A friend claimed to have fired 4,500 rounds at doves in a single day using but a single gun. He believes it to be a record and also that he hit on 91% of his shots he believes this too to be a record. Roughly 4,100 dead doves in a day!!!!!
I didn't catch the gun he used but understood that he was in Argentina and was a 28 Ga

Comments please.....this is about an average of firing a shell every ten seconds for 15 hours straight!!!!Is this possible???

Methinks I smell a big fish, err, pile of doves?

I am not an expert but from my little experience you will be shooting doves either at a corn field, in a flying path or near the nesting areas.

In the flying paths is where you you shoot in a high sequence, this may be when early in the morning they go to the crops or late in the evening when they go to the nests. During the rest of the day you will shoot a lot around the crops because they will be flying around because of the noise of the shotguns, they also fly to drink water and come back, but usually the high volume shooting will be at the flying path just near the crops or just near a nesting area, we call them "dormideros" (sleeping places). This places can be very good and if you stand very near one of them you will do a lot of shooting but you can spoil the place because if the shooting is too intense doves will move after a couple of days and no outfitter want to loose a dormidero, usually he do a little shooting here and a little shooting there changing the hunters of place to preserve the good places for the next group of hunters.

15 hours of stright shooting with 10 seconds intervals between shot and shot is a little too much, I can't imagine a place where you can do all that shooting without moving of area, stoping for lunch etc.

Imagine you start shooting at 6 am and you don't stop till 9 pm !!! you don't have enough sun light...so for me is just a

L

I fired about 4000 shells my very first day of Argentine dove hunting back in the 80s. However, I was a pretty good shot back then and used to competitive shooting (shoulder in shape). On another trip, I attempted to shoot 90% on doves for one case (500) mostly because the guide said it was so difficult and how few hunters really did it. I did for a case, barely, by about 1 dove. It is EXTREMELY difficult to shoot that high a percentage for that many shells. The doves are tough and often require two hits for a kill. think about it, shoot just 2 shots at one dove, that means you have to kill 17 out of your next 18 shots to maintain 90%. Certainly that can be done, especially in Argentina where picking shots is easy, but doing it for thousands of shots is a horse of a entirely different color.
I might believe the shell numbers but not combined with the percentages......eeeeehhhnnn. I'm not saying it is impossible, but it would be REALLY REALLY difficult. Frankly, unless your friend is a world champion class shooter I don't believe it and even if he is, he might be a world champion BSer.

PS: Back then the supposed record was about 3500 doves in a day, done by a guy shooting 2 autos with loaders. The doves were flying up a draw and he often could kill more than one with one shot, which counts but isn't exactly a product of skill alone. Not sure of how many shells he shot.

PPS: Day in, day out, if you can maintain in the 60 to 70% range taking all reasonable shots on doves, you're doing extremely well. I like longer tougher shots myself.

Unless he was using a belt fed, tripod mounted 28 ga., I find this highly unlikely. Having done the Argentina shoot several times, it sounds like a "big fish" story that grows each time it is told.

Geoff

Like all of us, I have heard these claims made before, and if it is not about S. American doves, then it is rainbow trout in a day, or gophers in an afternoon or pheasants in a season. When you do the arthimetric, as you have, the claims start to seem a little incredulous.

I'm not about to call bull$hit because I wasn't there. However, I find it a little hard to believe when it is accompanied by a success rate of 91%. I have shot flying game for years, and have shot with some very good shooters, and 91% is stretching it over the long haul.

I, too, shoot a lot of doves but right here in good old USA...often I will shoot two or three boxes of shells in the last hour of sunlight.....and a good day for me is to shoot 60% or so!!!! ( a REAL good day!!!!!)

To average 300 rounds an hour at 91% is a far far far far far far better bit of shooting than I have ever done.....and not even close!!!

But this is what has been claimed.....just wondering if there is a record book kept somewhere????????

I know of one fellow that shot 493 for 500 in one afternoon and the only way it was possible was to make up misses with occasional doubles. At 500 shots in one afternoon you can pick those opportunities. Not so when trying to shoot 4,500 rounds. If true it was a hell of a day.

One way to be sure; go dove hunting with him sometime and see how he shoots.

Frankly, I don´t see the pleasure of shooting in such a way. There are some places here where is entirely possible to pick the nearest and easiest shots, thus scoring very high. I used to wait in the open in the afternoon and shoot at the high incoming doves flyng at full speeed, zigzaging when seeing us. Try to get 90%, even 50% if you are so good...it´s grand sport. The number eight bird in skeet is far easier.
Regards

I see that folks are focusing in on the 91% and that was intended to be incidental to my (intended) question.....

What I was really trying to get at was the issue of firing 4,500 rounds in a day.....

Frankly folks....I couldn't raise the gun to my shoulder that many times in a day!!!! Let alone shoot it.

Let me rephrase this please.....are there really that many doves that a person (assuming he was capable physically) can shoot 4,500 rounds in a single day????

And he said it was using only one gun.....meaning someone wasn't handing him a loaded gun all day long!

I either got to tip my hat to him or wave the BS flag!!!!!

quote:

are there really that many doves that a person (assuming he was capable physically) can shoot 4,500 rounds in a single day????

Without a doubt.

But I don't beleive he did it.
Reasons:
1)even if counting birds as hit if they give any indication of being hit (feathers, flutters, etc)91% is BS, and BS on that means BS on the 4500 claim as well.
2)one gun: most likely the gun would malfunction and or break at the shooting rate necesary to acomplish this task. The time necesary to take care of this would put him out of the race.
3) If someone were to undertake this task I believe they would take the trouble to document it apropriately. There is no fun in doing this so why do it unless it is just to show that you can?

That is quite a bit of shooting, more than I can imagine. A friend of my father went for a week and he said he spent $7,000 US on shells alone. That makes for a fairly expensive hunt.

vapodog:

If your shoulder is in shape, meaning used to shooting, it is relatively easy to shoot 2500 to 3000 shells per day in Argentina, and I mean without straining or being in a rush. Standard for those who have shot there before and are just enjoying the great experience and food is at least 1000 (case in morning and evening)and I mean that is greatly restricting your shooting.

On one trip in their mid summer (about Feb) in the early 90s, when I went with my two cousins from Florida, a good friend, and about 6 others for a group of 10, (we were last minute add ons to make a party discount), we hunted a big maize field next to a river. I asked to be put in a tougher spot, not out where they were landing. They put me where they were coming off a bluff over the river towards the field. Most of the shots were fast incomers at 35 to 60 yards and very high. Wonderful shooting and great to watch them fold way up there. By about 10:30 I'd had all the fun I could stand and was about to quit when my bird counter said I was at 968 or some similar number, so I stayed a few more minutes and shot 1000 birds just to say I'd done it. I don't recall how many shells I shot, but I'm certain given the difficulty of the shots that I didn't average better than 2 out of 3 and maybe less, so that means I shot at least 1700 shells by 10:45 in the morning and was in no rush and the birds, while certainly steady, weren't flooding over me like they can in certain spots. I don't recall how many I shot that afternoon, but normally, after the first session or so, I shoot about 500 shells per session, give or take, and call it quits. So, assuming that, I shot at least 2200 shells that day and was in no rush, didn't take many of the often easy close shots, and didn't shoot all that many in the afternoon. All of my shooting was done with a Winchester 101 O/U as has been most of my shooting down there on multiple trips. I did take a Parker repro 28 one time (and a Browning Citori O/U 28 another) and it was great fun but the handling characteristics between it and the 101 are so different that switching back and forth took a few minutes to adjust. Unfortunately, I haven't been in several years now. I was going to go with John Airala on what sounded like a great duck/dove hunt last year, but I couldn't find anyone to go with me. I even offered to pay for a good friend's trip (country boy whom I knew would never go on his own) if he'd pay for his shells, but, having never been out of Texas (some would say why leave ) he just couldn't bring himself to leave his business and family. I told him he was an idiot, that I didn't just give $3000 or so away everyday, but he still wouldn't go. Oh well, son is now 12 and, with a little practice, should enjoy the trip if I can arrange one for us.

4000 shells would be relatively easy for someone in a good spot who could stand it and wanted to shoot that much IMO. My shoulders have developed a tendency towards tendinitis and I would take anti-inflammatories before and during a trip now. I doubt that I could shoot anywhere near that total anymore and really don't want to. BTW, unbeknowst to me, and I don't think they knew what I was doing since we were a long ways apart, both my cousins who were about 65 and 61 or so at that time killed a 1000 each too. Took one of them to about 12:30 but he limped in grinning to find we were waiting for him with a big pile of birds for photos.

You also must remember that, unlike here, the doves fly all day, although they do slow down in the mid day hours....but slow is a relative term. That means you might can only shoot 200 or 300 shots an hour or so if you're in a good spot.

For someone who likes dove shooting, it is one of life's better opportunities, relatively cheap considering the quantity of shooting and the quality of the experience, and should not be missed. For me, and I realize this is anathema to the African infected crowd, I put Argentine dove shooting above African plains game hunting anyday. (BTW the toughest dove or bird shooting of ANY kind that I've ever done was rock pigeons (rockies) coming over a hill in South Africa, incredibly difficult, I bet I didn't average 20% the first day) Not that I don't enjoy the African plains game hunting (I've never hunted dangerous game) but the Argentine experience is truly unforgettable with a good outfitter and hacienda. Go if you get the chance and make the chance if you can.

The shells must have been very expensive. At $10 a box thats 700 boxes or 17,500 rounds in 7 days thats 2500 rounds a day. You can do a 4 day 5 night hunt with 3000 shells included for $2500. Despite all the talk, 700 a day is the avg number of shots for hunters on trips that last more than a couple of days. After that they cool down quite fast. Awhile back I posted some pics of bleeding shoulders, not much fun in that.

Gato,
I'm ready when you are.

quote:

Originally posted by thornell:
That is quite a bit of shooting, more than I can imagine. A friend of my father went for a week and he said he spent $7,000 US on shells alone. That makes for a fairly expensive hunt.

There's an old saying that if your ammo bill isn't higher than your airfare, you haven't had any fun!

A lot of fun can be had for $7000. I wonder if all the shooting was done outdoors?

John:

I understand the license fees for the common Argentine double breasted mattress thrasher have inflated (dare I use the term) , but $7000 , the man must be a medical miracle.

I an see the headlines now "Man killed in hunting accident, insuficient penetration thought to be the cause of horrible death at the hands of the most dangerous game animal on the planet"

John,
As you know I will be huting with you in August . ( my third time with you ) Let's just see how many doves I can kill in 1 hr with my Garbi sxs 12ga. I want Gilda to load & you can count the dead birds You may report the good the bad or ugly here. The bad part is paying for all the shells Bird shooting with you is the best fun you can have & still keep your pants on

The presure is on you now! You are a very good shooter but if you have a bad day I'm going to have fun telling everybody about it.

Here's a photo that I believe was taken in Argentina. Now that's a bunch of doves.....

I wonder just how many are there?????

That was a Canadian gentleman. He shot 1500 rounds in 3 hours. I didn't count the doves but I suspect he shot around 1500 that day. He was a really good shot. Small world.

This is it.

1500 rounds

Greetings John.
That many doves? Absolutely! CAn you shoot that many with one gun? No way. It would be tough to shoot that many with two guns. One gun is going to heat up too much if you could load it enough. Your shoulder and thumbs would be rubbed raw. I doubt anyone could maintain that kind of number constantly over about a six or seven hour period.
The birds are certainly there though.
Cropduster, I certainly cant blame you for wanting Gilda around to load for you. Quite a pleasure to be around that gal, not to mention very easy on the eyes.

Mike:

It is certainly possible to shoot that many shells with one gun (you don't want to grab it by the barrels when you're shooting tho ). The kill percentages mentioned would be impossible to maintain IMO. To repeat, I shot 4000 shells in one day with a Winchester 101 o/u and we took a reasonably long lunch break with wine and and hour or so siesta. It is NOT a six to seven hour period but more like a 12 hour period. BTW, anyone who knows me knows that I don't clean my guns to death, quite the opposite, which is one reason, but certainly not the only one, why I don't shoot semi-autos most of the time. The only cleaning that 101 got in that week of shooting was you sometimes have to clean trash or accumulated powder residue out the bottom of the action so it will lock up and shoot(usually takes about 10 seconds with a knifepoint and blowing it out of there but you do have to take the barrels off) and maybe a quick spray of wd4o on the exterior of the barrels every second or third day. I use STOS on the friction points. That gun was relatively new then, besides my normal trap shooting practice and competition back then, (which used a different gun obviously)I prepared it and me for the trip by shooting blackbirds for month over rice fields. I'd shoot a case (500) in the morning and a case in the afternoon. Did that for over a month so it was broken in with about 30,000 shells. I still have the gun and it is going strong, although the action is certainly looser than it was. I haven't kept any accurate count but I'm guessing it has shot about 350 to 400,000 shells. I bought a couple of more for back up for the rest of my life and am using #2 most of the time now. Over the course of those shells it has broken one firing pin, 1 ejector hammer, and 1 ejector hammer bar (I guess that's what it is called). Neither break caused it to quit shooting but the broken firing pin would cause the occassional misfire (the point wasn't broken off, it was split in two but would still fire the round about 95% of the time). The hammer bar or ejector hammer makes whichever barrel is affected into a manual extractor but the shell is lifted up just like a normal non-ejector gun.

Compare that with a Browning Citori that I had that shot loose with less than 50,000 shells, mostly shooting blackbirds but some normal heavy load duck, goose and pheasant hunting. Browning factory said, "tough and for $175 we'll tighten it up for you". That was when the whole gun cost about $450 and was less than 2 years old. I paid them, sold the gun when I got it back, and swore off of any new Browning products. I suppose that was an exception, since I have a friend who had one of the early Citoris that has shot thousands of HEAVY duck loads and is still tight.

Point of this ramble is, I don't think I could shoot 4500 shells today out of one gun, but I certainly could have back then and I'm no superman or supershot.

Since I'm reminiscing, that whole trip, where we shot geese and a few ducks in the south for a week and then came back north and shot doves for a week was absolutely wonderful. The first day of shooting after we were returning from the maize field which was in the bend of a big creek or a little river, when we crossed over the river I got on top of the bluff which was at least 50 yards above the water level, much higher on one side than the other at that point for some reason and noticed that the doves were flying down the river course not too far above the water. Stopped and shot them for a few boxes until my fried came out of the field to join me for lunch. It was a peak shooting experience. You'd lead the dove and see the shot hit all around it (or in front or behind if you missed). Great fun and I guess the only time I've ever shot DOWN on doves.

John,
This will not be a contest with any one but me ! I know a lot of shooters better than me just thought we could have some fun with it As I stated before what ever the out come is you can post it here. Here,s what I think I can do (oh shit ) if there are lots of birds like last time. In 1 hour 14 boxes & 65% kill rate When Joe comes down I will do the same with him & post it here he is a lot better than I am & he will be shooting a Garbi 20 sxs . Let the fun begin !

And you weren't picking shots at all. You shot left to right, right to left, coming , going and everything in between. That is nice to see. It is the same thing Gato mentioned about when he asked to be moved for more challenging shots. That's where the fun is.

Hey Mike,
I hope to see you down here when Matt comes down.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnAir:
Hey Mike,
I hope to see you down here when Matt comes down.

Please be aware of doing your business with this fellow JohnAir...

This sounds like the claim by Wilt Chamberlain that he slept with 20,000 different women in his "career". Maybe in his dreams...

quote:

Originally posted by Gustavo:

quote:

Originally posted by JohnAir:
Hey Mike,
I hope to see you down here when Matt comes down.

Please be aware of doing your business with this fellow JohnAir...

I'm not sure what you mean, please explain.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
This sounds like the claim by Wilt Chamberlain that he slept with 20,000 different women in his "career". Maybe in his dreams...

= 1 woman a day for 54.8 years.

Gustavo,
Please explain your posted remark about JonAir.

Geoff

a question to you dove shooters.....do you have dogs that retrieve the birds?...they must be terribly busy!!!

And what do you do with them?...here we eat them...do you eat them there?

quote:

Originally posted by JohnAir:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
This sounds like the claim by Wilt Chamberlain that he slept with 20,000 different women in his "career". Maybe in his dreams...

= 1 woman a day for 54.8 years.

When I saw his book, I thought that may be stretching the truth a bit. He died at age 60 of congestive heart failure. Must have been too much Viagra....

Vapo,
Birds are retreived by humans. Dogs can't take that much. In the North of Argentina from Santiago del Estero on up the birds are eaten. There are more poor people there who are hungry. From Cordoba to the south it is very rare that they would eat them, they have other game in abundance that they prefer. Sometimes alternate uses are found like using them to feed pigs. The rest of the time they are buried or burned. Don't look at this from the point of view of game birds as you see them in the states. They are considered plaga (plague) in Argentina hence no season and no limit. I have pasted an article from my web site that deals with some of this.

A FEW WORDS TO THE CONCERNED

I can understand that some people would feel bad that millions of birds are being shot by sport hunters every year in Argentina. I understand because I realize that it is their nature and their instinct. I hunt for the same reasons, because it is in my nature and instinct. Let me however put into perspective the impact on dove as a species without entering into the morality of the thing. Morality is in large part a product of the culture we are raised in you know.
In Argentina there is no season on dove and no limit to how much you can shoot. There is a reason for this. The number of dove and the rate at which they reproduce is such that they pose a serious threat to the livelihood of many people. When they descend on a grain crop they will destroy around 50% of that crop. This understandably upsets the farmers who before the dove shooting industry flourished, would poison the roosts where the doves live and breed. The goal of the farmers was complete eradication of the dove. The poisoning of a large roost resulted in the killing of several million birds and the poison runoff would affect a great many other species. Since the dove shooting industry flourished in Cordoba, mass poisoning has stopped. The farmers recognize in the dove a viable source of income. A lease on a good dove roost costs what an average argentine worker makes in a year, and that is just for the shooting rights. An entire year of dove shooting by the estimated 4000 shooters who come here will kill less birds than the poisoning of just 4 roosts. In addition many major dove roosts are being saved from destruction by the dove lodge operators themselves, who purchase them, thus avoiding the cutting down of the trees and clearing of the land for agricultural use. When the dove lose their habitat they will be no more. There are easily over 300,000,000 dove in Cordoba. They nest 2 to 3 times a year and lay 2-3 eggs each time. The only real danger to them is the destruction of their habitat and poisoning. It is impossible to endanger them as a species by means of recreational hunting. As has happened many times before with many other species, recreational hunting is in fact saving them. Another factor to take into consideration is the spread of diseases in which the birds act as a vector of transmission to humans. The explosion in bird populations that results when the dove have large tracts of agricultural land to feed on, puts the human population in danger of diseases like some forms of encephalitis and flu, both quite deadly to humans. Control is a necesity, not an option.

Thanks John,

I appreciate your very articulate explanation on the necessity of culling the doves in Argentina. I will use your reference to explain to some members of my own family.

I hope that Mike and Matt will join you next year. Their company was missed on our last shoot with you. They will enjoy the shooting and accomodation immensely.

Geoff

Thanks Geoff. I look forward to meeting Matt and Mike personally and hope to see you again sometime as well. P.S. That trick You used on the baboons.... That was one of the best hunting stories I've had the pleasure of hearing.

John