After a lot of thought I've decided to seek some help and advice from board members here.
First problem I have is, is this the best place for this topic. For a number of reason I want,and need,to get as much traffic to this thread as possible.
Here's the bare bones off our problem and we can and will support this with as much information as is needed but first I need guidence.

We have a client that as a large outstanding account with us and all our attempts to raise this with him have meet with silence. Its extremely difficult to follow up issues like this when you are 12000miles away in New Zealand.
Here's our take on the situation. At the successful completion of this hunt for Gold medal Stag, tahr and fallow the final balance of $11400 was not settled due to a credit card ,actually cards not having the funds to met payment. OK we'll let the client return home and wire transfer the balance. Honest people pay bills. 21days later and we are nervous,but we still have an option as we have the cc # for the spouses card, so we process this card and the funds duelly arrive.
Great we think and sorry for the misunderstanding. WRONG client contacts his bank to say the transaction is fraud and he wants the money back in his account.
After 2 months of to and fro with our bank, a bank in the midddle and his bank the funds are reversed out of our account. OUCH
Now we are out the $11400 and any attempts by us to contact the client are falling on deaf ears.

To say we are unhappy about this is perhaps an understatement, yes the $$ are an issue to us BUT what hurts the most is the dishonest behavoir of this person from Phoenix.

The said person,and I'm not naming any names yet,I can and will but need to know some of the repercussions of doing this. US law and New Zealand law are not the same, so before I name and shame I need a little advice.

That said person is setting up a booking agency in the US has lead me to already issue awarning to the Guides and Outfitters in NZ, South Africa and Namibia.
SCI in Tuscon have been advised.
Next step is the Hunting Report.

At the very least this person will not be finding anymore unsuspecting victims.

Appreciate your advise.

That SUCKS!!! You should have never let him leave with the trophies. When he was in New Zealand you had him by the short hairs, now it might be tough to get the cash but I am pulling for you.

I would postthis in another forum that gets more hits just so more people see it

Drum

I would contact hunting report as well as his local city chamber of commerce.

What did SCI say?

If you send SCI his contact information and you are both members they might kick him out.

What happened to the animals? Did he export them, or did you hold them pending funds?

Still waiting to hear back from SCI,be interesting as this was an auction hunt at the Reno Convention.
I'm still holding the trophies, I make mistakes but not all the time!!
Issue I have with holding the trophies is that it places our taxidermist in an awkward position, no point in 2 of us being out of funds.
What can i gain by contacting the Local City Chamber of Commerce?

I would just ask if he is in good standing in the community, and tell them what happened.

Also ask them of a name of a local lawyer, and I see no reason why he couldn't represent you in court without you flying back and forth to the USA. However, I am not a lawyer, and really don't know shit.

If you have the trophies and he doesn't care about them, you might just be stuck. I would contact an American lawyer in his town and find out what you can do.

You might also contact the credit card company or hire a local Kiwi lawyer to do so. It sounds as though this was his plan all along to screw you over, but maybe they are having financial difficulties or maybe he died. You never know what could happen in peoples lives.

The bottom line if it was intentional it was pretty serious theft. You might have a case in New Zealand and that could keep him from travelling there again.

Just shooting in the dark, but if it helps!

What he did was credit card fraud, you might also call his local police department?

Just thinking!

Highlander,

I am personal friends with one of the top criminal lawyers in Arizona. If you are in need of his services, please PM me.

If you would like to PM me this individuals name, I could notify our State Taxidermy Association to red flag his future business transactions. I am sure all Arizona taxidermists would appreciate the info.


Kind regards,
Mary

Another thought is you might want to contact the District Attorney's office is his area. The dollar amount he owes you would classify it as a felony I believe. It worked for me when I had trouble with a gut out of Tenn. once. But since you are in New Zealand I do not know if they will help or not.

Highlander, may I suggest that PM Larry Shores as he had the same problem in reverse. You may remember that he paid a shit load of money to Guide? in NZ who did not come up with the goods. The local cops are going to nail this guy. One would assume that this works both ways

That's lousy, and makes it hard to trust people. Hope you get your money back.

KG

quote:

Originally posted by highlander:
After a lot of thought I've decided to seek some help and advice from board members here.
First problem I have is, is this the best place for this topic. For a number of reason I want,and need,to get as much traffic to this thread as possible.
Here's the bare bones off our problem and we can and will support this with as much information as is needed but first I need guidence.

We have a client that as a large outstanding account with us and all our attempts to raise this with him have meet with silence. Its extremely difficult to follow up issues like this when you are 12000miles away in New Zealand.
Here's our take on the situation. At the successful completion of this hunt for Gold medal Stag, tahr and fallow the final balance of $11400 was not settled due to a credit card ,actually cards not having the funds to met payment. OK we'll let the client return home and wire transfer the balance. Honest people pay bills. 21days later and we are nervous,but we still have an option as we have the cc # for the spouses card, so we process this card and the funds duelly arrive.
Great we think and sorry for the misunderstanding. WRONG client contacts his bank to say the transaction is fraud and he wants the money back in his account.
After 2 months of to and fro with our bank, a bank in the midddle and his bank the funds are reversed out of our account. OUCH
Now we are out the $11400 and any attempts by us to contact the client are falling on deaf ears.

To say we are unhappy about this is perhaps an understatement, yes the $$ are an issue to us BUT what hurts the most is the dishonest behavoir of this person from Phoenix.

The said person,and I'm not naming any names yet,I can and will but need to know some of the repercussions of doing this. US law and New Zealand law are not the same, so before I name and shame I need a little advice.

That said person is setting up a booking agency in the US has lead me to already issue awarning to the Guides and Outfitters in NZ, South Africa and Namibia.
SCI in Tuscon have been advised.
Next step is the Hunting Report.

At the very least this person will not be finding anymore unsuspecting victims.

Appreciate your advise.

You need to find a "Little Tony" or "Big Ed" etc. Pay 'em a couple of g's to pay him a visit.
Just kidding, but it would give some satisfation!

I'm not making lite of your situation, just that's how pissed off I get, thinking about theives.

Highlander:
I am an attorney here in Alabama, USA. I agree with the advise to contact a lawyer in his state of residence. If you do not know of one, write to the State Bar Association of the State of residence for a recomendation, or I can find you one if you would like. If this jerk is in the State of Alabama, I would be glad to go after him for you. Sometimes a certified letter from an attorney is all it takes, sometimes a law suit. Depending on the contract you have, you may ecover all of your expenses and attorney fees. If you want to contact me via PM please feel free to and I will try to answer any questions you have- I know your problems with collections having been there myself.
Judge Sharpe

Thanks everybody.
I've PMed Mary and Judge Sharpe.
Getting some feed back from SCI,very interesting,seems I'm not alone in my concerns.
Its so damn difficult being so far away from this, if I was in Phoenix I'd be banging on this guys door and sending him a note from an attorney,guess I can do some of that from here.

Appreciate the help, gathering pieces of the puzzle at the moment, once everything is lined up I'll touch of the release and hopefully send my arrow at the right spot.Only got one shot so it has to count.
Any more helpful suggestions are welcomed.

A thief is a thief no matter how it is done. Unfortunately there are too many people like this out there. I would be interested in hearing what SCI had to say so far. Can you share that with us at this point? I am curious about your statement about others having th same concerns.

quote:

Originally posted by highlander:
Still waiting to hear back from SCI,be interesting as this was an auction hunt at the Reno Convention.
I'm still holding the trophies, I make mistakes but not all the time!!
Issue I have with holding the trophies is that it places our taxidermist in an awkward position, no point in 2 of us being out of funds.
What can i gain by contacting the Local City Chamber of Commerce?

Am I missing something here? I would assume that if this was an SCI Auction hunt, he would heve paid them, for the hunt. How much does 11000 NZ dollars translate int US Greenbacks? Sounds like poor business practices, on your end.
Grizz
Grizz

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzly Adams:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by highlander:
Still waiting to hear back from SCI,be interesting as this was an auction hunt at the Reno Convention.
I'm still holding the trophies, I make mistakes but not all the time!!
Issue I have with holding the trophies is that it places our taxidermist in an awkward position, no point in 2 of us being out of funds.
What can i gain by contacting the Local City Chamber of Commerce?

Am I missing something here? I would assume that if this was an SCI Auction hunt, he would heve paid them, for the hunt. How much does 11000 NZ dollars translate int US Greenbacks? Sounds like poor business practices, on your end.
Grizz

Did you bill a VISA or MASTERCARD credit card for the services?

If so, then these to follow international laws that are agreed upon by all merchants, anywhere they are accepted.

First, I would file a formal dispute with YOUR bank for funds. There is ONE ultimate question that is asked of both YOU and the client:

DID YOU RECEIVE THE SERVICES FOR WHICH YOU WERE BILLED? Answer, YES!

I would send a detailed letter explaining the events and a demand letter for payment.

This individual has committed FRAUD by stating and putting IN WRITING that YOU committed fraud by collecting funds due to you on his wife's CC. This is a big deal and he obviously doesn't know shit.

I've been through all of this as a client. I learned a heck of a lot about the visa/mastercard international laws, etc. and the processes regarding fraud.

This client has committed fraud.

Firstly I'd like to thank everybody here for the support and advise,its great and so so helpful.

We are going to take this to the next level, it will take time and I will do my best to keep you all updated.
A sorry avent but one that could happen to anybody and probably has , I just feel lucky to have the AR forums available to help out in situations like this.
One of the many many benefits of this site and others like it.
Doc you raise an interesting points and one that we are following up on. Like a lot of things you should never believe the first opinion. I will file with our bank on Monday(Saturday here now).
Hopefully everybody can learn something from this and that alone will make the whole thing worthwhile.
Not so sure about that Dodge thing! I was brought up to believe if you can afford a Ford, dodge a Dodge and by a GM.
Grizzly, the auction hunt was for a Stag hunt, client upgraded to add Tahr and Fallow plus other add ons, hence the $11400, all in the contract.

Give us an update on this issue.

I appreciate I'm late to the party, but my take on this is that you should have had a written contract detailing all the costs and payment deadlines etc and if you do have this, then it's fairly straightforward.......... however, if I read your comments about running the spouse's CC correctly, you ran the card without her permission, in which case, it was you that was in the wrong because you're not allowed to run a card without the owners permission and they were quite entitled to stop the transaction. The debt is his and has nothing to do with her.

I can sympathise with your case though. Africa also sees it's fair share of dodgy punters and indeed we've had two in recent years who both tried and failed to rip us off...... fortunately we sussed both of 'em out in time. - We found out later, that in the case of one of 'em, he had a loooong track record of similar behaviour in Zimbabwe and had turned over most of the better known guys who operate up there.

If you don't currently have a good hunt contract but would like one for the future, e-mail me at shakari3@mweb.co.za and I'll be happy to send you a copy of our one you could adapt for your own use.

Sounds like the African hunting version of the Nigerian scam.

I had a PH describe to me a few years ago how a low-life was going around claiming he was starting a booking agency. He managed to scam a few free hunts, never sent any business anyone's way, just enjoyed himself and moved on to the next unsuspecting soul. You need to stop this guy, right here and right now.

When, or if, you are comfortable naming names, you need to post this fool where everyone can get a good look at him.

shakari, I do believe he would have implied permission or how else would he have the CC#.

I have hunted with highlander and don't remember having an iron clad contract, he is a gentleman and I asume he believes others (buying hunts at SCI) are the same. As to having a "written contract" when people are in two different countries nothing is "fairly straightforward".

Highlander mount the trophies they will look good in your house. You must attract them as many are looking for Ron also (same reason), I hope you lucked out there.

DOJ,

I may well have misread the comment about the CC, but took the attitude that if the cardholder objected to the transaction, why authorise it in the first place and that the card might have been used to pay a deposit or something..... but I could well have misunderstood and my comment wasn't meant as a criticism of Highlander, his company or his staff etc.

Regarding the contract....... it's a sad fact that there are a very few professional complainers etc out there and they'll deliberately try to screw the outfitter and a properly detailed contract will protect both parties and (IMO) anyone in the business nowadays who operates without a contract is asking for trouble from these professional complainers & crooks. I also think a contract ensures there can be no confusion whatsoever about who pays for what and what is and isn't included. If that contract is correctly composed and Highlander can provide bank statements showing payments etc, I'm sure he'd have no problems proving his case in a US/Brit or European court. - It really isn't that difficult to prove a breach of contract if you have the proof.

I mentioned we had two examples over recent years and I was able to discover (amongst other things) that one of them has taken most of the better known Zim guys over a period of years....... it was our contract that prevented this bloke taking us the same way he'd taken everyone else. - Actually, that and a large stroke of luck on our part.

I wouldn't be in the least suprised if it was the same guy as has taken Higlander and if he'd like to PM me the name (our guy uses a variety of names) I'll be happy to confirm/deny etc.

Fortunately, the vast majority of hunters are as straight as a die! - But of course, it's that very thing that these very few flaky bastards take advantage of.......

send the SOB a suitable amount of high explosives for christmas

Hi guys
As the saying goes "I'm flat out like a lizard drinking at the moment".
The Roger Moore ,Tracks Thorough Time saga is still unresolved and I'm afraid I'm getting a tad tired of the whole thing. Which no doubt may be exactly what Mr Moore and his wife Paula are hoping for.
I still have control of his trophies, which as i said earlier gives me little pleasure as now its likely that our taxidermist will not get paid either, so no winners in NZ on that. I have more than enough trophies around the place already by all accounts.
So as our fly fishing season continues and I'm on the riverbanks most days I figure than this saga will wait until we fly into Phoenix after the SCI Reno show.
It is very frustrating being 12000mile away from this whole saga.
Thanks for your help and advice everybody, its what i wanted and its was given freely by all.
If anybody is driving thru Queens Ck Phoenix in the next few weeks, feel free to drop in at 21191 E.Lords Way and let Mr Roger Moore know that he has let down himself, his fellow hunters and his countrymen in general.
I have a long memory!

Highlander

I have used Doug Irish for Phoenix litigation for one of my companies with great results. He is not cheap, they are a AV rated firm, but he is no nonsense and will get it done for you.
You may want to begin contact with local counsel ahead of time, and actually file the action asap. His contact info is below.

I agree that you have an action for fraud- not that he promised to pay you and didn't, this would merely be breach of contract, but that he gave you the credit card for payment (spouse's) then disputed the charges themselves as 'fraudulent". Of course, there is his written submission to the credit card company as to why your putting the charge through was "fraudulent", which will be exhibit 1 in your fraud cause of action.

Free Advice-- Don't count on a meeting face to face will resolve this. I also do not take the strategy of writing a letter from an attorney. In all my litigation years (15!) I always advised clients to file and serve the complaint in cases where defendents were messing about like this.

Don't go near the guy, who knows what he will cook up "this guy from NZ came to my house and threatened me, I want him arrested"...etc.

Point is, get the ball rolling now, who knows, in 6 months this guy could be living on the streets with no assets.

It would irk me knowing he has the means, at the very least, his wife's credit line, to pay you, but will not, and is in fact lying to avoid paying (claiming fraudulent charges!).

Time to smack him one upside the head. Likely he will not have the funds to hire counsel to litigate, so this may actually turn into a collection action eg file, serve lawsuit, some discovery, a settlement, summary judgment or default, enter judgment, then collect.

More free advice- if your hunt agreements do not have a provision for attorney fees, you need to add that. In the US, attorney fees are normally not granted for a simple breach of contract, unlike the English system, the loser doesn't pay costs.

The fraud cause of action would allow you to ask for punitive (exemplary) damages and recover beyond the amount you are owed under the contract, and you costs and aggravation then could be considered.

One other piece of advice- if I were running this for you, I would counsel you to spend a few hundred dollars on a PI to run an asset/judment/criminal/civil lawsuit search on the guy, go by his house, go by his business asses his collectability, and "by accident" let him know you are after him when the PI knocks on his neighbor's doors and starts asking questions...THAT will get his attention.

All this done to the accompaniment of the Rolling Stones WHEN THE WHIP COMES DOWN

Well, I was pretty aggressive with my cases and it worked well, and that's how I would handle it- plus it can be lots of fun and who knows what you'll turn up.

OK here is Doug's contact info:

Douglas L. Irish
Partner

Lewis and Roca LLP
40 North Central Avenue
Suite 1900
Phoenix, Arizona 85004-4429
(Maricopa Co.)

Telephone: 602-262-5398
Fax: 602-734-3747
http://www.lewisandroca.com

His Martindale Hubbard listing (attorney guide and rating guide, he is AV- highest rating

Don't know about the rest of you, but I like the way this is turning. I believe this guy will be held accountable - stay on task - fight the good fight.

404 gives some good advice.

The problem is that you are taking a gamble here. If you pursue it, it is going to cost you attorney's fees. Under the assumption you get a judgment, that is no guarantee that you can collect. If this guy is a truly slippery scumbag, he may be judgment proof. It isn't that hard to do if you really want to.

On the other hand, not pursuing it will never result in collection.

Good luck.

Are you certain his name is Roger Moore? Sounds like 007! A search shows he is 60-64.

Theives of all types only care about action and reaction.
If he rips you off and you let it go, he will just figure he has made 11 thousand dollars. And he will move on to his next scam.

I have experience with some of these rich thief types.

It seems to me that since you have all his info, you could turn this over to a collection agency. They will hound him about it as well as destroy his credit. That should get his attention.

It boggles my mind that someone in the hunting community could do this to one of their brethren. Good luck man.

Bastard

I'm just back from Phoenix! the plot thinkens.

Please tell us more...

quote:

Originally posted by 308Sako:
Please tell us more...

Yes please do.

YES...YES!!

Ok highlander

So, IF the plot thickens, what is the story?

Highlander,
I just read this post, I know this guy and in my opinion he's a CUNT. If you want I can probably try some arm twisting through our local SCI chapter which he is a member of. He's a real douchbag and no 007. Just ask or even PM me and I will give it a go. I got trophy fee's paid for a guy in RSA (Phillip Bronkhorst)by a guy here that stiffed him too. Roger Moore looks like captain kangaroo with thick glasses.

Chipolopolo

Chipshot,, for a homophobe you have a certain style.
I hope he does set you loose on this dipshit.
It is a shame that a hard working outfitter who I bet busted his ass to give this guy a good hunt, is being cheated by some slimey bastard from our home state.

Bucko,
I call it like I see it.
Lifes to short to not eat dessert first.
Chipolopolo