores 430 grain hard cast at 1925 fps or grizzly ammunition has two that i think would be great loads there 420 gr. WLNGC at 1950fps or there 460gr. WFNGC at 1800fps?

I have settled on the Buffalo Bore 430 hard cast bullets in both mine and my wife's 45-70 bear defense rifles. If a bear gets to you when you use these it won't be because of bullet failure.

I just ordered some of these Belt Mtn "Punch" bullets in 400 gr for my guide gun. I like that word "punch" bullets. Sounds like good bear fodder to me. I also remember reading a long time ago (in the 80's) in Shooting Times how effective a full metal jacket bullet is on bear for penetration. Mix your magazine up with these and a couple of Buffalo Bores or Woodleighs loaded hot, and that's a winning combo you ask me.
choke

Y

I've got a few boxes on order and remember Ol' Rev. Jim Taylor's trick of just a bit of lube with the Belt Mtn. bullets to help with decreasing pressure. Post your results when you have time.

i used a marlin guide gunto kill hundres of buffalos in charge ,or in the water or running etc and a lot of cebues,i fired in it due to the local availability every type of ammo even soft hollow points and it never failed me ,so i think if your friend fired in the order of 50 mts he will kill the bear .the soft hollow points make a disater in buffalos and i dont think the grizzly is harderto put down than a buffalo.juan

Well I beg the differ sir on our tenacious mountain or tundra grizzly and for that matter our "dumb" Alaskan moose. The bullets you choose to use as I have mentioned need to break down the bones or cause such trauma that you can get a second shot off. I personally have seen these bullets kill but not exit and fortunately for me I succeeded. Hardcast is not hard on barrels nor so restrictive as bonded bullets and you can load them a little hotter and gain some fps. They will not break down and most time than not you will never retreive them. Juan these truly are some "tough" teeth and claw critters. Better to be safe than live to regret.

I tend to go with a quality Jacketed bullet like the Kodiak for expantion and penetration on Bears and Elk.Yeah we have some Grizzlies that get nasty now and then and I always have my Guide Gun stoked with 405 Kodiaks maxed out.

Here is a good read on an Alaskan and his choices for Bear.
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=1532&magid=104

I was using the Kodiak way before I read this from a friend of mine in Alaska who shoots alot of Black Bears off his boat.He swears by them on the big Blackies.

Jayco

im totally de accord if yu can use the better jacketed points you can have i only told my experience,with all kind of bullets because sometimes in the areas i hunt you cannot find the rigth bullet.i dindt have experience with grizzlies yet.juan

What are those punch bullets you guys are talking about? I see that grizzly ammunition is selling in 45/70 a box of 20 405 grain punch bullets at 2050fps for $90.00 a box.

Yep, "Punch" is a catchy name, isn't it? Looks like Kelye has been busy for Grizzly to get enough bullets in to load up a bunch. Jim Taylor (sixguns) and Paco Kelly (leverguns) had tested some of first samples a few years ago. I guess I'll have to go to the site and check what their specs are.

If the weapon is just for self defense why not use a 3" 12 ga slug ...is there any better close range(<20yds)weapon/ammo produced ?
also he could take along some #5 or 6 shot an kill ptarmagin for dinner.

I wanted to add that I just came back here to Pa after spending the spring on my son's trawler cooking and hobbleing around deck with my leg in a cast. He, (Jack Murphy) guides for all the coastal animals out of Cordova and for his normal backup rifle he totes a 458Win Mag,but for wounded bear in brush he carries a custom made 10 ga. dbland handloaded slugs.

I just did a quick search for licensed guides in GMU 6 (the area around Cordova and Prince William Sound), there's no Jack Murphy listed?

http://www.commerce.state.ak.us/occ/apps/GuiUseReg.cfm

mother's name/step son (Wood)

A grizzly just killed a couple in the Arctic National Widlife Refuge. They were on a rafting trip on the Hulahula river .They found an unused gun and found and killed the bear. http://www.kodiakdailymirror.com/?pid=18&path=A/AK_BEAR_ATTACK

quote:

Originally posted by wynwood:
mother's name/step son (Wood)

I know Wayne Woods very well, is this whom you are referring?

I once saw one run down an kill a 6mth old calf moose, it was so quick covering 25 yds and went from a dead run to swatting the calf across the shoulders then biteing it in the neck so damm fast I could hardly believe what I saw. Especially as I'd been watching thar same bear lumber over the tundra thru my spotting scope thinking the old boy was having a pretty hard time getting around. incredible animals that deserve admiration an respect.

wynwood,
my wife and I were boating way up into the Brooks Range early fall. couple of hundred yards away and up a 12ft. cut bank full of bushes and trees this huge chocolate grizz spotted us,stood up and came charging down that cutbank an thru those bushes that would take a man an easy 5-10 minutes to get thru he did it in seconds. came busting thru and out on the gravel bar and realized his mistake, we were not dinner food as he thought and wow he took off like is rearend was on fire. it was on Alaska new channels of the incident of the couple that was preyed on-sometimes with my wife I would also opt for my Lab to be with us.good reason why-best gun in the world does not beat a good set of senses.

DPhilips, no I do not know a Wayne Woods, Jackie is my 2nd wife's son from her first marriage. Wyn

I can't find his name as a licensed guide in GMU 6 or 13 around (or north of) Cordova. That was the reason for the questions. Wayne is the only Wood or Woods licensed for that area. No Murphys, either.

don't quote me on this but I think it is 9 an he reg in winter of 05
why do you ask

he lives in Cordova but doesn't guiide out of there

I'm in Cordova a lot, and do some work for one of the large landowners nearby. We try to keep track of the fellows guiding and outfitting for opportunities.

Looks like he's guiding out near where member 458 Win (Phil Shoemaker) guides in Unit 9. Lists his addy as Oklahoma?

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Jones:
A frend of mine is taking his wife on a 400 mile alaskan conoe trip. My frend bought a marlin 1895 for grizlly defence. He had been practcing with 400 grain factory loads, But was rather impressed with the 350 grain Hornady flatt points I loaded for him. They get 1900 FPS over my chrony (I have the same rifle) My frend is not hunting bears, so this would be close range only in emergency stuff, and although I have never seen him shoot, he is a special forces combat vet, so I don.t think marksmanship is a problem. is this load a good choice or do you have a recomendation. thanks in advance ...tj3006

For the longest time i used a S/S Reminton 10 Ga
for Brown Bear ..

If the 45/70 is what your plianing on using in the brush in AK. Then you might want to think about learning to shoot it be for running off for the deap woods looking for a brown bear
you just might wind up like i did on my first
brown bear. and that was 3 round from a 10Ga
not somthing i want to try ever again and at that range had i not had the sence to reload fast i would be just another pile of shit in the wood's.

All the talk in the world is cheap unless you have been close up to a really ticed off brown bear and i dont mean little brown's i mean 800+
Lbs bears. you had better use that 5 to 10 sec/s well my friend.. becouse if you dont you gone.

Try using a 400 grain custom made soild copper bullet for the first shot backed up by 3 or 4 400 grain jacketed flat nosed bullets and one hollow cavity for the last shot.

Me i dont go out anymore looking for trouble
trouble=Brown Bear and there ant a man alive thats shoot a 1000+Lb browny that dont think its a DGA

Dphilips: rents in Cordova or just ouside of it has a home/family in Oklahoma. i'll look you up sometime. wyn

I would load up some cast performance 460gr or crater 550gr bullets for these big bears.

quote:

Originally posted by tsturm:
As stated he is not hunting Griz, for defense @ 5'to 50' either load will do fine. If he shoots a bear @ 100yds and claims D.L.P. the troopers will love that .

How would the troopers know how far off the bear was when shot?

500: A few years again I took a certification course so that I could legally set out bait stations for black bears. The course is taught by ADF&G and Alaska State Troopers (who are game wardens up here). Part of the course did deal with "Defense of Life and Property" and what that actually meant. Every year there are plenty of residents and non-resisents that get caught shooting game (including bears) illegaly...thinking that they have it figured out. Basically, it is all physical evidence and frequently the "scene of the event" turns into a "crime scene." If you kill a bear (brown or otherwise) out of season or without a license..you will have a lot of explaining to do and your story better match up with what the officials see in the field...A bear is not a genuine threat at a 100 yards, but at 50 yards with a shot under the chin, and cubs and or food cache present, maybe...Troopers can tell how far off a bear is shot the same whay they can tell how far off a human is shot...look a the gun and bullet and the wound(s). You not only have to prove that the bear was guilty, you have to prove that you are innocent as well. Usually it is pretty clear cut..if the bear is killed at 20 yards in your camp, your ok. If you shoot it protecting your dead moose, your screwed. It is basic police detective type stuff and knowing what the rules are. I rarely hunt anything unless I am allowed to have a bear tag, which solves the problem. But the question you ask is usually the thing that gets people in trouble.