Of the experienced black bear or brown bear hunters out there, who has information on the size of bear skulls. I know that there are some huge black bear skulls out there. I also know that record book brown bears are up at or near 30 inches. The bear I just shot was measured green at 23 14/16 inches by the ADF&G sealing station in Douglas. I also know that my bear is not that big as far as brown bears go...it is a mature boar, but I am interested in where it falls under the bell curve. I bet it is right under the middle of the curve.

Thank you for the input.

No, it's probably more like right about average. Everybody, including me wants a record book skull. But there isn't many to be had.

The minimum for Grizzlies is 24" squared. I think the minimum for Brown Bears is 26". Not sure about that though. And remember that any bear that makes the book, even if it's the minimum, is an exceptional bear.

Either way, you have a Brown Bear, and not many folks can say that. I've shot 2 Grizzlies, and even though they aren't book bears, I had a blast on both hunts and will remember them all my life. My last bear hunt ranks as one of my greatest hunts of my life.

Treasure the hunt, and if you get a book bear, all the better. If not, maybe next time.

Brown Bear minimum is 28".

Thanks, I was looking for my Boone&Crockett book, but it's not in it's normal position, sitting on the back of the toilet!

Maybe I mis-stated what I wanted to ask above...what I wanted to know is the average size of brown bear skulls that are killed. I was not (and am not) interested in B&C scores, minimum or otherwise.

I was not asking what score a skull needs to meet to be recorded in B&C.

My taxidermist told me today that there is one measurement for grizzlies (say 24") and another measurement for brown bears (28") for record book entry. And the way you tell a grizzly from a brown bear is based on where the bear is hunted and killed and not what it looks like. My taxidermist was fleshing a new 'brown bear' hide today when I went into his shop and he said because it was killed near Kotzebue the skull would be classified as a grizzly instead of a brown bear...the Kotzebue bear I looked at today looked exactly like mine and squared right at eight feet.

What I wanted to know is where my bear's skull fell under the bell curve reflecting all brown bears killed...The ADF&G has published data that say the average brown/grizzly bear shot in Alaska squares at 7.5 feet, and I am pretty sure they do not distinguish between coastal brown bears and grizzly bears. So what I am looking for is information on the skull size of brown bears that square at 7.5 feet.

Thank you.

Call your local A.D.F.& G. Biologist they have all that info. at there disposal.

I think I said it's about average, that means it's about an average size Brown Bear skull.

A 24" Bear skull is a good size bear, whether it's a Brown Bear or not.

JBabcock: I must have misunderstood what you said.

I apologize for misunderstanding what you said.

No problem, the average could also be about 25". What I was trying to impress to you though is that any Brown/Grizzly Bear is a trophy. Skull size, whether average, below average, or above is not the most important thing.

They are majestic creatures, and while I would never hunt them, the most fun I've had bear hunting was watching 2 cubs drive their mother nuts while she was digging for some grubs. It was hilarious.

I have two Bear rugs on the wall, and every time I look at them it brings back memories of those hunts.

We all go out wanting to get the "10 foot" Brown Bear, or the "8 foot" Grizzlie, but the reality is that those bears are giants, and they are few and far between. Usually, not always, it typically takes a big bear to get a big skull. So most of us end up shooting "average" bears.

But they are still trophies, and the guy who hunts whitetail every year down in South Carolina, or Texas, and dreams of some day hunting the Greatland, would give anything to do what you just did.

Robert:
I'll try to post some pics of different skulls for comparison.


The largest measured 27 13/16". Squared at 10'5".

TJ: That is a huge bear. The skull off any adult bear is truely impressive. A 10 foot brown bear is staggering...just getting the hide to the boat or plane or whatever would have to be a story in itself. Where did you get your bears?

Nice photo.

JBabcock: You are right about any brown bear being a trophy, no matter what its skull size. I probably made a mistake by thinking about the skull measurement taken by the ADF&G...the size of the skull in no way expresses the value of the bear to me or the genuine excitement of the hunt.

Here is a pic of the bear whos skull is on the top right. He was 9'6". Pretty color. I took all these Bears on the West side of Cooks Inlet.

Here is the big bear. Terrible color.

Here is a pic of the bear on the lower right. 21". I'd say that was average to a little below average for this area. I didn't want to shoot him but he was eating my moose! The small Black Bear was eating my tent!

TJ: Thank you for posting the photos. These bears are so beautiful...and that is a great photo of you and (your?) dog with a beautiful specimen. The black fur mixed with lighter colors and a little grizzle on the main is simply stunning.

Your big bear is simply huge.

It is fun. I have heard that there are a lot bears over there.

I did find a report that included skull sizes on SE bears. They collect data by hunting units (1 through 5 [some of these units have no huntable populations of Brown bear]), but basically they report the average skull size for these brown bear is 23 inches +/- 0.5 inches.

I will be hunting brown bear in Unit 18 in September and I can hardly wait.

Thank you for posting the photos.

Robert:
This one not only stole a moose quarter from our meat house, he had the audacity to get into our liquor supply!

HA! That is a great photograph....In the other photos you look like a good happy Alaskan too! These buggers trying to eat our moose and booze, what do they think they are doing?! The photo of the last bear is a big old bear too...he has a long muzzle. Is he drinking an MGD? Great photos!

From my experience most, if not all, Brown Bear skulls under 24 inches are sub-adult bears. That said I think I have seen figgures from F&G that the "average" skull is around 24". Selective guides and hunters can raise that. I know my average from the past twenty years is a little over 26 inches as per AK F&G records.
Contrary to popular belief - and the reason the record books use skull size - is that there is a direct correlation to skull size and bear size. Naturally there are exceptions but even they fall within reasonable bounds. when someone tell you they killed a "ten foot" bear with a 25 inch skull they forgot to divide the hide width and length by two after adding. If a hundred Brown Bears and a degree in Wildlife has taught me anything it is that it takes pretty close to the 28 inch B&C minimum to make an honest ten foot bear.

Phil: It is good to hear from you...While I was and am thrilled with the bear I shot (green scored at 23 14/16th inches), all of us did guess that it was not an old bear...the difference between my bear and my partners bear was obvious: his bear had an ear missing, its teeth were broken, toes (claws) were missing, and he had other scars...and he was physically bigger. When I look at models of aging bears...mostly the relation of the size of the head to the body, I see that the bear I shot was on the younger side. He was probably on the boundary between being a mature boar and not. I accept that. If I can shoot a bear with a 27" skull, I would be thrilled. Until then I will settle for what I can find.

As far as skull size and body size goes, my bear squared just under 8', my partners bear squared right at 8' and his skull also measured 23 14/16ths" inches, and a bear shot recently near Juneau squared 9'6" with a skull meassuring 23 and 13/16th inches...to me that sounds like a lot variation in body size with respect to skull size. ADF&G reports that for GMU 1 and 5, the average skull size for boars is 23 inches +-0.5 inches.

Robert, I think your guess on your bear is pretty much correct. I also need to clarify my post by saying that I was only discussing bears on the peninsula and the Kodiak area as they tend to grow a bit larger. It is entirely possible to have an older bear from the SE with a bit smaller skull but hide and body size still correspond within the same range reguarding skull size. Glad you looked up F&G averages. they can be quite interesting.

Talking about big bears, I came across an article a few years ago, and I can't find it now, or remember what magazine I saw it in, about an extremely large bear that was killed at Port Heiden, I believe, maybe fifty or more years ago by some doctor, the bear was measured but never entered into the record books, for some reason. Photos were extant, supposedly, somewhere, but the article didn't say where.

The bear was supposed to have had a 34" skull, was judged by the Federal Fish and Wildlife people, (Alaska was a territory then) as weighing 2500 Lbs and the hide squared I can't remember how many feet, but dwarfed any thing else I ever heard of.

Talking to Jim Brooks who darted, measured, weighed and tagged Polar bears back in those days, and he told me one bear that was at least 25 percent larger and heavier than the rest of the biggest of the big. Freakishly huge.

I was in my teens then but I seem to remember something about it, maybe having read about it in the old Alaska Sportsman Magazine.
Wayne

Walex, Stories like this pop up occationally but usually are like the "twelve foot man eating bear" story circulating last year on sites like this. Pure fiction. Why doesn't F&G know about it - or where is the skull now? According to AK F&G, who have been keeping record on the peninsula and Kodiak for well over forty years, the largest skulled bear taken on the peninsula was 30 1/2" Three of that size are recorded. One of my hunters, Larry Johnson, killed the third one in Oct of 1999.
But freaks do happen. I sure would like to know the real story.

Phil, this was back when Alaska was a territory, before there was an AFD&G, so I think one would have to look at Federal records and they were poor. Also, the State Fish and game, which only came into being in 1958, I am finding out , in conversations with biologists, didn't really get up to speed for a few years and theres quite a gap in good records for a few years.

Wasn't there a new huge whitetail record set by 40-50 yr old set of antlers that had been laying around an attic or garage, a while back.

Also, a huge freak bear could live out his entire life and never be seen back then. And if he was, the word would never have gotten past the boundaries of the village.

Even I, in this day of TV, internet, sat phones, instamatic communication, have a hard time remembering just how primitive communication was back then, and how isolated we were here in Alaska.

Jim Brooks, is still real sharp, and if the polar bear they darted on the ice near Wrangell Island, 25 percent bigger in all measurements than the biggest of the big, out of hundreds of bears, was a brown bear, and that much bigger than the biggest, what would you have?

We,ve had plenty of people, that were way beyond the norm, the Mongolian Giant, at least 8 1/2 feet tall, we've all seen Andre the Giant wrestler

So who knows, When ever some one tells me there's no record of maneating wolves, I think well most of those people were frontiersmen and Indians, natives, hunters and trappers who couldn't write and leave records anyway, and the lone hunter who was killed couldn't tell the tale, that goes without saying. WAYNE

PS 458 win

Isn't the reason they use skull measurement, instead of hide measurement, because there is no way possible to get an accurate measurement on the skin?

Also, we keep hearing that some bears in different areas have larger skulls and smaller bodies, and vice-versa, and skull size and body size don't correlate well even in the same area.

But since they don't have horns, the only hard and concrete thing there is to measure is the skull.

Another thing, you can't compare animal size in the last 40 years, because of the tremendous increase in hunting pressure and cropping of trophy animals with animal size of the pre 1950's. The airplane, modern transpotation, communications, and very importntly, affluence, has made the kind of hunting you do relatively easy, compared to the era before that, and has made almost every area of the earth accessible to hunters, all looking for the biggest critters.

PS again, I really think that old Rustoleum 458 is cool.
wayne

walex, your are right that there are always a few anomolies but there are even more tall tales and outright fabrications. I was at the Palmer gun show a while back and heard some "full of himself" asst guide talking to a friend and claiming they had killed a 13 foot bear. Biologically bears today are no different than in the past and even in zoos well pampered bears don't live much past 40 years old. In fact how big was the movie bear Bart? I have taken bears over thirty years old, as have a few other hunters. While skulls bears do continue to grow as they age they dramatically slow down in older bears.
As for areas producing large bears with little skulls and smaller bears with big skulls - I have found that it's most likely the long time honest guide killing the "small" bears with big skulls and the wanna be's or high volumn guides taking the large bears with small skulls. Often from the same area !!!

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
walex, your are right that there are always a few anomolies but there are even more tall tales and outright fabrications. I was at the Palmer gun show a while back and heard some "full of himself" asst guide talking to a friend and claiming they had killed a 13 foot bear. Biologically bears today are no different than in the past and even in zoos well pampered bears don't live much past 40 years old. In fact how big was the movie bear Bart? I have taken bears over thirty years old, as have a few other hunters. While skulls bears do continue to grow as they age they dramatically slow down in older bears.
As for areas producing large bears with little skulls and smaller bears with big skulls - I have found that it's most likely the long time honest guide killing the "small" bears with big skulls and the wanna be's or high volumn guides taking the large bears with small skulls. Often from the same area !!!

As for the super size polar bear my theory - and it's just a theory - is that most big male bears roam the ice pack far from land and are most likely never seen by humans while Brown bear habitat is more accessable. I began loking at my library on bears and found one comment about six, 2000 pound polar bears being actually weighed on board ships. this was considerably larger than any other recorded ADF&G weights and might account for some extra large bears being out there.

What I'm saying is that with the advent of the airplane, and all those skillful young pilots that came to Alaska after WW2 all those far ice fields, and those remote inacessible brown and polar bear habitats became very accesible, as American hunters became affluent enough to go to the ends of the earth and hunt trophy animals, The chances of the would-have-been really big bears to grow to their full potential, had to been seriously diminished in the last 50 years.

The article I remembered didn't sound like it came from some loudmouth, it seemed quite matter of fact, and it did mention that for some reason the bear never got entered into the record books, but that pictures were extant. If they still exist it would be nice to find out where. They were specific about the area, Port Heiden, also.

Also I don't understand why you keep talking about ADF&G records. Alaska didn't become a state until 1958 and I was talking about a time before that event. The Jim Brooks I know here in Juneau was working and flying for the Federal fish and Wildlife Service before Statehood. He told me they about as far from land as one can get. He flew over Wrangell Island, Russian territory, even.

Back in the time I'm talking about, they did not have the equipment to get into the country that you hunt, with the relative ease that you access it today. So there could have been huge bigger than the wolrd record, bears lived and died ,or killed by natives and eaten and no record left anywhere. Just because some government official or self-appointed club don't record something doesn't always mean it didn't happen.
Well, 2000 pounds is a lot of bear! Wayne