I had a stag hunt booked in Patagonia for me and two friends in March 2006. The outfitter has advised me that due to some neagtive issues with the landowner, he must cancel the trip. I really appreciate the outfitter's honesty and his unwillingness to proceed, given the circumstances.

I would like to find another reputable outfit to hunt with. Our dates are March 16-24. We would like to hunt Patagonia. Free range, no small enclosures. The outfitter must be well organized and equipped and must supply references. Can anyone here provide a lead or two? Thanks in advance.

David: PM sent.

Nainital,

It hasn't arrived yet. I'll let you know when I'm able to read it.

Thanks,
David

David: I´ve e mailed you directly.
Good luck

Hi David,

Be very careful with Argentina! Most of the outfitters will try to trick you no matter how. Last season they had a lot of problems in Patagonia with the Police as a lot of outfitters hunted without the proper permits. Also some caged cougars were found (you can guess why the breed them for). Some of the most famous outfitters were involved in this.

Send me a PM if you want a good and save reference for red stag in Patagonia.

Regards,

quote:

Originally posted by carlos marin:
Hi David,
Be very careful with Argentina! Most of the outfitters will try to trick you no matter how.

Send me a PM if you want a good and save reference for red stag in Patagonia.
Regards,

I don't agree with you, MOST of the outfitters are very good and experienced professionals. Bad apples are everywhere but you can not generalize.

Are you somehow involved in the hunting business ??

L

Nope, i'm not involved in the hunting business at all. I just know quite well the argentinean market.

The cougar con trick is widely spread. I will not recommend anyone to go there for that species as you will never be possitive about not having hunted a canned animal. A few years ago, there was another classical con with the red brocket deer (which, in fact, was a brown one). and so on and so on...

Hunting is a big business in Argentina. There is a lot of money involved in it and a lot of non-professional people (taxidermists, gunsmiths, vets, etc.) have entered the hunting business with the main purpose of filling up their pockets with the money of the foreign hunters. So my tip is: if you want to book argentine be very careful about who you book with. Before hunting and paying everything is easy. Then come the surprises...

I´d like to point out that criticising other outfitters and afterwards offering the own services sounds like very bad taste.
There are rip offs here of course, but every hunting area suffers from the same sickness. I remember very well Ruark´s tale about the frozen leopard, for instance

Nainital, I'm not offering my own services as long as I have nothing to do with the hunting business. I just offered the contact of the outfitters I have never had a problem with.

Regards

By the way, obviously, i'm carlos marin.

I don´t understand your need for using 2 nicks. We´ve seen this kind of maneuver many times...one of them is not related to the hunting business, the other clearly is.
For my money, this is

Dear naintal, don't you think it would be a little bit stupid doing what you say I'm doing and then telling everybody that I'm both persons? I changed my nick because I made a mistake when subscribing, that's all.

You know as I know that what I'm saying is true and that foreign hunters are seen just like a walking dollar sack in Argentina. Maybe you want things to still the same (in your own benefit? ) . I dont and if I can help anyone to avoid these kind of outfitters that sadly abound in Argentina (Debono, Pastor,
Beloqui, Noya, Robles, Bianchi, etc.), I will. Take care

76-I am glad to see all the information you care to post.Both good and bad reports provide a bit of information and any knowledge about a prospective outfitter is good to have .

If all we post about is the good stuff then we do not really do anyone a lot of good.

In the past I have mentinoned the frozen or canned pumas hunts in la pampa, you can do a little of search...

I just thought it wasn't fair to put most of the outfitters in the same bag, just that..

Happy Christmas to everyone !!!!

L

David,
My name is Alvaro Mazon and, with another partner, I own and manage a hunting consultancy firm that operates from Spain.
We can recommend our hunt in Patagonia, about one and a half hours drive from Bariloche's airport.
From there you will have to ride a horseback to one of the three camps we have, from 3 to five hours drive. Which camp you will be using depends on how the stags are moving.
This is an abolutely fair chase hunt on free ranging animals and in an inmense territory. You will see stags everyday and you will have the opportunity to choose a real keeper, or two, as we have plenty of quota available.
Camps are conveniently equiped but basic. They are situated around 5,000 feet of altitude, and weather can be , sometimes, a determining factor.
Hunting is by spot and stalk, and the hunt in general, reminds me a lot of the typical hunt with horses and in tented camps in the Rockies, to give you a reference.
I have done this hunt myself, as all other hunts we recommend, and can recommend it very highly. I can provide with references from clients (Spanish) I have had there.
Your dates are a bit early for this place, beginning of April being much, much more convenient. It is the time when the "brama" or roaring is finishing and the stags start moving up and into the mountains. This territory has high mountain pastures of exceptional quality, and the stags go there to hurry and put some fat before the winter comes.
The area that we hunt is extremely well known in the region and produces very good trophies.
Let me know if you would like further information.

with compliments,

Alvaro Mazon

Camino real Hunting Consultants SL
Spain
Alvaro@CRhunting.com
+34 608 439 242 (mobile telephone)

Marin: I´m not an outfitter, nor am I involved in the hunting business. I´m just another gun nut enjoying Saeed´s generosity and learning from this marvelous site. Thus, I´m not in the least interested in keeping the statu quo of the hunting business in Argentina. Anyway, I still consider your naming several very well known professionals and calling them cheaters (people whom I don´t know, by the way), to be a very disgraceful move. Perhaps you have a feud with some of them, perhaps not, I don´t know you and feel that I don´t like to. Regarding other doubts which may concern myself I´ll be very glad to meet you and answer in a personal manner.

Dear Nainital: At least we share something: The lack of interest for knowing each other. I have an extensive experience hunting (as a foreigner) in argentina and so have some very close friends of mine. My conclusion is that, if you do not choose the right outfitter, you may end up having significant problems. Whoever wants to know the outfitters I have hunted with without having any problems nor surprises (unexpected "licenses", extra charges for "record class" trophies, abusive daily rates, etc., etc.) can send me a PM and I'll be most happy to help him.

For my part, this discussion is closed: you think that hunting in Argentina (as a foreigner) is always smooth and that almost every outfitter is a model of sensibly and I don't think so. Everyone can draw his own conclusions.

Regards and happy Cristmas to everyone!

Carlos Marin / Bharal76

Tell us openly (facts non verba !) about your bad experiences, with full names, dates and places ... that´s one of the best utilities AR gives us ... and a good way to burn those outfiters (or whatever they might happen to be) for ever if indeed they behaved in an unproper way ....

Dude, if I happen to travel all that distance and find out that I was called to hunt in an unlicensed place and, even worse, have some trouble with local justice because of that , well ....

I hunted with Algar in 2005...very high quality utfit. there is 10k acre enclosure area and a 40k acre free range area

Email me if you want onfo...they book thru Keith Atcheson 406 782 2382

http://www.algar-outfitters.com.ar/algar_home.html

Ditto Mike. In Argentina there are very good, acceptable and bad outfitters, as in any other place in the world. What shouldn´t be done is calling people thieves without giving the facts. Furthermore, they don´t post here so in all probability will never know what happens. I´m waiting for well documented proof. Otherwise this should be considered

Afrikaander,

Some facts: last season 12 Spanish hunters were arrested in a big estate called El Oasis as a result of the discovery of a cougar farm. Some of the outfitters that I mentioned in my previous posts were involved.

More facts: Debono was arrested a few weeks ago with a stolen van containing some undocumented trophies. Some estates wont let him hunt as a result of previous bad experiences.

More facts: If you can read Spanish, I can send you an article by a Spanish hunter called "Churrasco Argentino" where he describes how he was tricked by Giusti (another argentine "outfitter"). I've heard that another Spanish hunter tried to clobber this outfitter after having been forced to stay in a hotel for 5 days (that, of course, he had paid as hunting days).

Of course, some people had good experiences with these outfitters, but every year two or three hunters went back home without their trophies and money and, I dont know you, but when I spend my holidays and money going hunting abroad, I dont want to take the risk of comming across one of these guys.

Nainital: I dont know why are you taking all this issue in such a personal way. Of course in Argentina you can find good and reputated, standard and bad outfitters. the problem is that, in my opinion and experience, the probability of ending up hunting with a bad one is bigger there than in Europe, for instance. On top, a lot of them are not real outfitters and bring foreign hunters to argentina just as a way of obtaining some extra money...It's not difficult to imagine how the results normally are.

Again, my discussion with you is closed. I'll post the references of the outfitters I've never had a problem with to whoever is interested in. That's all.

Mr. Carlos Marin or Bharal 76

I’m writing from Argentina, in the name of Mr. Jorge Beloqui from La Pampa province, he asked me to address you as follows:
Please explain yourself about your comments regarding my name.
You said:
“if I can help anyone to avoid these kind of outfitters that sadly abound in Argentina (Debono, Pastor, Beloqui, Noya, Robles, Bianchi, etc.), I will. Take careâ€
Provide evidence if you have any doubt about my honesty as an outfitter, or apologize in this forum.

Jorge Beloqui
Queué
La Pampa Argentina

Dear Willy1953 (on behalf of Mr. Jorge Beloqui),

I hope you will understand that I'm not going to apologize for giving MY opinion in a free forum. What I can do instead is to explain the reason why I included the name of your friend in that list: as far as i know, organizing hunting trips in Argentina is not the main activity of Mr. Jorge Beloqui and thus I include him among those that do this to get an extra money. Although I know people that had a good experience with him, in MY opinion, "amateur" outfitter should be avoided.

I dont want all the Argentinian outfitters posting their claims and I dont have time to be answering them on a daily basis (sadly, I have to work to hunt). Thus, I hope everyone understands that I wont answer any other post on this from now on.

nevertheless, in order to help all my fellow hunters to avoid being tricked as some friends of mine and myself have been, I'll post the most common scams to be avoided when hunting in Argentina. This applies to every outfitter. If, as some people here think, all of them are first level and serious ones, it shouldn't be a problem to get all these things guaranteed before sending a buck:

- Paying an excessive amount for a hunting license. This can be easily checked looking at the standard offers that all outfitters provide. You will see how much the hunting license fee for the same province varies from one outfitter to the other. Shouldn't this be the same?
- Price of the tags. Some friends of mine were asked $350 for a red stag tag that really costs $25.
- Hidden costs. Ask for an exhaustive list of what is and what is not included for the money you pay. here I include the "yes, I know that I gave you this price for the black antelope (usually, very cheap), but I forgot to tell you that if it measures over 40 cms, each cms has an extra cost of [...]" and similar. Very typical.
- Price of the cartridges (this is amazing; try and go to a gunsmith in Bs As and see how much a box really costs)
- Hunting with a company which is not registered as a hunting company. This may lead to problems when importing your rifles.
- The classic: canned pumas. Very difficult to identify, but here's a good clue: a real puma is hard to hunt and usually takes a lot of time. Be suspicious of guaranteed pumas. Even more in two hunting days.
- Hunting in estates that, although having game, do not have the permit to hunt in them or hunting in hunting estates without the owner being aware of that fact (i.e. basically coming to an agreement with the "gaucho" to hunt in the estate). Sadly, this two last things are pretty difficult to realize and, when you do, it you may end up like the 12 Spanish hunters i mentioned in my last post.

I hope this helps all of you to have a smooth hunt in Argentina. It's a great and beutiful country with lots of hunting alternatives.

Im Dr Juan Pablo Pozzi md,acertified surgeon ,and i proudly guide hunters here ,i was a member of the national rifle team,15 years old,hunters and breeder of dogs all my life ,i own more hunting lands that you can imagine,my shooting credential in the argentinian shooting federation is number 2 ,im a member of a lot of clubs and federations ,i was a scout in the army,im a certified shooting instructor ,and expert on personal protection and i guide since 12 years ago .Ipersonally know Beloqui i hunt with him hes a well known expert on red stag ,he participated in a lot of courses ,classes and covetions about red stag ,hes the president of the Quehue big game club and a full time ph he lives all the year in LA PAMPA so i trust him on his knologment about free red stag its a pitty that you dont know him because he can teach us a lot of things.Idont know Noya personally but hes a real ph with a veterinary university degree and i believe a good hunter.I try to do my best in my hunts but i hunt free lands in the jungles of the north mostly and in the patagonia sometimes things dont happens like we want ,but at least my clients cannot say that they have to pay more that i say previously,indeed a lot of times they killed more animals for free and i dont ask him to pay injured animals,i dont give the names of my clients but they can testified this ,but all i can do is INIVITE YOU FREE TO SEE AT LEAST MY DOVE OPERATION AND THEN YOU WILL BELIEVE THAT ,besides i dont need money .juan

I have been to argentina twice and am going back again this spring. I have had one great experience and one not so good. It is like anything else. There are good and bad in everything. You paint with a broad brush my friend. I can understand why a few of our other friends are getting a little testy. Unless you can name specific people and events it is meaningless. It is like me saying all spaniards are drunks because I met one who was was a drunk. It is a bad example but you get my point. I appreciate a warning, but it should be backed up with some fact. It should also not be generalized to the majority of the outfitters. I know there are a few bad apples in the bunch but that dosnt condemn everyone.

Dave
I have hunted with Juan Pozzi, not for stag, but I have clients that have done stag with him. He is honest and will treat you right.
They have numerous places they hunt stag and trophys range silver to gold metal. Go to my web sight and open the photo albums at the bottom of the Argentina page. All these photos are from Juan and his partner Alberto.

Don

quote:

Originally posted by juanpozzi:
Im Dr Juan Pablo Pozzi md,acertified surgeon ,and i proudly guide hunters here ,i was a member of the national rifle team,15 years old,hunters and breeder of dogs all my life ,i own more hunting lands that you can imagine,my shooting credential in the argentinian shooting federation is number 2 ,im a member of a lot of clubs and federations ,i was a scout in the army,im a certified shooting instructor ,and expert on personal protection and i guide since 12 years ago .Ipersonally know Beloqui i hunt with him hes a well known expert on red stag ,he participated in a lot of courses ,classes and covetions about red stag ,hes the president of the Quehue big game club and a full time ph he lives all the year in LA PAMPA so i trust him on his knologment about free red stag its a pitty that you dont know him because he can teach us a lot of things.Idont know Noya personally but hes a real ph with a veterinary university degree and i believe a good hunter.I try to do my best in my hunts but i hunt free lands in the jungles of the north mostly and in the patagonia sometimes things dont happens like we want ,but at least my clients cannot say that they have to pay more that i say previously,indeed a lot of times they killed more animals for free and i dont ask him to pay injured animals,i dont give the names of my clients but they can testified this ,but all i can do is INIVITE YOU FREE TO SEE AT LEAST MY DOVE OPERATION AND THEN YOU WILL BELIEVE THAT ,besides i dont need money .juan

Juan, If you don't need money why are you doing what you do? A doctor? An awful lot trouble with no profit? Give me a break

Juan, If you don't need money why are you doing what you do? A doctor? An awful lot trouble with no profit? Give me a break

"La vida no vale nada sin El Honor"
Winggunner
SCV, MOS&B, SUVCW

Ever hear of doing what you love to do....just because you can? Maybe you should try it sometime.
I spent some time walking around the city where Juan lives. I wanted to do some shopping for my wife. I was impressed with the people walking up to him to shake his hand and thank him for taking care of them or thier families in the hospital. It was like everyone knew him and they liked him too.

quote:

Originally posted by winggunner:
Juan, If you don't need money why are you doing what you do? A doctor? An awful lot trouble with no profit? Give me a break

I think you should know better before making such statements ...

I know Juan personally, even went with him to his own clinic ... and let me tell you that profit isn´t what makes him hunt or guide, since he earns his living by other means & activities ... some of us feel hunting as a holy flame, feeling alive in its most comprehensive way just when hunting, hunting in the most ethical and fairy way ....

But as stated before, you should know better before questioning the word of somebody respected and known by many AR members

Then I stand corrected. It was not my intent to slander Juan personally. Unfortunatly I do not know Juan personally. I offer here my most humble apology.
I do have, however, xtensive experience with Argentinians. There are, unfortunately many bad apples out there in a higher persentage to the good honest people.
The only proble with Agrentina are Argentinas. I have tried to do other business there without success. They tend to have the ONE BIG DEAL concept rather that extablish on going relations. THey also tend to think that they are the most clever people in the world and the tend to think that "Gringos" are just out there for the plucking. I could go into examples after examples but why bother.

quote:

Originally posted by winggunner:
The only proble with Agrentina are Argentinas

Sadly, I must agree with you on that ... and let me tell you my own grandfather was President of Argentina some 40 years ago ...

As you well said, there are many bad apples - in Argentina as there are everywhere ... but I think we shouldn´t generalize because some bad experiences we had ... there are many good, uprighted people in Argentina ... sadly the bad ones make much more noise !!

But many people here practice your own motto (life without honor is worthless), living with honor and honors, gained in their everyday attitude ...

Winggunner, give Argentina another opportunity... I can assure you that you won´t be dissapointed ... only you have to be more carefull when choosing your partners, friends or even hosts (an advice that must be applied worldwide) !!!


Regards,

quote:

Originally posted by winggunner:
The only proble with Agrentina are Argentinas

Nooooooooooooooo you must be kidding

Nainital, Juan, Gustavo and others...
I promise I don't have nothing to do with this

Aguanten las papeleras !!!

L

To Lorenzo: Velez Sarsfield 5-Rocha 0.

The uruguayans deserve another chapter ...

Too many things to be said about them (a couple of them good ones, I must admit)

quote:

Originally posted by Afrikaander:

quote:

Originally posted by winggunner:
The only proble with Agrentina are Argentinas

Sadly, I must agree with you on that ... and let me tell you my own grandfather was President of Argentina some 40 years ago ...

As you well said, there are many bad apples - in Argentina as there are everywhere ... but I think we shouldn´t generalize because some bad experiences we had ... there are many good, uprighted people in Argentina ... sadly the bad ones make much more noise !!

But many people here practice your own motto (life without honor is worthless), living with honor and honors, gained in their everyday attitude ...

Winggunner, give Argentina another opportunity... I can assure you that you won´t be dissapointed ... only you have to be more carefull when choosing your partners, friends or even hosts (an advice that must be applied worldwide) !!!


Regards,

Please don't misunderstand me. I LOVE ARGENTINA, it fact my last business deal was to earn me enough money to go there and retire. Unfortunately it flopped and I went bankrupt. Argentina is my second country. I PERSONALLY HAVE NOT been screwed there, Robbed twice, but never screwed. I was very fortunate to meet someone on my third trip that has become one of my best friends - Gustavo Olsen of the Olsen's de San Humberto i Tres Picos.
I tend to find that once you get out of the big cities BA, the people are the salt of the earth. That fact might be helped in that I speak the language. I have traveled your country from Foz de Iguazu' to Ushuaia and love every inch of it, the wine, the beef, and expecially the women which are some of the most beautiful in the entire world.
BUT, OTHERS HAVE BEEN AND DO GET SCREWED and you are right of course that I should not generalize. Another quote
"The evil that men do lives after them, the good is buried with their bones"
Next time I am there I will give your a call before I head North or South.
Robert Jackson Longmire
"The Winggunner"
"If It Flys, It Dies" my flag that has flown in AR and even Cuba

Robert (Winggunner) I will very pleased to meet you some day ... please if you ever happen to come this south again let me know it, so as to arrange for you a truly argentinian welcome we reserve only for our friends ... and who knows ? perhaps we can even go hunting together !!



We keep in touch !

BTW, you know my country quite well ! you described it very thoroughly

Best Regards,

Martin Casañas Onganía - aka Afrikaander

Martin,
I still have not been in the far northeast but I still have a few years left I think. I really love the south, Patagonia. The fishing there is without compare. I have fished many of the famous rivers, in fact I once float fished with Jose Martinez de )hos??) the former minister of finance for the Military Junta. A very nice gentleman and quite a hunter and fisherman. It was so very sad that he lost his son. The son and his wife also fished with us on the float. One is not supposed to outlive ones' child. That must be very hard on Jose. That float was with Goose Olsen.
My last trip was in 1997 and I was there for a little over 3 months. First in the north in Esquina and then in the south at San Humberto and San Martin de los Andes. God I love it there.
One of my photos hangs in your consulate in Miami and in the home of your ambassador. A super lucky shot overlooking Ushuaia and the Beagle Channel. I took it after a day of fishing and I was more than a little drunk, but sometimes God smiles on Drunks and Children and that day he smiled on me. It was the 37th frame in a roll of 36 - Nikon N90S with Nikor ?? forgot the lens.

Chio
Jack I don't use Robert

Then Jack will be !!!

Both places you mentioned are a sure destiny when speaking about fishing ... thou I much prefer the Patagonia instead of the Mesopotamia (Esquina - Corrientes province)

San Martin is indeed such a beautiful place ... but let me tell you it has changed a little since 1997, nowadays is much more populated than it was in those days, with all the cons "civilization" can do to a place like that

True what you said about Jose Martinez de Hoz, "affectionately" known here as Joe .... he is one of the most acknoledged hunter my country has - much more than he is as an economist - and no one can avoid sympathize with him when considering his loss ... Good Lord ! I have three young kids (6, 4 and 2 years old) and the mere thought of loosing any of them makes me feel shocked !

Do you have any copy of those mentioned pictures ?
Here are some pictures of myself with my last red deer (12 points), hunted less than a month ago (in the same hunting trip I captured the Bothrops Alternatus I mentioned you in another thread ) :









Later,

Martín,
Nice stag and hunted in some thick vegetation !!
Lucky man, I was there last march and I saw nothing !!

Our geverments are doing their best to make us enemies..when we are going to war???

Beware, I have just loaded some 250 BT grainers for my 9,3x62

L

Martin your stag is real nice and was hunted free range and in real conditions congratulations again .Ihope to see you this month to go a knife hunt. Martin granfather was not only a past president was one of the best presidents our country have .Juan .pd you must know wildpork and hunt with him in pennsylvania his like us .Juan

quote:

Originally posted by Lorenzo:
Martín,
Nice stag and hunted in some thick vegetation !!
Lucky man, I was there last march and I saw nothing !!

(....)

L

Actually I must tell you I couldn´t see much either !!!
My only guidance was to follow what I could hear, which were mostly grumbles .....

After a couple of hours I managed to have that deer almost in front of me
(some 25 meters away) ... by then, so far I could only see to top of its crown at best, so thick was the bush I was hunting in ... and its three points in each crown was a go !

Shot had to be somehow guessed, imagining its body contours and with the
deer finally dropping almost inmediately in its tracks !

A tense stalk that ended with a good shot ... I couldn´t ask for more !

quote:

Originally posted by Lorenzo:

(...)
Our geverments are doing their best to make us enemies..when we are going to war???

Beware, I have just loaded some 250 BT grainers for my 9,3x62

L

I have my best varmint rifle ready since all this "cellulose factories" stuff started ...
I will deploy my group at the zone of Concordia (my father´s homeland !) as I will surely want to go to the thermal baths of Salto as soon as the operations begin ....

Seriously speaking we have too many roots in common to let this stuff grow to a more
endangered level ... why don´t let a proper environment impact study be done and stop
all this controversy for once and for all ?

The mediocrity of the uruguayans politicians doesn't have anything to envy to the Argentinean ones ... even that we have in common ...

We can discuss all this matter with a good asado, some good wine and afterwards, a match of Truco (card game) will decide who the winner will be ... but you must bring the mate for the afternoon break !

C U !
and happy easter !