Hi there guys thought you might be interested in this.

A 7 day Elephant Hunt in Botswana: $22 000
This price is for a trophy Elephant bull in the CT 27 area of Botswana. You can expect to shoot 35lbs and up.

This includes

Accommodation at one of our fly in camps
Transport whilst hunting
All meals and beverages
Services of a licensed Ph
Trophy fee
All License fees


Price does not include the flight in to the hunting area.

This offer is only available until January 2010.

Please PM me or E-mail me at safari@spiralhorn.co.za
Web: http://www.spiralhorn.mdv.co.za/
Phone:+27 76577 6292
Fax:+27 12460 8351

Adress:
South Africa
Limpopo Privince
Thabazimbi
Farm Buffelsvlei

Dear Spiral Horn Safaris
I have noticed you are advertising a hunt in Botswana - I assume this is one of the Madinare hunts. Please can I ask you to supply the name of the PH and the outfitter to our Botswana Wildlife Managment Association (BWMA) Office in Maun.
Sincerely
G.B Pollock
Executive Director ( BWMA ) Outfitters and Ph association

As well as here also...

Hi Graeme the outfitter and ph are both registered to hunt in Botswana. And they will communicate with you on the matter shortly. Thank you for your input.

If anyone would like any additional information as to who would be conducting the hunt or a list of references please feel free to contact:

Michael Muller
E-mail: chanstin@gmail.com

Or myself:
E-mail:safari@spiralhorn.co.za

Thank you for your concern
Yours sincerely
Louis van Bergen

Why not post the information here?

Hi there guys here is a list of references and the permit numbers of the trophy’s taken.

Meinhard Meyer Germany p/a Estelle Nel Taxidermy Bela-Bela South-Africa (Elephant License number 0004677A)

BJH Thomas p/a Swala Lodge at Drooge Sloot farm Bele-Bela South Africa (Leopard License number 0004254A)

JC Reed Rexburg Idaho USA (Elephant License number 00050058A)

Contact details are available from Michael Muller
E-mail:chanstin@gmail.com

Feel free to contact the above for any further information.

Hope this clears it up for everyone.
Kind Regards
Louis van Bergen

quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
Dear Spiral Horn Safaris
I have noticed you are advertising a hunt in Botswana - I assume this is one of the Madinare hunts. Please can I ask you to supply the name of the PH and the outfitter to our Botswana Wildlife Managment Association (BWMA) Office in Maun.
Sincerely
G.B Pollock
Executive Director ( BWMA ) Outfitters and Ph association

Mr. Pollock,

It looks like you jumped on this post pretty hard and fast.

May I ask why?

Thank you

Jack very good question I would like to know the answer to it as well since both the ph and outfitter that I work with in Botswana are fully licensed to act as such in Botswana .According to what I understand we are both well in your rights to sell these hunts since I am a registered outfitter in South Africa and if my college gives me the rights to sell these hunts it is our private agreement. I never said I am hunting the client I would purely go along as an observer and to make sure that my client would be happy with the way the hunt is going as for the hunt itself it would be done by the Botswana licensed ph.

We have since taken up the matter with Mr. Pollock but I personally have not received a response from him as of yet to give me clarity on the matter or why he would be so interested.
This is common practice for outfitters to help one another as colleges and friends and I cannot see any reason why there would be anything wrong with it.

Kind Regards
Louis van Bergen

I guess i don't see the problem here. It looks like Spiral is offering a hunt where he is acting as an outfitter/agent for another outfitter - working in cooperation with the Botswana outfitter. Isn't that what booking agents do all the time? I understand that PH's need to regulate one another but this seemed almost hostile. I would think a good hunt offer like this would benefit not only the hunter but the outfitter and host country. Especially in a world economy like this.

SHS/Louis:

If you will read Saeed's (the owner of this site) post at the top of this forum it states to post ALL details concerning an offered hunt.

A public request was made for the outfitter and PH's name for this hunt.

You gave references but did not answer the request. You said to contact you for details.

I am not trying to pile on you, but this goes against the spirit and intent of this forum.

Why are you reluctant to provide these names publicly? You offered the hunt on a public forum and should provide details openly and that includes the charter cost as well.

Thanks,

RCG

RCG,

You are 100% correct, the info should be supplied to us, so the readers can make informed decisions.

But that was not what Mr. Pollock was asking. He wanted that info sent to him. Almost sounding like law enforcement.

So my question really had to do with why Mr. Pollock would so expeditiously ask for license and registration please. Are there a surfeit of problem operators in Bots, that maybe we should be aware of? Do all advertised hunts need to be blessed by his organization? This too is useful info.

By the way, Kudos to Mr. Pollock for setting an earlier post strait. He pointed out that pre baiting leopard was illegal in Bots, if I recall.

So I just want to know what his concern is with this post.

And I apologize for hijacking the thread.

Hi there guy's would just like to keep everyone posted on the matter.
We spoke to the people at BWMA and they told us that everything is fine with the procedure that we are following.
Spiral Horn Safaris will still be the Outfit taking the client on the hunt but will however make use of the services of a Licensed Ph in Botswana therefore the hunt is absolutely legal. Let me go into detail a bit more for you on the matter so that there is absolute clarity. Spiral Horn safaris do the organization of the hunt in Botswana in cooperation with the other outfit If the price is low and it courses certain people to question the legality of the hunt and make a public show of it? “I am sorry just thought that it will be good to offer a well priced hunt to a potential client of Spiral Horn Safaris” the only guy who is making less money here is me. I would have appreciated it If Mr. Pollock would have pm me instead of causing confusion on a public forum.
We have tried to contact MR. Pollock once again and still have not received a response.
Guy’s once again I do not see anything wrong with offering a well priced hunt to the public.

Who is the Botswana P.H.?

I don't have any problem with what Spiral Horn is doing, but the bottom line is the outfitter and PH in Botswana should be listed in the offer. Not only does that follow one of the very few forum rules, it is just good business practice.

Louis/SHS:

Graeme has not caused any confusion concerning your offer. You have, by repeatedly refusing to name the PH/Outfitter despite numerous requests. In addition, you need to post the cost of the charter and ANY additional costs associated with this hunt offer.

What is so difficult about understanding the guidelines of this forum and respecting them?

As "gotogirl3" said, it is good business practice to do so and you are not doing yourself any favors by being evasive.

RCG

Guys, please watch space for further developments.
We are in discussion with Mr. Pollock and the BWMA. Up to this morning, we could not get hold of Mr Pollock to discuss the matter and find out what the problem might be(we could only communicate via email). According to a insider in BWMA,he acted out of place and should apologise. I believe(quoted from his pm)"Dear Mr Muller ,
The future of hunting in Botswana has been compromised by unregistered outfitters selling and hunting in Botswana - as the Executive Director acting on behalf of the legitimate and registered PH's and outfitters I will be ruthless tracking down outfitters benefiting from Botswana's resources yet not contributing to the associations that work tirelessly to safe guard the industry. As you are neither a registered PH or Outfitter with BWMA , BOGA , BOTA , HATAB or BWPA your acts may not be illegal but we will be vigilant when made aware of persons selling Botswana and Marketing Hunting to Botswana and will make the public aware of people who do not belong to a association or contribute to the industry. The President of Botswana has instructed us to Police our industry and that is what I am doing. If you wish to register with the Botswana Wildlife Association you can contact the Erika the secretary at botswanawildlife@yahoo.com.
Yours Sincerely,
Graeme Pollock"

As mentioned to Mr Pollock, I am a registered PH, abeit in South Africa,working with a well known Botswana PH. As the matter is not resolved entirely, I do not want to mention names at this stage. Feel free to contact on pm and I will gladly respond to your query.
All will be reveald in due time.
I fully endorse BWMA stance on people hunting and not contributing to Botswana's economy. I am involved in a game ranching operation in Botswana as well as South Africa ,and as such will do anything to further responsible management of game farming in these countries.

Best Regards
Michael Muller

Guys , as you can see, even Mr Pollock said that we are not operating illegal. We acted with the consent off all people involved and will continue to do so.
You can book with Spiralhorn at any time.
We look forward to receiving you.
Regards
Michael

So there ya go...MR. Pollack said it is not illegal...If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...well nevermind. No more energy expended on this 3 ring act.

Jeff

Hi guys I would first of all like to apologize if I coursed confusion on the matter.
The name of the PH is A.S Steinberg he is a licensed ph in Botswana and has got a lot of experience in hunting all of the big five .Mr. Steinberg would be the registered Outfitter in Botswana as well.

The Outfitter you book with would be Spiral Horn Safaris since I would be organizing the hunt and would be held responsible for the clients transport to the hunting area, the camp and the availability of the Botswana PH and all the other aspects related to the hunt. I would also think that the client would expect me to personally accompany him during his hunt.
The cost of the plane would differ from where the client would want to flay from. In my opinion the best would be to fly to South Africa (JHB international) and from there to the hunting area in Botswana obviously we would have to clear customs as well. The cost of the flight would be based on a fixed cost of $400 an hour for the whole plane and the commercial pilot. There is a drive in option ass well from JHB to the hunting area in Botswana but this would take a lot of time up and would not work out much cheaper. The total flaying time can only be estimated but I would think no more than 5 hours to the hunting area and back to JHB international.

I firmly believe in planning the hunt to the specifications of the client and therefore some of the arrangements would differ from one person’s requirement to another. This gives the potential client a lot of options and if anyone would be interested in the hunt it would be better to contact me personally to evaluate the needs of the client before making the arrangement according to transport, as well as type of accommodation.
E-mail:safari.spiralhorn@gmail.com

I would like to once again apologize if I caused any confusion on the matter of the hunt.

Kind Regards
Louis van Bergen

Okay, so, let me see if I have this straight:

- Louis van Bergen ("Spiral Horn Safaris") = SA Agent selling/facilitating the hunt

- Michael Muller ("Chanstin") = SA PH and also the Botswana outfitter?

- A.S Steinberg = Botswana PH conducting the hunt

Yes/No/Maybe?

Something else that is helpful and typically posted, especially for an elephant hunt, is the block/concession where the hunt will take place. I found "Madinare" as mentioned by Mr Pollock on the map but this looks like it is in eastern Bots, not the "northwest" as indicated in your ad (Edit - thank you for correcting).

The deal is to lay out all the facts/details initially. If this had been done there would have been no questions. I do this as do the other regular agents and safari operators offering hunt here. When an outfit offers a hunt but is reluctant to post details it has to make folks suspicious.

Mark

Spiral Horned Outfitters =

Details always or no deal.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Spiral Horned Outfitters =

I think that's a little much. If someone doesn't want the hunt then don't buy it. But being hostile towards a new poster trying to figure it out is a little much IMO.

Good day to you all.
Lets clarify the matter.
Spiralhornsafaris (Louis Van Bergen) SA PH and outfitter organizing the hunt
Chanstin (Michael Muller) SA PH Liason between Botswana PH and Spiralhorn
AS Steinberg Registered Botswana PH and Responsible for the logistics and paperwork in Botswana
Mmadinare is in the North-eastern Botswana
Anything else?
Michael

Should of chipped in sooner but just to give some clarification, Mmadinare is in eastern Botswana and is a community area managed by a trust made up of members from that community. This was previously a citizen hunting area and licences were sold over the counter to Botswana citizens on a first come first serve basis. The truth is that we(citizens) were able to purchase these licences directly from Dept. of National Parks at afraction of the cost that they are now available from the community which sells by public auction. The area is basically quite populated but there are definitely elephants. In the last few years I have shot 5 elephants in this area as a citizen hunt with the largest being just under 60 pounds. That being said, the quality is definitely not comparable to the areas in the north of Botswana. The rest that I've shot were all in the 30 pound range. Sadly we have been excluded from hunting this area now that South african outfitters are involved!

I thought we did clarify this by mentioning it is a Mmadinare hunt.

I will go ahead and change it in my original post to ensure any further confusion. The area no is ct 27

Hi there to everyone
I have decided to reformulate this offer since there is not enough info on the hunt and that caused confusion please except the apology on my behalf I hope this sets everyone at ease about the matter.

Botswana Mmadinare Elepahant hunt:
This hunt will be offered to the client by Spiral Horn Safari’s and the cooperation of MR. Steinberg who would be the licensed Botswana Outfitter.

Here is a clear indication of all the parties involved and their relation towards the hunt:
Spiralhornsafaris (Louis Van Bergen) SA PH and outfitter organizing the hunt
Chanstin (Michael Muller) SA PH Liaison between Botswana PH and Spiralhorn
AS Steinberg Registered Botswana PH and Responsible for the logistics and paperwork in Botswana as well as conducting the physical hunt with the client.

Price for the hunt:
Normal Price of Hunt: $25 000
Discounted Currant Price: $22 000

Price includes:
TENTED CAMP WITH ALL THE NECISARY FACILATYS
CONCESSION FEE
RESOURCE ROYALTY FEE
CHA PERMITS, 1 GUN PERMIT
7 DAYS HUNTING DAILY RATE FOR ONE HUNTER
TROPHY AND LICENSE FEE FOR ONE ELEPHANT
ALL BEVARIDGES
ALL MEALS
PH WITH FULLY EQUIPED HUNTING VEHICLE
ALL STAFF AND CAMP SERVICES.

EXCLUDED :
TAX AT AIRPORT ON AMMO
DIP PACK AND SHIP
GRATUITIES AND ITEMS OF A PERSONAL NATURE (to client’s discretion)
ACCOMODATION AND FLIGHTS PRIOR TO SAFARI DAT AND AFTER
Private flight in to our hunting area which would be charged at $400 per hour for the whole plane includes the commercial pilot the estimated flying time for the whole safari from JHB international to our hunting area is 5 hours in total please keep in mind we need to clear customs in Maun Botswana as well.

The Hunting area:
The hunt would take place in north east Botswana in the Mmadinare area please find the area no: CT 27.

Trophy Size to be expected:
One can expect to harvest a trophy Elephant bull from 35 lbs up to 6olbs. This would be up to how much time will actually be spent hunting and the skill of both the ph and client. Be aware that it has rained recently and that would make hunting a lot tougher.

Dates that the hunt would be available are from October 2009 to January 2010 this would be due to the fact that the Mmadinare hunts will be closed as from end of January 2010.

References:
Meinhard Meyer Germany p/a Estelle Nel Taxidermy Bela-Bela South-Africa (Elephant License number 0004677A)

BJH Thomas p/a Swala Lodge at Drooge Sloot farm Bele-Bela South Africa (Leopard License number 0004254A)

JC Reed Rexburg Idaho USA (Elephant License number 00050058A)

Contact details are available from Michael Muller
E-mail:chanstin@gmail.com

For any further questions or special requests
please do not hesitate to contact me.
E-mail:safari.spiralhorn@gmail.com
Web: http://www.spiralhorn.mdv.co.za/
Phone:+27 76577 6292
Fax:+27 12460 8351

Adress:
South Africa
Limpopo Privince
Thabazimbi
Farm Buffelsvlei

Kind regards
Louis van Bergen

Spiral Horn Safaris, you have been very diplomatic about the whole thing and the transparency is appreciated. Good on you!

Thank you Kukhama for your positive response I really to appreciate it. In times of uncertainty's I can’t blame people for asking questions and would do my best to answer them as politically correct as possible.

Once more thank you for the response and your input on the matter.

I apologize for the delay in responding but have just returned from Namibia.
I have corresponded with SHS and Michael through their private email and my message has been consistent : the BWMA will be vigilant in tracking down outfitters and agents benifiting from selling safaris to Botswana but not contributing to the conservation effort and the industry by becoming members of a registered association - it is not illegal at the moment but we are working with Government to legislate that outfitters/Phs and agents must be registered with a recognized assoc. ( does not have to be BWMA, can be HATAB or any other Tourism Assoc.) Botswana faces the closure of hunting and this has been largely attributed to practices that we at the BWMA have not been able to police. The BWMA has funded extensive wildlife research and monitoring and worked tirelessly to safe gaurd our industry. For this reason we are urging hunters to only hunt with registered outfitters and PH's who have been active in contributing to the conservation effort in Botswana. Namibia have just closed Leopard hunting for similar reasons ( so I have been led to believe - so please do not quote me ). The BWMA executive will be vigilant in watching for outfitters/agents/PH's not registered who advertise in the public domain and we will alert sport hunters to this fact.

For a list of members of BWMA please log on to the Facebook page for Botswana Wildlife Management Association (BWMA) , there is also information on the association and newsletters - it is open for any person to join.
Kind regards
Graeme Pollock

quote:

Originally posted by Spiral Horn Safaris:
Hi there guys thought you might be interested in this.

A 7 day Elephant Hunt in Botswana: $22 000
This price is for a trophy Elephant bull in the CT 27 area of Botswana. You can expect to shoot 35lbs and up.

This includes

Accommodation at one of our fly in camps
Transport whilst hunting
All meals and beverages
Services of a licensed Ph
Trophy fee
All License fees


Price does not include the flight in to the hunting area.

This offer is only available until January 2010.

Please PM me or E-mail me at safari@spiralhorn.co.za

Please include your full address, not just an email and a link to your site.

Not sure why my last post never appeared but it read something like this : I returned recently from Namibia hence not being able to be contacted in the Maun office - but I have replied to the emails sent by Michael and SHS - my reply remains the same - the BWMA will be vigilant in responding to agents/PH's/ outfitters selling Botswana - this may not be illegal at this time ( we await legislation to change this ) but we are making hunters aware that the BWMA is fighting to keep hunting alive in Botswana and we require the co-operation of all who benifit from hunting in Botswana. We therfore strongly recommend that hunters wishing to book a hunt in Botswana - only use registered outfitters. This is for 2 reasons the funds from membership is used to enhance the conservation effort in Botswana - such as the P30 000-00 we recently donated to the Anti Poaching unit in Maun, and secondly the BWMA is the facilitator of many research programs in Botswana aiming at monitoring wild life populations - this we do in conjunction with amongst others - the Predator Research Group , KCS, and the DWNP , UoB and private consultants. All this work requires funding which is raised from the membership. The BWMA works with the quota setting commitee and makes the annual motivations, this includes improoved elephant quota , it was BWMA that paid for the research that saw the uplifting of the moritorium on Lion hunting in 2005. ( only to be closed in 2008).
I have been told that Michael has applied for membership to BWMA which is good news.
Regards
Graeme Pollock

My question is simple: Is Sprial Horn legit to be operating in Bots or not? Plain and simple. I might want to book with them. Their representative comes across as more than willing to communicate openly.

So, are they legit or not?


I want to book a hunt, kill my trophies and come home.

No drama please.

I do realize that this is a discussion forum, so, maybe I should just tune-out on these threads.

JW

Graeme?
I have a firm understanding for your feelings on the matter of conservation and game management so there we agree totally. As a South African outfitter I am sure that I can't become a member of the BWMA without having my own land or private concession in Botswana so according to what I understand it would be impossible for me to meet you half way on the matter. Mr. Steinberg is a Botswana citizen and ph and we work together on certain matters and have got a good relationship. He offered these hunts to me to sell which is well within his rights so we are not criminals my friend it is mealy networking and trying to offer a good deal to a client. As I see it Botswana benefits from this because of the fact that more people hunt in the country and this leads to more money in the hunting industry so more funds available for management of game. We are purely networking Graeme most businesses do that and I am sure that the public can appreciate the fact that some people are really in this industry to help each other. If there would be a problem with my post or if it is misleading in any way I do apologies for it and would gladly put the matter straight as I am sure we did. I honestly hope that you can understand the fact that I am not trying take anything away from Botswana Outfitters who I largely have a great deal of respect for we are mealy selling a hunt for a good price with a Botswana ph who I trust and enjoy to work with.

Please feel free to contact me if I can help in any way.
Web: http://www.spiralhorn.mdv.co.za/
E-mail: safari.spiralhorn@gmail.com

Kind Regards
Louis van Bergen

mumbo jumbo mumbo jumbo.

Run away! run away!

Guys the hunt is legal I waited for Mr. Pollock to knowledge this once again. I have no desire to argue on the matter any further those are the facts and that is the end of it.

Please PM me or E-mail me at safari@spiralhorn.co.za
Web: http://www.spiralhorn.mdv.co.za/
Phone:+27 76577 6292
Fax:+27 12460 8351

Adress:
South Africa
Limpopo Privince
Thabazimbi
Farm Buffelsvlei

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
My question is simple: Is Sprial Horn legit to be operating in Bots or not? Plain and simple. I might want to book with them. Their representative comes across as more than willing to communicate openly.

So, are they legit or not?


I want to book a hunt, kill my trophies and come home.

No drama please.

I do realize that this is a discussion forum, so, maybe I should just tune-out on these threads.

JW

Dear Jeff ,

The PH Simon Steinberg is a licensed PH in Botswana - SHS are not - due to the Wildlife Act not being updated as yet - all hunts in Botswana are legal if you hunt with a licensed PH irrespective of who sells the hunt.
All BWMA , BWPA , HATAB members sign a code of conduct and are bound by the constituion of the associations - for that reason we recommend hunters only book with members of a recognised and registered association.
I do not know SHS or any other party associated with this advertised hunt other than Simon Steinberg . In response to SHS statement that the country benifits from hunts sold even if not through the association - is correct but the only reason hunting is still happening in Botswana is due to the tireless work of the Associations - so if you are benifiting from hunting Botswana - come on guys put something back into the bodies that make it possible, the threat is real - hunting in Botswana's concessions is closeing - without a full effort by the associations - hunting will close - so my point of view is simple - support those fighting to keep hunting open or dont.
I am simply repeating myself so I think we have flogged this horse enough.
Graeme Pollock
saf.bots@info.bw
Botswana Wildlife Management Association =
E-mail Address(es):
botswanawildlife@yahoo.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Spiral Horn Safaris:
Graeme?
I have a firm understanding for your feelings on the matter of conservation and game management so there we agree totally. As a South African outfitter I am sure that I can't become a member of the BWMA without having my own land or private concession in Botswana so according to what I understand it would be impossible for me to meet you half way on the matter. Mr. Steinberg is a Botswana citizen and ph and we work together on certain matters and have got a good relationship. He offered these hunts to me to sell which is well within his rights so we are not criminals my friend it is mealy networking and trying to offer a good deal to a client. As I see it Botswana benefits from this because of the fact that more people hunt in the country and this leads to more money in the hunting industry so more funds available for management of game. We are purely networking Graeme most businesses do that and I am sure that the public can appreciate the fact that some people are really in this industry to help each other. If there would be a problem with my post or if it is misleading in any way I do apologies for it and would gladly put the matter straight as I am sure we did. I honestly hope that you can understand the fact that I am not trying take anything away from Botswana Outfitters who I largely have a great deal of respect for we are mealy selling a hunt for a good price with a Botswana ph who I trust and enjoy to work with.

Please feel free to contact me if I can help in any way.
Web: http://www.spiralhorn.mdv.co.za/
E-mail: safari.spiralhorn@gmail.com

Kind Regards
Louis van Bergen[/QUOTE

Any person can become a member and supporter of the BWMA - we have USA and RSA members who dont live or have property in Botswana as members - and many are applying so as to support us in our endeavour to keep hunting open in Botswana.
You are also missing my point - your selling hunts in Botswana is legal and the country benifits from the tourism inputs - but you are only able to sell hunts to Botswana because it has been kept open by the commited Assoc. All we ask is that if you are benifitng from selling hunting to Botswana - join an assoc - again it does not have to be ours there are others - HATAB and BWPA ( though they are not directly involved in concession hunting - but they do play a major role in our country).
And yes you are the scapegoat at present on this forum - but I can assure you we are tracking down parties and inviting them to join - I walked the SCI and DSC aisles this year - and anybody with Botswana appearing on their stand was approached and told about our need to join the cause.]