Following a thread about an Elephant hunt in Botswana posted by a South African outfitter, I think the following thread might shed some more light on the subject (please note that I do not know any of the role players in the other thread):

1. South Africa is bust as a DG hunting destination, safe for some good leopard and Buffalo hunting in SPECIFIC (read few) hunting areas, and of course white Rhino. It is, because of this limited availability, that DG is also VERY expensive, more so than our neighboring countries.

2. Outfitters that hunt mostly PG will get clients that have been to SA 3-4 times, and collecting most of what the client can hunt in South Africa. Now this client wants a different experience, and hunt DG. He informs his PH/outfitter in SA to look for the BEST deal, because by now, they are buddies as well. Outfitter goes to "other" African countries to find said animals. It happens to most of us here in South Africa that hunts full-time.

3. Now how does this work?

Firstly
We find a LEGAL operator in the country where we would like to conduct the hunt. Our outfit FIRST visits the hunting area, and inspect the camps and the hunting terrain. Meet this outfitter. Drink whiskey (or whatever rocks your boat) together and see if you get along.

Secondly
Prices are discussed and agreed upon. The trick here is to MAKE SURE that the price you are going to sell to your client is the same prices he is selling to his clients, so that no one feels he is "done in". This is the hard part, but most of these outfitters come to the table with about 15% for the South African outfitter. For ourselves it is VERY important to have ALL cost reflected and included, as we operate the same way with our clients. The golden secret being "NO SURPRISES ON PAY DAY"

Thirdly
Trophy export procedures and cost are discussed, and the South African outfitter must make an informed decision on whether he would then make use of the partner in this other country or not.

4. Taking all into consideration....

The above is aimed at an EXCISTING client of the SA outfitter wanting a DG with his buddy in say Moz or Zim for an Ellie or Buff.

What happens 9 out of ten times, is that the "host" outfitter in this "other" country, asks the SA outfitter to market some hunts for him. That is when SA outfitters start advertising for "host" outfitter.

Now, will it be wise for the SA outfitter, who will conduct the hunt in partnership with the "host" outfitter to say WHO the owner/holder of the concession is? I do not think so....in doing this the SA outfitter will leave open the backdoor for potential clients to contact the "host" outfitter directly hoping for a better deal. As the host outfitter is selling the hunt for the same price as the SA outfitter (See above with pricing) both outfitter might loose the potential client, as the guy did not get the "better" deal he was hoping for.

It must be said that the information given in the advertisement must contain the FULL detail of WHERE the hunt will be conducted, and WHO will be the legal registered Professional Hunter to conduct the hunt.

It is then up to the prospective client to do his homework and decide if he wants to book or not.

There are HUNDREDS of hunts being booked like this every year.

IT is the same principal with me selling my PG hunts here on AR. I say where we are going to hunt and who the PH(s) will be, but it is not expected from me (nor should it) to say who the owner of the land is, as I have FULL LEGAL SIGNED hunting rights, as required by my government.

I get "other" SA outfitters every year, that bring their clients to come and hunt on my concessions and they market as such. Not naming my outfit, but me as a PH if I'm needed as a PH.

You can call it all you want, networking, partnership, anything....the bottom-line is that if done legally and properly, there should be nothing wrong with it.

Take note that Infinito Safaris, as a South African outfit, have ASSOCIATES in Namibia, Zimbabwe and Mozambique.

We have however, in our year end meeting, decided that we will concentrate on what we do the best and most of as a business, and that 9s to hunt our own country. We will ONLY organize and conduct hunts in "other" countries on request.

Old time AR members will note that we refrained from advertising DG hunts in "other" countries on AR, since the start of this year.

Clients, there is nothing wrong booking with a SA outfitter hunting in "other" countries. Just ask a bit more questions, and get in contact with ref. in you own country that has done the same and hunted the same area in the last 2 years.

We hope this might shed some more light on this issue. Outfitters are welcome to agree or disagree, but I think I summed it up pretty good.

Charl says he thinks he's summed the situation up pretty well and he's quite right. He has. In fact, I'd say he's done it a lot better than pretty well.

Generally it's called cover hunting and it's been a perfectly legitimate way of operating since time immemorial...... or at least, as long as African hunting and PH licences have existed.

I'll add that it also happens the other way round in that PHs from other countries also bring their clients into SA to hunt.

As Charl says, it's perfectly acceptable and very common practice throughout most if not all parts of huntable Africa.

Of course, it cannot be denied that there is also a small element that operate in other countries without proper/legal cover hunting arrangements but that's a different matter. It happens in most if not all African countries and needs to be policed by the legal operators........ but as Charl says, when cover hunting is done correctly, it's perfectly legitimate.

I think another advantage of this is when you have someone you know and trust say in SA book you a hunt in another country you have a lot less to worry about on how that hunt will go. I know one of the biggest concerns here in the states is when it come time to wire several thousand dollars to a complete stranger to book a hunt somewhere you have never been and do not know anyone there. Even if you have received verbal and/or written recommendations, these usually come from a complete stranger.

Thank you for your positive comments. Finally some-one who clearly know what he is talking about. We as a group of associates have done nothing to harm the hunting industry, but were made out as a bunch of cowboys going to all lengths to sell a elephant hunt that according to Kukhama does not exist. Please refrain from making comments on a subject that you have clearly no knowledge of. You have my contact details, Please contact me directly if you have anything further to say on the matter.
To set the record straigt, Mmadinare is a problem area. Elephants here are available till the end of January 2010. The area are fairly populated with lots of elephants,which are in conflict with the humans. as you have mentioned, big elephants can be hunted here, but the norm is smaller tusks,and that was how this was marketed, the experience and not nescerally the biggest trophy.
Why would we put animals up for hunting and risk everything on a illegal hunt?
Thank you again for setting the record straight on how things are working in our industry.
Regards
Michael

Michael,

Bwana, I don't really think anyone was suggesting the offer was an illegal hunt just that there appeared to be a bit of confusion etc.

This was probably made worse by the fact there have been one or two recent offers posted here that were 'murky' to say the least.

Either way, I'm glad to see it's sorted out now.

Listen Chanstin, either you cant read or english is not your first language!! I didnt say that these hunts dont exist, all I said was that this was a CITIZEN area previously, meaning licences can only be sold to Botswana nationals. I know more about this area and these hunts than you will ever know. I know for example that this hunt will be conducted from fly camps, know your cost of the trophy fee etc. I will disclose if you require?

Furthermore, I have no working involvement with the hunting industry but I am a member of BWPA(Botswana Wildlife Producer's Association)through my farm, so there is no reason for me to state anything other than the facts. I love my hunting as does everybody on this site, and thats ALL I am, an individual who likes hunting!!Had no intention of hijacking this thread but will not sit back to your misdirected bs.

Hi there guy’s thank you for setting the record straight I appreciate everyone’s input.

Kukhama I would like to apologize to you as well this came out wrong thank you for jour help on the matter and for providing us with more info. I think everyone is just a bit tired of the whole story and I am sure that Chanstin misunderstood you.

Kind Regards
Louis van Bergen

Boys, take your pissing match to your thread please. I'm trying to get some positive input from people about this, not bitch slapping matches.

Charl - Good explanation of how the industry works with regards to PH's / Outfitters operating in other African countries.
If both PH's / Outfitters who are working together are upfront, honest and ethical in their dealings with each other, then there will be no problems with all concerned !
You hit the nail on the head - and summed it up pretty good.
I have been operating in this way for many years in various other African hunting areas - and never had a problem with the people I deal with or complaints from my clients with regards to arrangements !
Its an accepted arrangement between Outfitters/PH's and has been going on as long as hunting has been around !

Charl - Thank you for taking the time to "sort this out". It says a lot about your operation. There are bussiness men and then there are crooks. Unfortunately, some people get the two confused.

Thank you for the kind words.

I assumed this subject will get a bit more input. Goes to show what happens with "assumption".....

quote:

I assumed this subject will get a bit more input.

Hi Charl, I appreciate the post and outline, I think it is a responsible, honest description of how and why things work the way they do. If looking for feedback though, per your previous posts, it seemed to me like you are looking for just "positive input"!!! And I don’t know that AR has a lot of people who routinely hunt like this.

I think, as you have probably already identified, AR is not the greatest place to advertise these types of hunts. The members are experienced, and there are many eyes watching from within the hunting community.

While I have nothing hugely negative to say, I just don't see the point of anybody booking with a South African firm to hunt in neighboring countries - WHEN the SA PH needs a locally licensed PH to conduct the hunt. I’ve had SA PH’s make the offer, especially after my first plainsgame hunt, but even then it just seemed silly as identifying the reputable local outfitters is so easy these days.

If the SA PH is licensed in that country and chooses to reside in SA, that’s another story (although there has been much said in the past regarding "Suitcase PHs"), as are the Zim PH's hunting in Tanzania and elsewhere, where they are licensed and mostly working for another outfitter. And I can think of other specific examples too of where it makes sense for certain outfitters and situations.

I realize that some clients develop close ties with their PH's and enjoy hunting with them elsewhere, even if the SA PH is along as more of a host or companion. And if they choose to hunt this way, that’s cool. When I was looking to hunt CAR, I tried to book the hunt with a PH I knew from Zim as I was uneasy about traveling to CAR. Perhaps some guys feel the same way about Zimbabwe or Mozambique that I felt about CAR (although in this case he was licensed for that country). But still, it is hard for me to see the value.

The problem for us hunters are the shysters out there, who are not always that easy to spot. So many of the issues over the years in neighboring countries (Moz, Zim, Namibia) seem to have stemmed from dodgy SA-based outfitters, although I am sure that a higher percentage of the problems are brought to light when a SA firm is involved versus "one of their own".

From a SA's standpoint, the reasons to develop external relationships are obvious, and I’d maybe do the same thing if I were in these shoes. Although, I personally think the better approach these days might be to develop relationships that would allow me to send my clients (that I’d otherwise lose) to trusted outfitters, and at least get a booking fee, and retain them for when they decide to come back and hunt SA (as I plan to!) or refer friends.

Again, nothing tremendously negative to say and it is not my intention to dispute anything in your post nor any of the others or be confrontational...just some ramblings/input from my perspective from the outside looking in.

Cheers,

Bill

Charyl, "Thanks" for your explanation. As a two-time PG hunter, I too am considering a dangerous game hunt. Good info along with sound reasons for the info!

Mike

Charl,

Thanks for the explanation. I am not the atypical hunter on this site. I have been on one PG hunt and have another one booked. Cape Buffalo is what originally got me interested in Africa and I still hope to do it someday. I can see the same value in booking through an outfitter that I know as booking through an agent here for a hunt there. I would prefer to deal with someone I know.

Thanks,
Charles

Bill C.,

I can share with you an example of why one would hunt in another country with a ph from sa.

Having hunted with this ph I had come to trust his judgement and honesty.

The hunt was in a country north of sa on a concession controlled by a South African who had been of great service to the people in this area.(providing medical care and helping to establish and maintain schools).

Many of the ph's were required to be indigenous people who spoke little english and the one I had ate like a dog and was a crude and unsocialized person, the other one was boorish, drank to extreme and provided camp beer in quantity to the camp staff.

Had it not been for the sa guys imposing a bit of order and decorum to this program we would have had to abandon ship. As it was we were able to enjoy a great area and get our buf two years in a row.

Again thanks for the input.

Bill, thanks for the reply, and I can not find anything wrong with what you said. It makes perfect sense. I was actualy hoping for some negative input, as I think I explained the "positive" side of it well enough.