Folks,

Many of you might well have seen the previous discussion on this issue and as a result of that, Steve Turner and I put our heads together to try to work out what the true official line was.

As part of that, I managed to contact who I'm told is now the decision maker on these issues and below is a copy of the emails between us...... and below that, my comments.

Dear Anton,

Can I please ask you to tell me if BA now permit sporting rifles of calibres that have in years gone by, been used as military calibres such as .308 & 30.06 etc to travel with passengers and also can you please confirm that the new statement on the BA website that now says passengers may now pack (max 5 kgs) of ammunition into their rifle case is correct.

Look forward to hearing from you,

Best regards

Steve Robinson
www.shakariconnection.com

Dear Steve,

Thanks for your email.

I can confirm that passengers may pack up to a max 5kg of ammunition in accordance with appropriate host state regulations.

A claibre of .308 is considered a Munition of War by the UK CAA, but can be considered for uplift by BA providing certain criteria are met. For further information you should refer to your local BA office.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards and good luck!

Anton

You'll note he didn't answer my question.

Hi Anton,

Thanks for getting back to me.

What I really need is a definitive explanation or wording of regulations or criteria to ensure the pax does not arrive at the airport and then find his firearm is refused to travel.

These guys can easily be spending several thousand dollars a day for their trip and if they're refused travel, they then have to either leave their firearm with customs etc and travel without it (and therefore can't hunt) or take the firearm home and miss their flight and lose very expensive hunting days.

If I can tell them what is and isn't allowed to travel and/or what criteria they have to fulfill, then everything will go smoothly, for BA, the passenger and the safari company.

Look forward to hearing from you,

Best regards

Steve

Steve,

We are able to authorise the carriage of firearms (both sporting and munitions of war), but approval is considered at the time of reservation. I can say that in the case of, for example, a passenger carrying a .308 for sporting purposes it would be unusual if we refused carriage.

Kind regards,

Anton

Again, you'll note he didn't answer my question

This next one was sent 3 times and not replied to.

Hi Anton,

Thanks for getting back to me and I do appreciate your help on such a confusing matter.

Just to check that I'm understanding it right. Am I correct in saying that when the pax books, he should have an entry put into the comments section of his booking that he's travelling with sporting firearms of whatever calibre such as .308 or 30.06 etc?

If so, does he or can he get anything in writing such as a hard copy of the approval and if so, from whom?

The reason I ask is that if he doesn't have some kind of approval in writing, the check in agent can just refuse him and then he's stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea.

Can I also ask if that statement on the BA website that says pax may now pack their ammunition into their rifle case is correct please?

Thanks

Steve


I can only assume that my last messages were ignored because he doesn't want to give me a definitive answer because by doing so he can be quoted in a debate with check in etc and thereby possibly land himself in the smelly brown stuff with the management.

Whether you choose to fly BA with an ex military calibre is entirely up to you but I'd suggest it's fairly plain that they simply won't commit themselves to guaranteeing they'll allow them to travel and it's highly unlikely you'll get anything in writing from them before you travel..... which in reality means that it's largely going to be up to the individual check in agent you happen to deal with.

Therefore, IMO, you travel with them at your own risk.

You'll also notice he repeatedly ignored my question about the statement on their website on the issue of ammo in rifle case and my request to tell me what criteria had to be fulfilled to ensure the airline would accept ex military calibres.

My thanks to Steve Turner for his help and professionalism.

I would avoid travelling on BA at any cost.

It might be interesting to see what the results would be if a few people in different areas/countries contacted their local BA office and asked (and pursued) the same questions and published the different answers here.

Steve,

I realize you have a lot invested in your website being the last word in all safari related subjects and you want to make sure you have put out the most correct info but I don't think your correspondence with Anton at BA proves much except that Anton does not want to personally commit on anything.

I've also done some research. Historically and at the present time BA has not refused carriage of any sporting arms that Gracy Travel has requested pre approval for regardless of caliber. I don't take chances when traveling nor do I encourage clients to.

I do encourage clients to use BA because the service is good and mostly because they have the best record of any airline servicing Africa when it comes to luggage/guns arriving with the passenger. Shawn Kennedy at Gracy told me she has never had a client that booked on BA not arrive with his/her guns. This is as opposed to many luggage nightmares on SAA and Delta.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Steve,

I realize you have a lot invested in your website being the last word in all safari related subjects and you want to make sure you have put out the most correct info but I don't think your correspondence with Anton at BA proves much except that Anton does not want to personally commit on anything.

I've also done some research. Historically and at the present time BA has not refused carriage of any sporting arms that Gracy Travel has requested pre approval for regardless of caliber. I don't take chances when traveling nor do I encourage clients to.

I do encourage clients to use BA because the service is good and mostly because they have the best record of any airline servicing Africa when it comes to luggage/guns arriving with the passenger. Shawn Kennedy at Gracy told me she has never had a client that booked on BA not arrive with his/her guns. This is as opposed to many luggage nightmares on SAA and Delta.

Mark

Mark,

If you're so sure, why not email or have Gracey's email your or their local office and ask the same questions I did and pursue the matter in an attempt to get a definitive statement on the subject and post the results here?

If others also do the same, we'll then be able to compare statements and see if they have a definite policy, if they know what that policy is and whether they're prepared to put something in writing to the effect thay they will or will not allow these firearms to travel or not BEFORE the hunter arrives to check in for his flight to Africa.

ADDED.

I have to say I'm not too sure about the accuracy of your statement of BA having the "best record of any airline servicing Africa when it comes to luggage/guns arriving with the passenger".

The reason I say that is BA require the comment of 'travelling with firearms' or similar comment to be entered into the comments section of the booking and it's always been a common error with check in agents to enter the firearms tag number(s) into that section instead of the correct section...... For a tag to be 'clear to load' the computer programme requires 3 pieces of information to be entered. Pax name, seat number & baggage tag number. If even one of those pieces of info is absent from the correct section of the booking, the computer will show the baggage tag as 'not clear to load' and it will then be sent back to the baggage hall for further security clearance and sending as a 'rush bag' on a later flight.

The reason the system was instigated was an incident where a bag that should have been refused travel was allowed to travel and that resulted in the Lockerbie incident. The original computer program was christened LIBRA which stood for Local Inventory Baggage Reconciliation Authorisation..... it's since been replaced and renamed. The same system (or more accurately, collection of programs) could also be used for many other security related issues.

The reason I know this is because I was involved in it for a while.

Like you, I like to travel BA but I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them when it comes to firearms or ammunition.

quote:

Like you, I like to travel BA but I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them when it comes to firearms or ammunition.

Steve,

Your personal feelings do not negate the fact that Shawn's (Gracy Travel) clients arrive with their guns and luggage if they fly BA. The luggage/guns do not arrive on a regular basis if they fly Delta or SAA. I've already had 5 clients this year have their luggage delayed that flew Delta and SAA plus yesterday I spoke to a guy who had his guns lost by Delta for over 3 weeks this year. They even sent his guns back to Africa before finally being delivered to his home. This kind of service only makes me more convinced that BA is the way to go if you want your safari travel to be seamless.

Mark

I have used BA 2X and will do so again. I have used Delta and SAA several times and am done with them. I guess I'm a slow learner!

I wouldn't fly with BA if the seats were first class, and free...
You cannot encourage rude and malicious behavior
by patronizing them. Send them Email and explain why you choose not to utilize their services.
It might not help, but I feel a lot better.

I'd travel by freighter before I'd fly bastard airlines.

Rich
DRSS

Mark,

Like I said,

If you're so sure, why not email or have Gracey's email your or their local office and ask the same questions I did and pursue the matter in an attempt to get a definitive statement on the subject and post the results here?

If others also do the same, we'll then be able to compare statements and see if they have a definite policy, if they know what that policy is and whether they're prepared to put something in writing to the effect thay they will or will not allow these firearms to travel or not BEFORE the hunter arrives to check in for his flight to Africa.

I've also got to say, I have very serious doubts that Gracey's or any other travel agent for that matter would take the trouble and go to the expense of surveying every customer as to whether their bags/firearms arrive at the intended destination on time and then work out percentages etc.

My point is that BA's reluctance to commit themselves to a firm policy about this particular issue means that one runs a larger risk when travelling on BA with ex military calibres than with most other airlines who appear to have a better defined policy.

I'm not suggesting the other airlines are particularly better or worse, just that BA's reluctance to establish a firm policy means that the decision is far too often left to check in agent to decide...... I will say that most of the problem appears to occur in UK airports rather than outstations and I'd say the greatest chance of firearms being offloaded is as they transfer through those UK airports.