I used to live in a Native village (Port Graham) on the Kenai Peninsuala about a 25 minute flight south of Homer. They only had black bears there. I'd say that the average male was about 300lbs. I saw ones that were in the 400+ lb range now and then. (This is all Native land and non-huntable without the native corporation permission). I carried a .357 magnum (Taurus - stainless 4" barrell gas compensated) with 158 gr. handloaded bullets for my fishing protection. My primary protection was using my head of course. Do you guys think that .357 with a 158 gr. bullet (hot load) would be adequate to stop a 300-400 lb black bear? (I feel very comfortable and accurate shooting the gun) I was just curious if you guys had any field experience or thoughts of the need to carry something bigger. Thanks for your time.

I,ve had quite a number of different caliber handguns in my adrenilin sweaty hand in bear encounters ,357 mag up thru 480 Ruger ...I,ve had bears get awfully close ,but never has one touched me yet.....I,ve never shot a bear with a 357....Several of those times I,m sure I would have been mauled without the presence of and the confidence haveing a pistol gave me........The same with my wife when a bear walked up on her and our dog..... Her 357 gave her the confidence to stand her ground....Plenty of bears have been killed with a 357 mag.....I sure don,t consider it adeqeut but its everything as compared to NOTHING.......A friend in Sitka was asking me the same question as he knows I have packed a 480 since the first year they came out......Knowing him ,I told him I would not recomend that caliber for him to use alone as brown bear defense..........If I had to recomend anything it would be a 500 S&W with 400-440 gr bullets,at full factory velocity......Anything is better than nothing but the biggest is hopefully adequet ..Have a good day ..gb

A very good Question. It's going to be interesting to see what the the responce will be.
I hope .458 replies here .He wrote a very good article in a shooting magazine. As I recall his daughter carried a hand me down .357 while fishing down on the AK penninsula.
The objective was 1. when your at 5 yards or less and you need to put a bullet in the bear's head the.357 would do that just as well as anything.
No the .357 won't be effective in breaking down body parts like a high powered rifle but when the bear has your foot in his mouth a head shot is pritty close.
The main objective here is for the handgun to give you the confidence while you face the bruin on the fishing stream. Bear encounters rarely result in problems other than the occational stolen fish. What you want when you come face to face with a bear on a fishing stream is the confidance to be calm and handle the situation by stepping aside on the trail and letting the bear walk by without running away from him.
When I'm not guideing bear hunters in the spring and fall I take a few groups of bear photogaphers where we spend hours on end with bears at close range. Do I carry a .357? heck no.
I carry ether my F.A..454 casull or my redhawk .45 colt. The .45 is loaded with a hard cast 375gr wfn that's loaded so far beyond sammi spec that even the big bore boys would call me crazy.
You can't get around the fact that a high powered rifle is the best thing to have when things go south with a bear on a fishing stream but I've seen it to many times that the rifle gets to heavey or cumbersom while your trying to work a fly rod and you set it down on the beach.
keeping in mind that your only dealing with black bears and assuming that you don't have a .44 my vote is yes your good with the .357
Let me go on record that I am not a proponent of shotguns for bear protection.

I've lived for over three years in the bush between Eagle and Circle.That was back in the 70's.

I agree with the previous poster about shotguns and bear defense.

Concerning pistols,there is not one that I would trust to stop a large bear charge with a body hit.But with a brain hit,it's another matter.Full steam loads with hard non-expanding bullets directed to the brain will make your 357 mag do as well as any.

I have been around black bears quite a bit. I have no experience with grizzly.

For me the 357 with the right bullet is the minimum that I feel comfortable with. I carry a 7 shot S&W 686 with handloads. I can put all seven as fast as you can pull the trigger in a baseball size group at 10 yards. I can also hit pie plate accuracy out to 50 yards.

I carry this gun whlie baiting up in Maine. I agree with the experts that say that a shotgun is the best defence. That is GOOD SLUGS, not buckshot. I base this on bears I have seen shot by clients over bait. The shotgun slug kills the best and leaves more margin for error. It also leaves a nice hole for tracking purposes. HOWEVER I can't haul a shotgun when baiting, just like having a shotgun isn't pratical while fishing.

If I have to find a wounded bear I take my Marlin Guide gun with a sure fire flashlight mounted on the front. I would like to add that the only time I have been threatned by a bear is when I came in to baits and a mom and cubs were around. I have been bluff charged a few times, nothing more serious. All the wounded bears I have followed have run away if they could and have never gotten ugly. However I am ready for the first one that does turn on me.

I trust my 357, knowing full well that it isn't the ideal tool to defend against a angry bear. However I feel better having it and my skills than having to resort to a rubber boot.

Our Pennsylvania black bears get twice as big as those where you are. I didn't trust my S&W 586 .357mag could do the job. Plus it's heavy for carrying all day. I bought a Taurus Totally Titanium snubby in .45 Colt. I used to load it with hardcast lead slugs. Recently I switched to Cor-bon 225gr DPX @ 1200fps, 720ft\lbs. If 5 of these can't stop an attack then I deserve to suffer. I have not had any close calls so I can't give firsthand info. I don't know of any handgun with this much firepower in this light of a package. I trust my life to it at this time of year.

I personnally would like something bigger but I would rather see someone carrying a 357 that he knows how to use confidently than a person who has a cannon and cant hit the broadside of a barn.

A large caliber handgun doesnt mean squat if you cant repeatedly hit a target in very short amount of time.

I too agree that it is better to hit with a .357 than miss with a hand cannon. i prefer 180 gr. loads though for the .357.

it is certainly better than nothing and as for accuracy at contact distance, it should do just fine. i think you would be surprised how many guys could not hit anything with their .500 s.w. anyway. you can't miss fast enough to kill the bear that is having you for lunch...

I hesitate to respond to this post. I was involved in a debate about pistol vs shotgun a couple years ago, and got beat about the head and shoulders pretty good. However, being the hardhead that I am, I'll try again.
I've been in Alaska for 40 years and killed a bunch of bears, so I'm not a newbie.
To answer the original question, Yes, you can kill a 400lb bear with a 357. You can also kill one with a 22LR. Depends on where you hit it.
Here's the problem.......
1. Compare the ballistics of the 357 with ballistics of rifle cartridges. Not very impressive is it?
2. Most folks can't hit a 6" circle at 30 feet with a pistol without the added stress of a bear fixing to eat you. It's even harder with piss running down your leg! If you've got the balls to wait until the bear opens his mouth to eat you, then stick the pistol in his mouth and shoot, good. I applaude you.
That's my reasons for not liking a pistol for defense.
Here's the reasons I carry a Rem. 870 with OOO buckshot.
The bear is charging. His head is pointed toward you. The piss can be running down your leg and you still have a chance of either blinding him or at least turn the damn thing.
Notice I never said I would kill the bear with the shotgun? At this point, I'm not interested in killin him, I just want him not to kill me!

Piss can be running down my leg but with the shotgun, I've got a better chance of hitting the bear in the face.

I carry a Rem. 870 with a folding stock and extended tube.
Having said that, if you don't have a shot gun but have a pistol, carry it, it's better than a sharp stick!

A friend of mine in Seward had a mould for a 200 gr flat nose gas check 357 bullet and loaded them for his wife to shoot in her GP 100 She could hit pretty good with it......When I made up a load for my stainless 2 1/2 " barreled S&W all I could find were 180 gr jacketed bullets........I know a half dozen or so guys who pack a 500 S&W.. All of them can hit a 5 gal bucket at 25 feet one of them is , to me , very accurate with his 4 " model and one is also with his 8 " I forget how much change smith put on the end of the 8 " model..I,ve shot a bunch of deer with my 480 and I like the fact that my wife enjoys shooting it and is not intimidated by it....... I,ve never shot a 500 or 460 S&W and will be suprised if I ever do....... But I think Joel and Cold and Ugly are correct that you,ve got to hit it , as missing is of NO value and a 357 is nice and easy to hit with ..........I have been unimpressed with shot guns as compared to rifles for killing brown bear ......But I,ve lugged one around alot and a good thing about a shotgun is they are affordable...... And I haven,t heard of anyone getting mauled by a bear when shooting one......Compared to a Guide Gun Or Guide Rifle [in 350 rem]I don,t think they compare.....I,ve seen where Forster type slugs at 12 feet or so penetrated less than a foot on chest and shoulder shots on 400 lb brown bear........A 458 win mag and the ability to shoot it fast and well does wonders for keeping your pants dry in a bear charge........

boot:
Carefully read my post. I specifically said I was NOT talking about KILLING the bear, only keeping him from killing me. I think OOO buck in the face will do that.
Thanks.

There has been some interesting comments and points made. Here is why I felt secure carrying the .357. (not in any particular order) I probably have a few other reasons that I can't think of right now as well.
1. I used my head and my wits first - kept a look out and avoided being in areas that I couldn't see very far for very long.
2. I feel comfortable and accurate shooting it. I also feel that with correct close range shot placement, it would be lethal.
3. It would be a last resort...ie being attacked. I would do everything in my power to avoid the confrontation otherwise. (except during hunting season, which was all year round then)
4. It was light (relatively) and 90% of the fishing I did was fly-fishing. It makes it more difficult casting when you have a larger gun slung over your shoulder over your fly vest.
5. The largest bear I would be encountering (or atleast that I've seen in the area) was in the 300-400 pound range. Most I saw while fishing were in the 200-300 lb. range. If I were dealing with much larger blacks, grizzlies, or browns, I would sacrifice casting more easily for my 45-70 Marlin Guide Gun over my shoulder.
6. The bears that I did encounter (in the fall during the silver runs) were more interested in the thouands of humpys and silvers in the river than they were me. The closest I had one come was about 40 yards, I let him know I was there, he looked at me for a second and went about fishing down the river.

Like I said, those are some of the reasons that I felt confident carrying it. Thanks for your comments and input.

I think that in the future, I will atleast look at loading a larger size bullet...those 200gr. sound interesting...185gr. at least. I may look at getting a .44mag for a little extra firepower in the situation...and get good and accurate with it first.

Is the 357 a bear hunting round or ideal stopper? Of course not
No handgun possesses enough raw power to stop an enraged bruin so precise shot placement is needed. The 357 with heavy, hard bullets certainly is adequate for killing bears up close. It has more than enough penetration and is easier to make multiple hits with than the larger bores. I have preached this for years as has Joe Nava who teaches a number of firearms courses in Fairbanks.

Medium, if you can find someone with the RCBS 35-200 mould, that is the bullet I would recommend. It is a gas check design, and is short enough to fit within most cylinders. Working up load data might be bit of a chore, but I suspect there is data out there.

Good luck. Hope you never need to use the handloads...

Well I would rather have a 357 than nothing, sure beats trying to use a rock or a stick to try and defend yourself against a bear. Truth be told, if I to spend a lot of time in bear country, I would carry a 12 gauge shotgun with an 18" barrel and use the 3" Brenekke DG 600 grain slugs, with 6 in the tube and one in the chamber you should be bale to take care of business if the need should arise.

Cast performance has an excellent 200 gr hardcast bullet. Through a buddy I ended up with one of their production molds, and it is great in handguns and rifles.



Is a 357 a bear gun, well debate will go on forever. I'd say if you're planning to pick a fight with a bear, any handgun is at best a tradeoff. If you don't intend to get in a bear fight, but want to pack something just in case, pack the biggest gun you shoot well, and shoot it well if the time comes.

To me the 357 mag is the smallest gun I consider worth carrying.

I carried a mod 66 S&W 357 for 10 yrs using it to kill 2 blacktails and 3 caribou,it worked fine but most required an extra shot or two. Going to a mod 25 S&W 45 Colt with a 300gr hardcast bullet it definitly hits much harder. Based on this my conclusion is if you have a pistol bigger than a 357mag you'd be much better off.

Great post and most make a great point that the .357 is better than a sharp stick. There is one point that I feel necessary to make. Funzr2, like me is an Easterner. Like him, most Easterners really don't respect the black bear for what it is and see it as a petting zoo escapee. He mentions 5 shots. As several have noted, an enraged bear, whether black or grizzly, possesses strength and quickness that is absolutely mind boggling. In most bear attacks, all you get is ONE SHOT. That one shot has to be in the head because regardless of how fast your actions are or the action mechanism of your firearm, the bear is still faster. I carry a custom JRH Ruger in .454 Casull (now made as the Alaskan), but like many, I'd carry a 12 gage pump slug gun if weight wasn't an issue.

I couldn't resist the urge to chime in. Since you are dealing with black bears in the 300-400 lb. range, I would say the answer to your question is yes, the 357 mag when properly loaded would be effective in dispatching a bear. Notice I said properly loaded. I am a fan of 180 gr and heavier bullets in the 357. You should check out the double tap ammo site. This guy produces 357 mag ammo loaded with a 200 gr. hardcast bullet that achieves 1300 fps and produces between 750-800 ft/lbs of energy doing so. One thing about the 200 gr .357 bullet is that it has a fairly high sectional density. Sectional density is a prime factor in determing the amount of penetration. All factors being equal, if you take two bullets of identical construction and fire them at the same velocity, the bullet with a higher sectional density will outpenetrate. What I am going to say next will definitely step on some toes. The 200 gr. .357 bullet has a higher sectional density than a 240 gr. .429 diameter bullet. Thus, I would take a hot 200 gr. 357 load over a 240 gr. 44 mag load any day of the week. When used in a head shot situation(notice I did not body shot), I have no doubt that this combo would stop a black bear in its tracks. Now the 300 gr .429 bullet is a different beast. I would prefer this bullet over any of the others. Just my two cents worth!

I use the 180 Sierra FPJ in my 357 Mag with H110 in my 6" Colt Python.

For costal brown bear a 44 mag with 300gr bullets I consider the min.

After reading the post by 458Win, I've been practicing (for fun) double action shooting at 10 yards with my Ruger GP-100 using Federal 180 grain castcore bullets. Is there factory produced .357 ammo out there that uses a heavier cast bullet?

Cheers

Whoops,

I see that Corbon makes some ammo with 200 grain bullets for about $22.00 a box. Any others out there?

Cheers

r.r.;

thanks for the tip on the 200 gr. corbon. i did not know about that.


the heaviest i have seen is the winchester 180 gr. partition gold the i have been carrying.

quote:

Originally posted by Akshooter:
A very good Question. It's going to be interesting to see what the the responce will be.
I hope .458 replies here .He wrote a very good article in a shooting magazine. As I recall his daughter carried a hand me down .357 while fishing down on the AK penninsula.
The objective was 1. when your at 5 yards or less and you need to put a bullet in the bear's head the.357 would do that just as well as anything.
No the .357 won't be effective in breaking down body parts like a high powered rifle but when the bear has your foot in his mouth a head shot is pritty close.
The main objective here is for the handgun to give you the confidence while you face the bruin on the fishing stream. Bear encounters rarely result in problems other than the occational stolen fish. What you want when you come face to face with a bear on a fishing stream is the confidance to be calm and handle the situation by stepping aside on the trail and letting the bear walk by without running away from him.
When I'm not guideing bear hunters in the spring and fall I take a few groups of bear photogaphers where we spend hours on end with bears at close range. Do I carry a .357? heck no.
I carry ether my F.A..454 casull or my redhawk .45 colt. The .45 is loaded with a hard cast 375gr wfn that's loaded so far beyond sammi spec that even the big bore boys would call me crazy.
You can't get around the fact that a high powered rifle is the best thing to have when things go south with a bear on a fishing stream but I've seen it to many times that the rifle gets to heavey or cumbersom while your trying to work a fly rod and you set it down on the beach.
keeping in mind that your only dealing with black bears and assuming that you don't have a .44 my vote is yes your good with the .357
Let me go on record that I am not a proponent of shotguns for bear protection.

I load 45lc hulls to the beginning of 454 casull data but only for my 20 inch encore sw460 mag rifle barrel rifle,no pressure signs whatsoever.I read an article about coyote hunting with a BH using 180gr hard cast bullets it was all about http://www.castperformance.com and I became a customer .Buffalo Bore & Grizzly Cartridge Co load some 357 ammo but not with 200gr bullets.

wow! all these scenerios just make me wonder what is with the "what ifs". I have lived in many interior Athabaskan villages and walked most ever where. Really enjoyed the fish camps and hunting camps that I have came across, my own or otherwise. With many trails leading from the swamps from the mountains from up river or from down river and back to camp, bears "generally" are not a bother.

A rifle will work just fine in most "all" cases. If you must use or carry handgun from my experience I would also agree the .357 Mag to be the smallest of handguns. Yes it can and has handling recoil capabilities to shoot faster than a larger bore handgun. But.............

I shoot either a 44 smith or a 45 Ruger bisley with weights of 300grain as the lightest in hardcast form. Large meplat hardcast will not only penetrate but exit as well.

All my bears have been killed with a rifle. My handguns are just a good camp companion or in my tent right handy to get. For whatever my experience is worth, take it for what it is. just my .02

If you are looking for a hot 200 gr. cast load, check out www.doubletapammo.com

** ADEQUATE DEPENDS ON THE PRESENTATION **

Considering all , -- I agree with 458WIN , without reservation , on this one .

I reached the same conclusions , myself , quite a few years ago . The prime logic , ( IMHO ) is that the wildest of Super-Magnum handgun cartridges are cookies-and-milk , -- as compared to a righteous Big-Game Rifle .

Agree , also , that rapid grouping in-close , with a penetrating , heavy-for-caliber .357 hardcast , -- yields the best chance of a Central-Nervous System hit ; --- and that's the only thing that will make a large angry Bear , stop beating you up .

If an enraged Griz. will soak up .338 hits , and intensify the attack , what chance does a SW460 give you . --- SW460 is a "hunting" handgun , -- not a Fighting-Handgun . --- Ditto , with .44 Mag. handguns , as compared with .357's .

When you got a handfull of Har' , -- you are better off with a short-barrelled .357 with 7 ( L-frame ) , or 8 ( N-frame ), cartridges in the cylinder ; --- than with a .44 Mag. , that takes you way out of your grouping rut . ( And you can't group a heavy-bullet .44 Mag. fast enough ) .

My field-carry weapon for all occasions , is a M686 SS Seven-shooter, ( 3") , and I use nothing but Federal's good 180 Gr. Cast-Core LBT type beauties .

Recoil is stiff , but controlable , -- at close ranges , it is possible to group them right in there . -- Can't do that with full .44 Magnum's .

.357 , seven or eight shooter , -- best for ANY Bear-attack .

I'm also in agreemant with Elmer Keith and many other famous Pistoleros , -- who believe that a Fighting-Handgun , should have a BBl. of no more than 4 inches , -- should be well-balanced , handy to carry , handle, produce, and present ; -- and be otherwise suited to close-in work .

Big clunkers are not good for personal protection applications .

A handgun is a close-in weapon to fight with when you don't have your long-gun in your hands . -- It's a weapon of last-resort .



------------ Nose To The Trail , -- MMCOUGAR .

A 357 shooting 180gr bullets with a 338 Rifle wouldn't be bad. But a 357 by its self I don't think so. It is adequate if shot in the heart.

If I were hunting bear with a handgun I would want my 500 S&W shooting 400 or 500gr bullets.

molar1,

Thanks for the link. $30 for a box of 50 rounds. I've already ordered some Corbons, but will definitely order some of the doubletaps also.

Cheers.

There was a photo spread a few /sevral years ago of a f&w officer getting whooped up on by a grizzley they were releaseing from a culvert trap... I think it was in Montana... Any way the guy shot the bear 6 times with his 357,, The bullets didn,t do the job fast enough and the officer was saved by someone with him useing a shotgun w/slugs... It wasn,t a very big bear.. But his 357 had hollowpoint people bullets instead of a solid bullet......I think he hit it in the skull but .............He stated , as I remember that he would have been much better off with a hard cast bullet....

We are not discussing hunting rounds here but last ditch defensive shooting and a 180 grain hard cast or jacketed bullet fron a 4" 357 will punch clear through the head of a 1200# bear. they also will break the neck and exit the throat if fired from close range above the animal. I have done both.

quote:

Originally posted by RuarkReader:
Whoops,

I see that Corbon makes some ammo with 200 grain bullets for about $22.00 a box. Any others out there?

Cheers

These are what I carried in my 2.5" model 27 this past year caribou hunting in Alaska for "tent defense". While I was in the field, I just relied on my 30-06 Model 70.

Also check out Buffalo Bore http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#357.

quote:

Originally posted by ray m:
I've lived for over three years in the bush between Eagle and Circle.That was back in the 70's.

I agree with the previous poster about shotguns and bear defense.

Concerning pistols,there is not one that I would trust to stop a large bear charge with a body hit.But with a brain hit,it's another matter.Full steam loads with hard non-expanding bullets directed to the brain will make your 357 mag do as well as any.

Phil,

I only bring up my own post to illustrate and remind that you and I see eye to eye on this.My own carry sidearm of choice happens to be a 44 mag but that doesn't change the fact that the 357 mag "with heavy,non-expanding bullets directed to the brain" will do the job.

As far as I'm concerned,ANY pistol is underpowered for the job if body hits are the subject.

In my opinion,the super power handguns don't do anything but breed false confidence where bears are concerned.

** TURN YOUR .44 MAG. INTO A .357 **

---- RE: RAY M's preferred .44 Mag. ---

There's many documented cases of the AK. Favorite .44 Mag. dispatching Large Bruins , just fine .

My point on preferring the .357 is mainly by default ; -- i.e. that you ain't STOPPING , a close in determined attack on an angry Bear with one .460 S&W to the center / frontal , either . -- Where as , since your only chance is the CNS , -- you're better off with 7 or 8 shots , double action , -- in a Double Action weapon that you can cycle very rapidly in the last split second -- and GROUP well with .

There are , however , many possible presentations , where you would have a second or two more , ( and plenty of time to grab a sight picture and place a nice single-action shot with the .44 . -- I'm sure there are some presentations , where you would be better off with a handgun , more powerful , than heavy .357 .

But it's the close-in ones , -- the worst scenario type , -- where I'm convinced that a short barreled DA .357 is the better choice .

But no-one should trade in a goodly .44 DA revolver . -- You can load some hot .44 Spl. level loads , plug in a hardcast with , perhaps a smaller meplat , -- and you've got the same beans as the , .357 for rapid close-in grouping , -- ( penetration wise , anyway ) .

The .44's will do anything the .357 will do and more , -- so will the .41 .

The only thing excepted is crowding in that 7th or 8th round .

----------- NTTT , ------- MMCOUGAR .

what about a heavy 10mm loaded with 200-220gr hard case or FMJ loads, get you a few more shots in the tube that way and equal to the 357 mag.

. . . . . 10 MM -- Been thinking a lot about that lately .

The Mod. 17 is my main carry weapon , ( of all time ) . --- I've got a home-practice ,
" BeamHit " device , -- and have put more practice in with Glock's grip angle , than any other carry weapon .

A full sized Glock 10 MM , will probably , eventually , replace my M 686 , 7 shooter .

Double Tap Ammo. Co. makes a good lookin' 215 Gr. hardcast , ( W/ LBT type design ) , for the 10 , -- but looking at the nose shape , I wonder if it will feed with the reliability needed for an absolutely Must-do Outdoor defense weapon ??

( Glocks are supposed to feed
" ANYTHING " , -- but you want the best of the best , if we're talking Bruin defense . -- ??

Anmybody know about feeding DoubleTap's 215 Grainer -- ??

Yep , -- figure it's a good Idea , for our speculations , -- The 10 .

-------- MHO , -- MMCOUGAR .

quote:

We are not discussing hunting rounds here but last ditch defensive shooting and a 180 grain hard cast or jacketed bullet fron a 4" 357 will punch clear through the head of a 1200# bear. they also will break the neck and exit the throat if fired from close range above the animal. I have done both.

Phil Shoemaker

Phil
I sure would like to hear this story.

DR B

i carry a colt python .357 4" with 180 gr. winchester nosler partition gold.

i too would like to hear the story. please regale us.

i would rather hit with my 357 while being devoured, than miss with a 500 s.w.. m.h.o.

mmconcolor,

This is not a big deal but I wanted to set the record straight about something.You misinterpreted my meaning when I stated that my carry sidearm of choice is a 44mag.It has absolutely nothing to do with bears.

A 44 magnum has been my handgun of choice for about 40 years for general use.That,in no way changes the fact that I consider the 357 just as good for bear defense,for the reasons already given.

quote:

what about a heavy 10mm loaded with 200-220gr hard case

I have been mulling that same thought. I have read Mike McNetts penetration test a couple of yrs back on the .401dia./200grn gas checks vs. the .430dia./325grn gas checks and they were about the same.
He was loading with 800X,200grn BTB and using the KKM 6"bbl.
I bought the barrel, brass and 500rnds of bullets from Marshall over at the Beartooth site but still have yet to buy the Glock 20--kind of like buying the saddle before the horse

nonetheless should be a fine reliable carrying piece.