I am planning to go to Africa in 2009. I can use my frequent flier miles, but have to go through London and fly Brish Air from there to JoBerg. I seem to remember some negative comments about BA and taking guns. Any comments/advice would be appreciated.

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If you want your guns to arrive BA is the way to go. They have the best record of all carriers serving Africa of delivering your luggage and guns. You fly BA the whole way and just check your guns all the way through. No problem at all. Go through Gracy Travel or Kathi Klimes and you'll have a pleasant trip. I've flown KLM, Air France and BA to Africa and overall BA is much better. I recommend them to my clients and they seem to always have a positive experience.

Mark

I neglected to say that I will be flying American Air from the states to London and I would have to over night there and fly BA the next day.

In that situation there could a complication. If your American flight arrives Gatwick and you have to transfer to Heathrow it will require you to enlist the services of a gun courier $$$$ for the transfer between airports. There also is a US carrier that refuses to carry guns to the UK perhaps it is American. Did a travel agent set up this routing for you or did you do it on-line? BA for the whole trip is the way to do it.

Mark

Mark has pretty much summed it up. If you need to transfer between airports you'll need a firearms courier and if you overnight in London, he could keep it for you and deliver it back to you the next day for your onward flight.

If you fly into and out of LHR and need to overnight with BA, they will store your firearm in a secure lock up and you don't need to worry about it.

In all honesty, your outfitter or agent should be advising you on these matters and if he isn't, you need to ask yourself why not.

I would be using my frequent flyer plan with AA, so I contacted them and that was the route that they had.

I was advised by my agent that I would have to hire a courier to handle my guns. He advised me not to do it, but when the flight costs me nothing I wouldn't mind paying a fee if it isn't to rediculous. However, I don't want to end up with a glitch that would hold up my gun and ammo. I would arrive in London at 10:30 pm and leave the next day at 5:30 pm. I don't know if the courier would be available that late. I may abandon this idea and purchase a ticket through one of the agents who advertise with SCI.

Thanks for your responses.

as i understand it american will not take guns on international flights, but will in country. british have trouble if you have military calibers (i.e. 3006 308 or 223)

If you need a courier, might I recommend Ron Wharton at http://www.bunduki.co.uk

I flew American then connected with Iberia then on to Joburg using my frequent flyer plan with AA. I had some problems with AA because they did not know the rules. They refused to let me take my guns on until I showed them S. African import rules. They had to contact their main office to confirm this. Before you book using your air miles make sure you get the main office to send you some type of confirmation on allowing of your guns to be transported to London then on to S. Africa. Otherwise you are in for real mess. The check in people do not know what they are doing.

Good luck

I've flown that route with AA and BA and British Airways was very, very good about handling my firearms, or 'sporting weapons' as they call them. They provided more information than American. At one point American was supposed to lose their licencse to import firearms into the UK because of poor notification and paperwork. Not sure how that turned out.

Well, I flew AA from Raleigh to Chicago, the BA- Chicago to Heathrow to Jo-Burg and back.

At Raleigh, they paged me back with questions re the firearms, then back through security. Then in Chicago, big hassle. The gals there were really aggressive saying this and that about clearances and their final word at one point was they were confiscating my guns and ammo as contraband. Some other gal walked by and stopped and said no, they were wrong, everything was in order....blood pressure calmed down.

At Heathrow, paged to the counter again ,lots of discussion. At the boarding gate, paged off the plane, asked questions re the firearms 'are they loaded"...etc.

As far as I recall the return was not issues on the firearms,. but the Jo-Burg check in could not give me a seat assignment for my London-Chicago connection, so after a long security screening( see below) and a long wait for an agent, they only had middle seats. I was stuck for the long trip in a middle seat between a gigantic Nigerian and some gal.

All this even though I paid for premium economy (another story).



Note- upon arrival at Heathrow, you need to go through full screening again- I have connected through there a few times on this trip in question and others, and it is a huge hassle- incredibly long lines.

All in all by far my worst trip ever. Since then I stay with Delta, where I have all my miles, and the trip is a breeze, all things considered.

With air travel, as you know, it really helps to stay on the carrier you have your miles on, as they will treat you better and things go smoother, so this may be the case for you with the AA/BA route.

I think eventually we may all use loaner guns from the PHs as things seem to get tougher and tougher...

Thanks for all the responses. Unfortunately I think I will give up on using my frequent flyer miles. I have been talking with AA and I have no confidence in them.

American Airlines policy states that they will not fly firearms into, out of, or through the UK because of "restrictions" here.
This policy was introduced last year & despite much correspondence between myself & AA they failed to produce any evidence to support this.

I have gone back to using Delta for my trips to the US & they are more helpful than any other carrier I've flown with.

I just got back from Zambia and flew American from Minneapolis to Chicago, then transferred to British from Chicago to London then to Lusaka, and back from Lusaka to London then to JFK, spent a day there and home on Northwest.

My take on the whole thing is a lot of it is airport driven.

American refused to check my rifles through on BA even though they could (according to Gracy). I felt a little strange at O'Hare picking up my rifles by having my luggage show up on the carosel, but not the guns. I sat and waited 15 minutes and they were still offloading and some little guy from American walks up to me and asks me if I'm waiting for some guns. Once I say yes, he tells me to wait there and promptly comes with the case. I'm told I need to transfer to the International terminal- I am followed by a guy (I think because of the guns) and I walk up to a cop and ask him about it- he goes to the guy and comes back and tells me it is security because of something in my luggage, and to not worry.

I get to the TSA desk at the international terminal, and they are asking me how I got there, etc. and don't want me to open my case- they will use the "key"- except they can't make it work, and finally ask me to open it, as I am standing there (I got the feeling they would have rather cut it off). They then wipe down every surface of the rifles to "check for explosives". This is very much different than the Minneapolis (Good Luck Hunting Sir!) and in the past at Atlanta- where they just looked at them in disgust.

As to the Airlines- American was OK once I insisted that they get a supervisor. She knew the policies and spent about 20 minutes "educating" her staff.

BA in the US also needed to get a supervisor, just to OK all the paperwork, which thanks to Gracy was already in the system, although I did check with BA on their 800 number 48 hours prior as they requested. BA was rather hands off on the ammo once I told them it was less than 5 KG weight and in a separate locked case. BA puts the ammo and the guns in a separate category of cargo (limited release) and I was able to verify each time that both were on the plane as I boarded each leg. This was quite nice.

Noone seemed to have a clue what to do at JFK- it took them about 30 minutes (with boorish behavior) to figure out they needed a supervisor to deal with the guns. He was a very nice guy however- we talked hunting for about 30 minutes.

Northwest at JFK was a little bit of a joke. I knew that NYC has all these goofy rules about guns, so I shipped the rifles back home via Fed Ex (and they took them ground??!!) I still had to stand around while she got TSA and the police involved because I had 5 rounds of ammo in my bag, and I told them about it.

Long story short
BA is quite good about baggage in general, and very good with the guns as long as you have your ducks in a row before you leave (which takes a couple of weeks)- use a good hunting travel agency and you will be fine.

Right now BA is not accepting "weapons of war" which they define as .308/7.62 NATO, .30-06 (although I have heard from some that this has gone through) .223/5.56, .303 British, and the ComBlock military calibers. The guy I talked to said if it was chambered in a full auto weapon, its a weapon of war.

About the customs/security overseas- why is it that the 3rd world nations are so much better at this than we are?

Sorry this was a little long winded.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Right now BA is not accepting "weapons of war" which they define as .308/7.62 NATO, .30-06 (although I have heard from some that this has gone through) .223/5.56, .303 British, and the ComBlock military calibers. The guy I talked to said if it was chambered in a full auto weapon, its a weapon of war.

Theoretically, all airlines, no matter where in the world, are supposed to classify all firearms as either sporting firearms or weapons of war. The definition of a weapon of war calibre is any calibre that has ever been used by military forces anywhere in the world, and the definition of a sporting firearm calibre is basically any calibre that isn't classified as a weapon of war calibre. Sure, I know it's a load of old tosh, but that's the way it is.

However, there are some ways you might be able to help yourself. The Brits for example can get a letter from the DoT or sometimes the police that states they are allowed, or there is no objection to them taking the 'sporting firearm of whatever caliibre' out of the country for a hunting trip....... note the letter needs to use the term 'sporting firearm' and have the CIVILIAN calibre designation and serial number on it. - You need to do this well ahead of time. Then once you have the letter, you can send a copy of it to the appropriate airline dept and ask them to confirm in writing that they will permit that particular firearm to travel. - Whether they do that, will largely depend on the individual staff member who deals with your particular case, but if they do agree all you have to do is make sure you have the letter with you when you check in. If they don't agree however, that's the end of the matter.

There's always the slight risk that when you check in, you just might get a more senior and more antsy staff member who just might decide to over rule the letter....... but he'd have to be very sure of himself to do so.

All that said, whether we like it or not, international legislation does use the same definitions and BA are just interpreting that rather more strictly than many other airlines do, and although it pisses me off, legally I guess they're right.

If it were me, I'd want to just make life easy for myself and just take a calibre that doesn't have any link to the military whatsoever.

One further comment on BA. When I was on the flight from London to Johannesberg the Chief Steward came up to my seat and delivered a message from the Gate Agent saying he had personnally watched my firearms loaded in the hold. We'd had a conversation at the gate because when I checked, American had not yet delivered my stuff, apparently they do it at the last minute. I thought that was excellent service on BA's part. It certainly made for a more relaxed flight.

When travelling with firearms I always supply the staff at the gate with my luggage tag and ask them to confirm that the items have been loaded. They can do this and I have always found them to be helpful. Together with having my hunting gear in my carry on it makes for a more relaxed trip.

Yes, I agree it is aiport driven. My last trip a few months ago the Delta flight from Jo-Burg was canceled and I managed to get on a Paris-Cincinnati return. At Cincinnati, I waited next to the oversize area, and the gal unloading from the truck hollered when I reached for my gun case 'you can't touch that" etc. They called a Delta guy over who had to carry my rifle case for the TSA reinspection. 2 TSA gals, one was new. They wiped the case down for explosives, treated the rifle as if were a venomous snake, then tossed the bolt back in the case and started to close it. I asked them to wrap the bolt back up in the bubblewrap it was originally stored in, and they said they are not responsible for packing the case. I pointed out they were not "packing" the case, just please return it to the configuration it was in before they inspected. The one gal said no. (very odd). At this point the Delta guy tried to help and I asked please do it, they then put it in the bubblewrap with the bolt still sticking out and put it next to the stock. I asked them to please put it next to the barrel where there was a lot more room, and while doing so pointed and my finger came within 18 inches of the rifle. The one gal shouted "don't touch the rifle or we will not allow you to take it". She stated that I was not allowed to touch the baggage as I might alter its condition. It all seemed form over substance and quite odd.

The Delta guy was pretty nice, and a hunter. We got it packed properly and he still had to carry it to the Delta check in where, guess what, they opened and reinspected...

Sometimes things go smoothly and sometimes they are a pain. Depends on who the individuals are and their attitude towards firearms.

On the plus side I have had airline employees and TSA people really admire a rifle, or express good wishes for a good hunt, ask lots of questions about hunting in Africa, etc.

I have traveled from Norway over London Heatrow more than 12 times and 8 times we had problems with the weapons!it seems that there are som anti hunters at Heatrow making deleys on weapon!!we now only use Frankfurt and South African and lufthansa from there!!