My nephew who moved to Alaska last April wants to start hunting up there and my sister wants me to pick out a rifle for him. He is 13 right now soon to be 14 and I have let him shoot everything from a 22 to a 375 H&H. He has shot my 7mm STW a lot and says the recoil does not bother him and he seems to be able to hit targets with it. But I still wonder about the recoil since he is not very big yet. I was thinking a 7mm mag or 30/06 would suit him well for recoil and performance. He will be hunting pretty much everything up there including Griz. I will be hand loading ammo for him and when he comes back to visit next month he can take the ammo and the rifle back with him. He does not know about the Rifle he is going to get so I know he is going to be happy. If we get him a 7mm mag I was going to load him some 175gr Partitions. If we get the 30/06 I would load some 200gr Accubonds or 200gr Partitions. What do you guys think? For those that might be wondering what Rifle he is going to get. I am going to pick up the new Rem 700 SPS stainless I have shot two of these and man do they shoot!

No No No. Get him a rifle with CRF for big game.

Of those two cartridges it's a toss up. The 06 holds more shots and shoots bigger, heavier bullets. At close range I would take the Springfield cartridge.

Please people lets not make this into the God Awful CRF VS Push feed debate I have both and their is no difference between the two. You push the bolt forward and the shell goes into the chamber on both actions. I do appreciate the info on the 30/06 though.

Not sure where you live versus him, but could a relative somehow casually take him to a shop and just happen to have him try one out without tipping the surprise that you are putting together for him. they might be able to get an idea of which one feels better to him. Barrel a little longer on the 7. He might think a model 70 (or whatever) feels better fit wise. I dont want to here about CRF vs. PF either. 6 of one for whatever he will be doing.

'06 all the way!!!!!

7mm is a varmint rifle.

MM

I would always take the -06 over the 7mag. I have heard too many horry stories about wounded bears and 7mm mags. I don't know if that is do to poor bullet choice, or overconfidence in the round do to the magnum moniker. Whatever the case, I consider the 7 mag a blacktail deer, caribou and sheep/goat round, but not a moose or grizzly round. The -06 is the all around choice, and if one wants to stretch the range, the 300 win mag is a fine choice as well.

I think the barnes 165 gr triple shock is a good bullet to consider for the smaller critters, and a 180 or 200 gr partition for the larger ones.

hikerbum the reason I was going to get him the Rem is Because when he was here for my wedding last fall I took him over and had him shoulder a bunch of different Rifles and he liked the Rem and the Vanguard the best. He did not like the safety on the Ruger or Winchester and the Savage he did not like how the stock fit. But you did bring up a good point. I will have him try them again and see what he thinks when he gets here. Kids grow pretty fast. I am just going to ask him if he wants to go look at rifles with me and then I will get him what ever he likes the best within in reason. He does have expensive taste on some things he likes my Sako TRG-S in a 300 Win mag and He liked my dad's HS 270 WSM rifle. I dont think that is goign to happen for his first rifle. I see there is another vote for the 30/06.

The 30-06 is much more versatile for Alaska, 150 to 250 grain bullets will do most jobs. The 7mm mag has less cross section, lighter bullets,unnecessary recoil and noise.

Get the 06 for Alaska.

30-06!!!

Without a doubt, the 30-06. Paul H, Hear! Hear! On the Barnes 168 gr. triple shock.

The 30-06 would be a good start. I brought one up here in 1976 then had it rechambered to 300 mag and about 10yrs ago had it rebarreled to 425 express.

This is like comparing apples to oranges. The 7mm is hands down a better caliber. The 175 Nosler Partition will do better than any 180 -220 grain bullet.
All about shot placement,

Scratch

the 7mm's are long range deer guns. Go .30 cal or go home!

They are both recommended by the Alaska Fish & Game for Grizzly. While it is nice that you will be reloading for him, I have never been anywhere that I could not purchase 30-06 over the counter. For a single rifle that can do it all, go with the 30-06.

I think the 30-06 is the best choice. In Alaska I would use 180 or 200 grain premiun bullets.
Also there are the Federal High Energy loads that place the 30-06 right on the heels of the 300 Mag.

Another vote for the plain Jane '06. I personally would load the 180NP or other premium bullet the gun liked. Killing power I don't think is radically in favor of either caliber but for a young shooter the '06 may come in a lighter, shorter barrelled thus handier package.

Regards,

Mark

Any rifle in 30 caliber always benefits by the much larger bullet selection available. Though I used to think that small bullet & high velocity was the best way to go, I've now read enough Elmer Keith and done enough hunting on my own to believe that heavy & slower has an advantage when used against the large and dangerous. However, with today's better bullet construction, I'm not always sure one has to go to the 375s or larger to accomplish this. If this young man can handle a '06 which I feel is better than the 7mm, then why not spice up your present to him and make him the proud owner of a 300 or 325 WSM? With your reloading, you can help him grow into it by selecting powders which might minimize the recoil and why not port the barrel to reduce recoil as well?

30/06 and don't look back. I have many calibers and like them all but I woud not be with out an 06 it will simple do it all and do it well with out excessive recoil

The another vote for the 06' is being able the throw a 220 gr slug (I prefer the Nosler Partition 220 gr.) at 2400 fps. Not too many critters can stand up to that including a few bears I've taken with the 220 gr Nosler Partition in the 06'.

I've hunted Alaska 5 times, so have some experience. I've also killed game with both.

Definitely go with the 30-06, 180 grain Nosler Partitions, Winchester Featherlight. If I had to, I'd hunt the world with that rifle, but I don't, so I have a 338 Win Mag.

Go with the 06 and don't look back.

They are indistinguishable in effect on game. Get either one and go huting.

I have been teaching Hunter Safety and 4-H Shooting Sports for 29 years and have made a couple of observations about young shooters that you might want to consider.

The first consideration is the physical size of your nephew. If he is an average 13 year old, the stock on a standard rifle will be too long. The length of pull is usually around 13.5 to 13.75 inches on most rifles from the factory. By the time you put a really good recoil pad on the rifle (Pachmeyer or Kickeez), the LOP will increase to close to 15 inches. This will really effect the ability of a small frame person to properly hold the rifle so that it will not hurt, and so that the eye relief on the scope will be correct. I would suspect that you would need to take an inch or so off of the stock to get a good fit. When my kids started hunting, I bought a couple of used stocks, cut them off to fit their size, put on good recoil pads and the result - outstanding shooting skills, good shot placement, and great success. Keep the original stocks and when the kids grow in stature, put the original stocks back on.

Second observation - Since you will be handloading, load the ammo down so that the recoil will not be as severe. Either caliber will work for your purpose, but you need to tone down the recoil until they build their skills, especially trigger control. Of the two calibers, I would select the 30-06. Here's the reason - if you look at the energy peak for the the two calibers, the 7mm will peak faster which results in a sharper and quicker recoil. This equates into more felt recoil and that is detrimental to a young or new shooter. Whichever you choose, reduce the loads down and have him work on accuracy. Shot placement is always the key to success. When you take your nephew out to the range, have him shoot just a few rounds, so that he doesn't go home hurting. Once a flinch is developed in the subconscious, it is very difficult to train out of a person. And remember, it always hurts more when you shoot from the bench. Sometimes it is better to have a new shooter shoot from field positions.

You are to be complimented for getting him started hunting. Keeping kids involved is the preservation of our sport and our rights.

Best of luck

SD Shooter

dakor,
Another vote for the 30-06. I'm also a fan of the 7mm, but given the age of your nephew and the flexibility of the 06, I think it makes the most sense at this time for him. Besides, when he gets a little older, he can buy the 7 mag or step up to the 300 or 338 mags. I echo SD Shooter in commending you for helping our sport by introducing your nephew into it as well.

zim698

You have a very complex question
First of all to start with the shooter is very young and unless he is a fairly built individual exposing them to Magnum recoil to early can cause some poor shooting habits which may effect him the rest of his life
second, with shooting technique in mind now throwing Big Bears in the mix is a receipe for disater, as most people will attest there ain't a big enough gun made to deal with a bear on his terms, granted the 30-06 in the hands a competent hunter and marksman with the proper bullets should normally handle most encounters but I would prefer a real stopper if at all possible
Now the 30-06 are generally lighter rifles shorter actions shorter barrels and easier to handle and less recoil, 7mm is a fine caliber but I would prefer the the 30 caliber since I could pump some heavier bullets up and including 220 grainers, penetration penetration is the name of the game with large animals
Todays premium bullets have definitely inproved all calibers
You say you have let the boy shoot the larger guns, can he hit a target at 200 yards offhand with them??, I would much rather hit a bear that I believe is coming from me at 100 yards with a 30 caliber than miss him with something bigger.
Remember flinching is hard to overcome once it has started
All being said, IMHO, I would opt for the 30-06, general hunting with lighter premium bullets to hold down recoil and several heavy premium bullets either in the magazine or pocket for those encounters
good luck

Thanks for all the replies everyone there has been some good info that is for sure. I have let him shoot my Savage 7mm STW from the bench and off hand. With that rifle he can hit pop cans at 75 yards of hand pretty consitant. Last time he shot it he went 6 out of ten shots which is really good for a kid. That was with a 160gr full tilt load. That rifle weighs 10 lbs with a scope. I feel he would be better off with a 8 to 9lbs rifle scoped of course. He says recoil does not bother him. To be honest he says he wants a 300 Win Mag if you can believe that. As for his size he has grown since last fall right now I think my sister said he is 5'8 and 135 to 140 lbs. I think he is going to be over the 6 ft mark someday for sure. I think a 30/06 with 200gr bullets would suit his needs. I do not think he would be shooting past 200 yards very much. I have let him shoot water jugs at 200 yards with a couple of rifles and he is pretty deadly with a good rest. I do have a couple of old wood Rem 700 stocks so if he wants a REM 700 and it is to long I could cut one of those down to fit him. I would also glass bed it free float the barrel and put a Limb Saver pad on it. As for bullet I am thinking the 200 Accubond and if he does go for Grizz or Brown Bear I will also have a load of 220 Partitions for him. For a scope I was looking at the Leupold VX-II 4-12x40. I have one on my 375 H&H and it has a nice long eye relief almost 5inches so he would not have to crowd the rifle to see through the scope. I think I am more excited then he is about getting him a rifle. Thanks again guys!!!

While I would be loathe to start a youth off with a 300 win mag (not knowing how much shooting he's done, and what his recoil tollerance is), it would be my choice for one gun for Alaska for all species.

The advantage of a big gun is it can be loaded down to any level you want. I've been testing blue dot loads in the .308, and have it loaded down milder than a 30/30, and the accuracy is as good and sometimes better then the best full patch loads. I would never expect a 165 gr at less than 2000 fps to make a one hole group with a case more empty then full of powder, but the target doesn't lie.

The 4X12 scope is too much IMHO. I'd look at a 2-7 for a variable, or the cult classic Leupy 6X42 fixed, or the 4X, or the 2.5X. I'm able to shoot sub moa with my 2.5X compact leupy on my 350 Rigby, so high magnification isn't all it's cracked up to be, and FOV is important for close up shooting. Fixed scopes can't be set wrong, and if the animal is too far, you can't crank up the magnification to make it look close enough to take the shot.

Paul H I was thinking the same about the 300 Win I could down load it to a 30/06 or I could even have him get a 300 WSM. The problem is when you get to bullets over 165gr the 300 Win has some good recoil no matter how much you down load it. To be honest I think he could handle the 300 Win just because of the simple fact he has never been told recoil will hurt you. I think recoil for the most part is in peoples head. I have not shot a 30/06 for long time but the rifle I did shoot it in with 180's did kick pretty good from what I remember. I suppose I could let him get what he wants and just keep the bullets at the 165gr range and load them around 3000FPS. I know some will say a 165gr bullet might be to light for the real big stuff but if I use a Barnes TSX that will hold almost its weight I think it would work fine. I will probably let him shoot what I have when he comes back for a few days and see how he handles it. I have a range in my back yard so I can setup the rifle pretty fast once we decide what to get him. I was even looking around for a 35 Whelen for him but I have no idea what the recoil would be with that because I have never shot one.

I lived and hunted in Alaska all my life. I started at the age of 12 with a 8mm mag, and flinch because of it. I now shoot a .375 ultra. I bought a .300 WSM made by Tikka for sheep hunting. It is a very light rifle. My 12 year old daughter shot her first bear with it using 180 TBBC and then shot her first caribou with it this spring. She says it does not kick and really shoots it well. The .300 WSM will do well for every animal up here. I would look at a 3x9x40 for the rifle. I would bet most people up here have a similar power scope. I am a firm believer in Leupold, so that is what I use.

Sounds like whatever choice you make, it will be a good one.

The 300 WSM is also a fine choice, but in a light rifle, which is why one would choose it, I'm sure it will have a hearty jab. You are incrementally getting into noteable recoil, both by reducing rifle weight and increasing power by choosing the 300 WSM over the 30-06. I would definately have him shoot one before buying him one.

I had a 35 whelen ackley before re-chambering it to a 350 Rigby. It definately has more recoil then a 300 win mag, though the 300 win mag recoil is sharper. I would not choose the 35 whelen because factory ammo is limited in choice and availability. You don't know that you'll always be handloading for him, nor that he'll take up handloading. In that case, I would stick with a standard common chambering.

If you want more then a 30 caliber, then the 338 win mag is the logical choice, but I can't in good conscience see starting anyone out with a 338 for their first rifle.

I agree to a point that recoil is more in folks head then in reality, ie folks can generally handle more recoil then they think they can, and if they don't know it's supposed to be a big bag kicker, they shoot it with no problem. That said, I have a 458 Lott and a 500 Jeffrey, and their recoil is just as big and bad as folks say it is, though it can be handled.

If a new shooter is properly coached, and have a gun that fits them well, then they will be able to handle most centerfire hunting cartridges with no problem.

I wouldn't hesitate to hunt any Alaskan game with a 30 caliber 168 triple shock from a .308, 30-06 or 300 magnum. It wouldn't be my first choice for the biggest moose and bear, but I have no doubt it would kill them plenty dead with proper shot placement.

quote:

Dakor
Limb Saver pad

I hunt in Kansas I used to own a Rem 30-06 sold it bought a Win 7rem mag sold it bought a Rem 300 win mag with a Limb Saver pad. Since you reload I would get him the 300 win mag cut a used stock down and put a Limb Saver pad on it. This way when he gets older he will still have enough power for Big Game and a gun he is used to. Getting used to the feel of one rifle and sticking with it in my opinion will help his confidence and with plenty of practice his markmanship skills.

But I would not start him with heavy bullets and max a charge like others have already stated if he ever gets the flinch started it is hard to break.

Good luck and have fun hunting. I wish I could hunt something larger than white tails but at least I get to hunt with my father and friends.

Alaska calls for .30 cal and better.

.30-06 would be my choice.

great factory ammo that i have used since 1998 is federal premium high energy. kills critters dead, with good shot placement. with this ammo this cal is almost at mag velocities anyway, .300 h.& h.

your own recipe in a 200 gr. n.p. loaded hot will work fine as well.

.06 can do everthing a 7 m.m. can do and more, especially up there.

30-06 is the way to go!! I have a friend in PA that may disagree with me but I've used my 30-06 from Alaska to Africa and alot of places in between and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

dakor:

This may have already been suggested, but Remington offers youth's model rifles in both .30-06 and .308 Win and they also sell reduced loads for youths or other folks that have problems with recoil...as has been discussed here, since you reload you sould be able to construct good bullets that are suitable for the boy to shoot.

I was looking at these youth models for my niece and nephew, for the purposes of hunting caribou, the instant my brother (and their mother) will allow it. When they get older, they can get a bigger gun that would handle bigger more serious animals. With adult supervision I think deer, black bear and caribou are achievable hunt species for any youth that can safey and accurately operate a gun that can shoot a 180 bullet. I like the looks of the Remington youths model SPS rifle.

The only thing I did not like about the youth is how light it felt. The nice thing is Remingtons now come with the Limb Saver pad on them and that pad does help a lot. I think I will have him shoot my 300 Win when he comes back and my dad just bought A SPS 700 in a 300 Win so he can shoot that also. That way if he likes it, it should be a slam dunk. I also figured out on a recoil chart if I take a 180 grain bullet in a 9lbs rifle and load it to 2900 fps in A 300 Win it will only have 3lbs more recoil than a 30/06 in the same gun weight with a full tilt load with a 180gr. I think he will be alright if he does not seem to shoot it well I will drop it down to 2800FPS or drop to a 165 partition. Nice thing is he can shoot 300 Win for awhile since he is going to be here for a couple of weeks. If it ends up being to big then he will get a 30/06. Thanks again guys for all the info!!!

quote:

Originally posted by MuskegMan:
'06 all the way!!!!!

7mm is a varmint rifle.

MM

Agree. My 7mm varmint rifle likes big varmints too, though; just ask the bear I shot in your neck of the woods a couple years ago.

I really don't see the difference in killing power btweent he 2 cartridges.

I have used both, and both have worked well.



A couple of years ago, this coastal grizzly died form a sngle, well placed (throught he shoulders) shot from a 7RM with a 160gr X bulet I handloaded.

There would have been no diference with a 30-06, properly loaded.

Neither the 30-06 or the 7RM is a "stopping gun" in the event of a grizz charge, a bullet inthe rigt place (CNS) is far more important than 30-06 vs 7RM.

There is virtually no difference in thier ability to kill..

I've killed alot of stuff with a 7RM, and afew things with a 30-06. I have not seen any difference, except the 7RM is a bit flatter.

I'd pick 7RM, simply becasue I like it more.

I see that your 7RM likes varmints too. Nice. Looks like a real whopper!

Take a look here and see what the Alaska Dept. of Fish and Game recommends.
http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/hunt_trap/hunting/huntak/huntak7.cfm?

Robin