I had two gentlemen stop at our gun counter the other day that were traveling by NW Airlines to Canada. They told me that NW and TSA told them that they should carry their rifles in a case with only a TSA accessible lock. They should specifically not have external locks, because TSA would need access to inspect the entire time from drop off at the airport to pick up at destination. If they put on external non TSA locks, TSA would most likely destroy the case to check the firearms at some point after they had been cleared. These guys were adamant that they spoke with both NW and TSA. The concept goes counter to what I find on TSA website, and my own experience. Seems wrong to have firearms accessible to anyone after they are cleared. I have noticed that we are getting gun cases with only TSA locks and no method to attach separate locks. Something out there that I missed? Thoughts?
Thanks
Bfly

thems the new rules. All those old cases with external locks are no longer suitable. I just bought a case with tsa locks for my most recent trip. This is the post 9/11 world we live in, might as well get use to it.
Steve

This has previoulsy been cussed and then rediscussed --- go to the TSA website -- there is nothing there about TSA locks -- rules "appear" to still be the same.

I flew NW Airlines to Canada last November with external locks without any problems. I guess it could have changed.???

I use an SKB golf club case. TSA has opened it and re-locked it two or three times. I would guess that they have keys to a lot of commoon luggage locks.

Last fall, I flew from DFW to Gander, Newfoundland. Upon arrival, my gun case and its contents were intact, but the external padlocks were gone. Inside the case was a note from TSA stating that they had to destroy the locks to "re-inspect" the contents, presumably while I was waiting at the boarding gate at DFW. They could have paged me via intercom, and I could have returned to TSA and openned the case with my key, but that option was apparently too much bother for them. The note plainly stated that I would not be reimbursed for the lost padlocks.

On my return flight back into the states, I bought two flimsy baggage locks from a giftshop in the Gander airport to get legal--these were no stouter than a paperclip. Naturally, I had no problem getting back.

My take on this adventure--and many others over the years--is to realize that ALL travel with firearms is subject to the whims of the individual inspector on duty that day. So, I try to maintain some composure and a sense of humor. The travel is often more memorable than the hunt....

Dave

TSA at DFW are horrible. The supervisor would not let me check my rifle because my lock "was not TSA certified." Whatever that meant and walked off. I had a tuffpak and of course arriving in JoBerg there were 8 to 10 of them there with no problems....I had to go to Bass Pro and buy another one at the last minute. Ridiculous. I am glad we got there early so I had time to do all of this.

Last Aug., flew to Fairbanks with locked tuffpack.....TSA called me in Anchorage (during flight change to Fairbanks) to tell me my guncase was NOT declared as such, and was unlocked. Utter Bullshit!!. Then I got cert. letter from TSA, stating I was to be fined 500.00. I challenged this. I and their lawyer (a decent type) had many conversations. Finally, he stated that TSA/Anchorage had sent conflicting info about my Tuffpack ....and Homeland Security would not pursue the charge. All this took weeks, and alot of effort (on my as well as the TSA lawyer's part). Certainly TSA has a tough job; society has become a very dangerous place everywhere on Earth. But....seems to me that TSA could hire people with reliability.

Okay, guys. Go to www.fedjobs.gov. Look at the plethora of openings for TSA/Homeland "Security". Check the education/experience qualifications and pay scale. If you recruit and pay for janitors, you're going to get janitor-level employees.

TSA line personnel generally have no clue about the actual regs they are administering. Sometimes the supervisiory personnel does, but usually, they just do whatever the next guy above them told them -- which may or may not be based on actual TSA written information.

I have had extraordinarily good, common sense service from some TSA agents (maybe a decent guy whose old job was outsourced to India), and similarly poor (and non-regulation) service from others (typically 30-day wonders who, having reach day 31, have now held this job the longest of any in their careers).

When I travel with firearms, I print the latest information from BOTH the airline's webpage (for recalcitrant or uninformed airline agents) and the latest from the TSA website on transporting guns and ammunition. Fortunately, I haven't had to pull it out to explain the airline/TSA's own regulations to them, but it is nice to have this information in hand when you meet up with a dumb/recalcitrant agent of either species. They won't respond affirmatively to the printed information, but having no capacity in written language, they will usually call a supervisor who, out of fear of appearing totally incompetent in the face of someone who not only knows and possesses the actual policies, will relent and follow the written policies out of fear that such a person will also know where to find the supervisor at the next level.

By the way, one of those "common sense" good guys with TSA did me the favor of wrapping official "TSA INSPECTED" tape around my gun case and over the locks, in effect sealing it for purposes of tamper detection. Guess what? the tape was still in place two days and three continents later when I claimed my guns. If you can, get the TSA to tape your case. It can't hurt, and discourages "re-inspection" down the road by some yokel who mainly wants to see what kind of gun you have.

There is a notice on the Northwest Ailines baggage regs concerning firearms checked as baggage, that they "reccommend" TSA type locks be used on firearms cases now.

How smart is it to let untold thousands of government employees access to my firearms and valuables?

quote:

TSA at DFW are horrible. The supervisor would not let me check my rifle because my lock "was not TSA certified." Whatever that meant and walked off. I had a tuffpak and of course arriving in JoBerg there were 8 to 10 of them there with no problems....I had to go to Bass Pro and buy another one at the last minute. Ridiculous. I am glad we got there early so I had time to do all of this.

I had the opposite experience at DFW this May. The Lufthansa girl wanted me to have a TSA lock on the pelican case but the TSA guy said regular padlocks were fine. It seems like requirements vary based on the agent you get.

Just in case, I carried 2 sets of regular padlocks and also TSA locks so I could put on whatever it took to get the gun case on the plane.

Scott

quote:

Originally posted by TexasHunter:
TSA at DFW are horrible. The supervisor would not let me check my rifle because my lock "was not TSA certified." Whatever that meant and walked off. I had a tuffpak and of course arriving in JoBerg there were 8 to 10 of them there with no problems....I had to go to Bass Pro and buy another one at the last minute. Ridiculous. I am glad we got there early so I had time to do all of this.

I had no problems at all at DFW at the end of May. I stuck the "unloaded" note in the Tuffpak, they ran it through the x-ray machine a couple of times, and I was on my way.

I guess I was just lucky.

If one stops and thinks about it, this could lead to a real security nightmare.

You now have people in the secure areas of the airport with access to both firearms and ammunition. Suppose a TSA worker is sympathetic to causes supportive of terrorists? Or they decide to supplement their income? And what about the possibility of former TSA employees or baggage handlers getting the TSA combinations or keys?

And if anything untoward did happen, it would be the firearms that got the blame and not TSA. It would probably lead to a ban on transporting firearms on commercial flights.

Even with more secure non TSA locks, it is a little disconcerting that there are tools readily available within the secure areas of airports to cut or drill out locks. How secure are these tools? Are they locked up where only a supervisor with a witness can acces them, or are they able to float around at will?

Jim- You center punched it in your second paragraph! How long can it be before we are all renting "camp" weapons? I really do think Harry and Tuffpack are on top of it with the new system. I used TSA's on my trip this year just because it could spare me a problem. Who I REALLY feel for are you road warriors who deal with these folks multiple days per week. A half dozen or so trips each year gives me a belly full of our airport "security".

Thanks guys.
Jim hit my concern. Giving a lot of people in airports full access to firearms and ammunition does not meet my definition of security. It sounds extremely dangerous to me. It makes me wonder how many guns are going to diasppear or get damaged. It is up to the NRA and similar organizations to get after the overzealous bureaucrats.
In the meantime, I guess I'll just tell people that they have options. Call their airlines and TSA. Make copies of their most recent regs and websites and carry them with them. And that if they don't use TSA locks, there may be complications that could get messy and expensive.
Thanks again.
Bfly

Maybe it isn't such a bad idea to put a spare set of padlocks in the case with a note to TSA to use them if they cut the old ones.

How would one go about getting TSA-type locks on an SKB or Pelican guncase? I have a bicycle cable lock fixed up through the handle around an outside groove for added security. If they force open the case, I have three extra locking hasps (from when one broke and SKB sent me a pack) replacements. The combination is right on the bike lock, covered up with a bit of Gorilla tape, just a way to keep it closed if they force it open between Houston, Chicago and DC.
BNagel

They make TSA hasp type locks. The ones that I have seen are pretty cheap and flimsy, but are TSA. They are available in most airports.
Bfly

This subject has been previously beat to a pulp on this site -- a bit of searching will reveal the prior threads and will also list several sites that TSA locks can be purchased.

That said -- it appears there is no clear answer to the y/n TSA lock issue.

I have traveled a whole bunch over the last year with firearms locked in cases without any issues.

When I checked in -- advised the carrier that I had a firearm -- TSA did the x-ray and inspection - locked the case and I was gone. Never have had one opened without my being there.

Go to the TSA website and read their rules -- plus take a copy with you to the airport -- that should help on the issue.

Unless there is a significant change -- I will continue to fly with standard locks on my gun cases – but may consider putting a pair of TSA locks inside the case—just in case.

I stood in Dulles airport and wathced the TSA agents use a big pair of bolt cutters on numerous locks at the screening area. They would call the name of the owner over the loadspeaker,,, wait a minute then laugh and cut the locks off. For the TSA locks they had master keys and would open them look inside and then put the TSA locks back on. The regular locks went into a trash bin. I assure you, I could not understand the names they were calling over the speaker,,, I stood and watched them inspect mine,,, with TSA locks, they replaced them and my bags went down the conveyer into the big black hole and somehow arrived in Namibia!

I think the trick may be the way luggage is handled at individual airports. I have always used regular padlocks and in every case I was there when TSA opened my case for inspection. I handed them the key to the case and watched them as they resealed it. It sounds like in some cases the passenger may not be present to provide a key, in which case TSA has every right to cut the locks to do the inspection.

I have never had a case reopened and am not sure where this would take place. After TSA's inspections my guns have always them been sent on down the line for loading on the aircraft.

One thing is for sure, every TSA and airline employee seems to have a different take on the regs.

The current TSA regulations not only do not require TSA locks on firearms cases, they prohibit them:

49 CFR § 1540

quote:

§ 1540.111 Carriage of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries by individuals.
...
(c) In checked baggage. A passenger may not transport or offer for transport in checked baggage or in baggage carried in an inaccessible cargo hold under §1562.23 of this chapter:

(1) Any loaded firearm(s).

(2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless—

(i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally or in writing, before checking the baggage, that the passenger has a firearm in his or her bag and that it is unloaded;

(ii) The firearm is unloaded;

(iii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container; and

(iv) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger retains the key or combination.

(3) Any unauthorized explosive or incendiary.

With regard to cases not locked in such a manner, the TSA is not to authorize the item for transport. Cutting the locks off would render the case unauthorized for transport. And presumably, having a lock on a firearms case other than one where "only the passenger retains the key or combination", such as a TSA lock where persons other than the passenger have a key or combination, would cause the item to be in violation of TSA rules and regulations.

Any TSA employee or other individual who advises to use TSA approved locks on firearms cases is, in essence, advising people to break the law. And certainly cutting locks off of a firearms case by anyone, whether employed by the TSA or otherwise, is in direct violation of a federal regulation. If they cannot contact the passenger to get the key, the case is not supposed to move from the point of departure.

SKB advises buying, as an added precaution (should your hasps be pried open / damaged) "TSA approved luggage strap with lock" at your local store. WalMart has had that sort of thing next to the TSA style locks before.

Of interest may be that SKB now makes some of their cases with (2) TSA locks and (2) unlockable hasps, including golf club cases and at least one double rifle case. Apparently the issue is still not fully resolved (hence searches won't tell the whole story).

BNagel

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
The current TSA regulations not only do not require TSA locks on firearms cases, they prohibit them:

49 CFR § 1540

quote:

§ 1540.111 Carriage of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries by individuals.
...
(c) In checked baggage. A passenger may not transport or offer for transport in checked baggage or in baggage carried in an inaccessible cargo hold under §1562.23 of this chapter:

(1) Any loaded firearm(s).

(2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless—

(i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally or in writing, before checking the baggage, that the passenger has a firearm in his or her bag and that it is unloaded;

(ii) The firearm is unloaded;

(iii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container; and

(iv) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger retains the key or combination.

(3) Any unauthorized explosive or incendiary.

With regard to cases not locked in such a manner, the TSA is not to authorize the item for transport. Cutting the locks off would render the case unauthorized for transport. And presumably, having a lock on a firearms case other than one where "only the passenger retains the key or combination", such as a TSA lock where persons other than the passenger have a key or combination, would cause the item to be in violation of TSA rules and regulations.

Any TSA employee or other individual who advises to use TSA approved locks on firearms cases is, in essence, advising people to break the law. And certainly cutting locks off of a firearms case by anyone, whether employed by the TSA or otherwise, is in direct violation of a federal regulation. If they cannot contact the passenger to get the key, the case is not supposed to move from the point of departure.

Legal or not,,,, four of us sat there and watched it happen. It was right after the liquid incident in London and all liquids were banned from flights and the security went to a higher level. We had already had our bags inspected at checkin with the airline representatives and this was where bags were droped of for X-ray with different TSA agents. We watched ours go through and make sure they at least made it beyond that point. Like what has been pointed out numerous times. There is no continuity with any emplyees in regard to rules and regulations whether with TSA or airline employees.

Reality trumps legality. Try making a legal argument to a twit that could care less. I adhere to the go along, get along philosophy. Bottom line is that these folks can make up whatever damn rules they want when your flight leaves in an hour and a half and you are sitting there arguing with them about the Code of Federal Regulations. What does it matter if you are "right" if your rifles are sitting next to the conveyor belt somewhere at the airport when your flight takes off -- I am not going to feel very "right" at the other end. I will be using TSA locks.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Reality trumps legality. Try making a legal argument to a twit that could care less. I adhere to the go along, get along philosophy. Bottom line is that these folks can make up whatever damn rules they want when your flight leaves in an hour and a half and you are sitting there arguing with them about the Code of Federal Regulations. What does it matter if you are "right" if your rifles are sitting next to the conveyor belt somewhere at the airport when your flight takes off -- I am not going to feel very "right" at the other end. I will be using TSA locks.

I do not disagree with you one bit. I was merely pointing out what rules they are supposed to be working under.

Reality does trump legality - until someone in DC gets written up by the Inspector General and issues an immediate degree to follow the regulations. That would mean if the cases did not have non TSA locks on them they would sit there at the departure destination.

Until the music stops playing in this game of "musical chairs", probably better off having both types of locks with you - just in case.

Again, one of my greatest concerns is not the inconvenience of lock selection, it is the possibility of some unhinged individual with access to the secure areas of the airport with his or her own TSA key getting access to the firearm and using it. No doubt the result would be to ban firearms shipments instead of placing responsibility where it should lie.

My other significant concern is what happens if it is your firearm case with the TSA lock that is compromised? Technically, you the traveler are the one in violation of the federal regulation. And when push comes to shove and you assert that you were told otherwise, there is a distinct possibility that all involved will go to the written regulation and deny any statement to the contrary. That would leave the traveler holding the bag, facing some pretty unpleasant consequences.