I just got back this am from a Cameroon trip and need to vent.

Has anyone had this happen?

I fly from Douala to paris to seattle on Air France (great airline based on 2 safaris). I arrive a little late in seattle (1 hour before contection to LWS) I go to passport control where their are 2 officers standing around for every 2 working. Then to collect luggage for customs and air france has me rebooked just in case on a later connection. I gather up my gear and take it and eventually my gun (which requires speciall handling obviously) to the customs area for gun inspection. Two officers and 1 supervisor are required. They take my 4457 open my case and cant find the serial number on my 1 gun, a model 70. I try to point to it and they panic, dont touch it!!. FINE they eventually find it, match it to my 4457 then cross question me about where the other guns on this 4457 are?

I maintain the coolness of 007 despite endless hours of travel and calmy point out that the US Customs officer whose signature is on the 4457 did not want to sign and stamp one form for each gun and I always comply with US customs officers requests. They then go into a good cop bad cop act on why there should only be one gun on one form because and I quote "how else can they ensure that I didn't leave the remaining 2 listed guns in a foreign country"!!!!!!!!!!

I missed my reserve connection and got on another.

I still refuse to give up my pride in being American.

You really ran into some pretty dumb Customs folks. Only recently has it become the norm to list only one firearm per 4457, and that as a result of RSA regulations, nearest I can tell. I have many 4457 forms listing up to 6-7 firearms - as many as I could get on a single form - completed at U.S. Customs stations in the 1990s and early 2000s. To the best of my knowledge there is no limit to the number or kinds of items you can put onto a single form 4473 other than the actual size of the form. Cameras, guns, binos, etc can all go onto one Form 4457.

On my most recent safari I took one of the old 4457s with multiple entries to the local U.S. Customs shop to have some transferred as single entries on new 4457s in order to comply with RSA regs. The Customs agent first wanted to see my guns. I pointed out to him that he didn't need to see them since I was only transferring data from an existing (approved) 4457. He gave that a moments thought and then agreed with me and signed and stamped the new forms with single entries.

BTW, I have had to point out the location of serial numbers on many firearms to many agents from many countries over the years. Some have actually handed me the firearm in order to show them the location. No casualties have resulted from this practice.

When you give a half wit a uniform and some small authority over others, especially others whom he envies, such poor treatmen is the result. You are to be commended sir, for your patience. I have been lucky so far, haven't run into such foolishness, just hope to handle problems with dignity when they eventually occur.

LH, thanks for your info on current practices, knowing the ins and outs goes a long way to avoiding problems.

quote:

I maintain the coolness of 007 despite endless hours of travel and calmy point out that the US Customs officer whose signature is on the 4457 did not want to sign and stamp one form for each gun and I always comply with US customs officers requests. They then go into a good cop bad cop act on why there should only be one gun on one form because and I quote "how else can they ensure that I didn't leave the remaining 2 listed guns in a foreign country"!!!!!!!!!!

I missed my reserve connection and got on another.

I always grit my teeth and give them that look that says, "are you really that @$*!ing stupid!"

How is it possible that these people have never ran into this before? It reminds me of the comments I have gotten when the 4457 does not have the quantity listed in the box in the corner. When they tell me that it's "invalid" I just smile and tell them that it is too bad that the customs officer who signed it was not as well trained as they are.


Jason

i dunno but it sounds like typical government employees to me

surely by now you must have seen the new TSA Regs requiring all employees making love during or after hours to do it missionary style? It's because of the intensive training they get. All they know how to do now is Fxxk Up!!

Rich
BK

I agree they can be bad. However,even worse is the typical woman at the airline counter who decides she is going to check and see if you gun is unloaded. It is laughable.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I agree they can be bad. However,even worse is the typical woman at the airline counter who decides she is going to check and see if you gun is unloaded. It is laughable.

Had that last weekend, opened the tuff pak and told her to be my guest. After she looked inside she decided not to and just asked if they where unloaded. would have loved to see her face when she pulled out the .577.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I agree they can be bad. However,even worse is the typical woman at the airline counter who decides she is going to check and see if you gun is unloaded. It is laughable.

Flying out of Canada couple years ago -- the female commandant at the United Airlines baggage check counter demanded that I prove my bow was unloaded --- true story!

SG

The 4457 is to prove that the articles listed on it were not bought overseas and therefore not subject to duty nothing else. Great training these dumbies rec'd!!!! I had a spare scope in my case one time and the customs officer wanted to know where the other gun was. He could not get his head around the concept a back up.

Mark

Law enforcement officers often don't understand or grossly misinterpret the very laws they are charged with enforcing.

That should be astonishing, but unfortunately, to anyone who has spent any time on this earth with his eyes and ears open, it is not.

All we can do is assume we are dealing with idiots and try our best to make things idiot proof. Even that is no guarantee, however, as idiots are ingenious and diligent at developing new and inventive ways to demonstrate their idiocy.

quote:

Originally posted by SG Olds:
...... "how else can they ensure that I didn't leave the remaining 2 listed guns in a foreign country"!!!!!!!!!!
.

Next time ask them "What the F*** do you care? Your job is to inspect and control goods coming into this country."

I have never had a problem with Customs. And maybe I have been lucky. I produce my customs forms and they just waive me through.

Then comes TSA. I had up to three TSA officials inspect my rifles and question everything. Most of them lack the training or expertise and really do not know what they are doing. I just stand quietly by and let them do their thing. When they seem lost I asked them if I could be of help. They do not know what to say then. I have even had my TSA locks cut off after having the rifles inspected and the cases resealed with TSA inspection tape.

Getting in their face won't help. All you do is get someone p****d off and if you do decide to complain it does you no good. Just sounds like sour grapes. And besides that you will be futhered delayed and put through the ringer that much more.

No problem venting but if you do decide to do it to the person that is creating the problem for you. You can do it such a way that it is not his fault but the system and kind it embarasses him or her and it sometimes can make him look foolish.

A complaint letter is good if directed to the right person. I always make sure I have everything documented and all names correctly stated. The higher up you go with complaint the better the response. Nobody likes a complaint letter and no supervisor likes to investigate a complaint. I guantee you that employee does not like to answer to those complaints. Especially if the complaint is well documented. If a employee gets enough complaints, he won't be there long.

Just my two cents.

Brooks,

I believe it is always the individuals responsibility for what he or she does. I do not agree with "I was just following orders".

Thank you for your view from the other side, but I would rather spend my time discussing Wittgenstein with my dogs, I make more progress and they remember better.

My experience having gone thru the Minneapolis airport three time on my way to africa without any problems. The ladies at the ticket counter and the TSA officals all treated me well. I told them my ammo was in my checked bag in a locked case and my Guns were unloaded. They took a quick look at my Rifles and sent me on my way. The funny part was the paperwork from Amsterdamm that KLM said had to be given to the Ticket agent. I handed it to her and the response was she had no idea what it was for and to keep it. I did have to produse it on my return flight from Tanzania. Also taking Firearms in and out of Windhoek was a breeze. Only having one firearm on each custom form is news to me. Sounds like a trip to the US Customs Office is in order before my next trip?

SG Olds

I agree with you. The old saying, "I was following orders" just does not get it. It is just a lame excuse. These customs people spend months in training before they are turned loose and then spend several weeks a year in updating on new regs. I personnaly think a lot of the time it is laziness on their part. Or you are the unforunate person, they are taking it out on because some jerk took it out on them previous to you. And that is no excuse. But, getting in their face as some posters have suggested is a no win situation. None of my reply was directed at you. From your post you did a great job in handling the situation.

Brooks,

There is no reasoning with a lot of people and I should have played more to their vanity and let it slide. I was tired and I found it offensive that My governments employees were so unskilled by comparison.

SG

quote:

BTW, I have had to point out the location of serial numbers on many firearms to many agents from many countries over the years. Some have actually handed me the firearm in order to show them the location. No casualties have resulted from this practice.

When I was 16 I flew alone to hunt in Wyoming. The TSA person who went to check my rifle couldn't figure out how to check it was unloaded - I had to open the bolt for him.

Flying in itself has become a pain, let alone flying with guns. I'm learning, like most things in life, you get more with honey than with vinegar.

I am now confused on how many guns you can have listed on a 4457. I just went to the Customs desk at LAX last week to get 2 rifles and 1 shotgun (my complete African battery) listed on one form. Was that a mistake? Is there an official policy or are we all just at the whim of whatever customs officer from whatever Country we happen to be in at the time?

BBC, the only limit is the amount of white space on the form. You can list as many rifles/guns as will fit.

But as SG Olds's experience indicates, I do think it is best practice - to keep things idiot proof - to list only one rifle per form.

That's what I do.

It is not the U.S. Customs folks who are the issue here. It is the foreign customs inspectors. When RSA changed their firearms import laws a few years ago, they began demanding a government proof of ownership certificate for each firearm. We use our form 4457 to meet this requirement, although that was never the intent of the form, and it is always accepted. RSA, it seems to me, are the ones who started this "one firearm-one form" crap but there is little point in arguing about it, as it's their country we're trying to enter. I have changed mine to single entry for firearms. If you have one form "certified" with 3 firearms, just take that form back to U.S. Customs and ask to have each entered on a single form and explain why. They have never had a problem with that, in my experience.

When did the RSA folks start requiring one gun per form? Recently, I was there last July (2008), and twice in 2007(I won't go back in my Safari histories any further than that, as it wouldn't be relevant) and never had them question my 4457's with multiple guns. Someone please explain this one in detail. Thanks.

Like many government dealings in Africa, it all depends on who you deal with on any given occasion. I've had RSA police look at the headstamps of my ammo at times, while at other times they don't even care to see the boxes of ammo, let alone open them.

From personal experience, when I entered in 2004 and 2005 they were saying they wanted a separate "gun permit/registration" for each weapon imported. As such I have had all my clients get a 4457 for each firearm and they have had no problems. I haven't entered via RSA since late 2005.

Go figure.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys01:
My experience having gone thru the Minneapolis airport three time on my way to africa without any problems. The ladies at the ticket counter and the TSA officals all treated me well. I told them my ammo was in my checked bag in a locked case and my Guns were unloaded. They took a quick look at my Rifles and sent me on my way. The funny part was the paperwork from Amsterdamm that KLM said had to be given to the Ticket agent. I handed it to her and the response was she had no idea what it was for and to keep it. I did have to produse it on my return flight from Tanzania. Also taking Firearms in and out of Windhoek was a breeze. Only having one firearm on each custom form is news to me. Sounds like a trip to the US Customs Office is in order before my next trip?

I crossed borders professionally for many years. Minneapolis has the nicest bunch of Customs people I've ever encountered. Went through there three times returning from Canada on hunts. Piece of cake.

Miami is by far the worst, both Immigration and Customs. There are a lot of neo-sadists in the Customs service, some of whom have told me they enjoy strip searching people and humiliating them.

I think some of these guys are chosen because they flunked their MMPI's.

It just depends where you clear in as to the treatment you receive, although I cleared in through Miami from a trip to El Salvador in December and the guys couldn't have been nicer. I wasn't carrying firearms, though.