We often see threads underlining bad outfitters or booking agents and what made those experiences negative.

I generally supportive of such threads. This sites in my observation is best for matching clients with those selling hunts or providing professional hunting services. It is free to memebers and outfitters. As such, threads that are indicutive of bad operations for whatever reason and how those issues were handled or not handled are appericative from the consumer viewpoint.

I believe in my ablity to distinguish between client's with an ax to grind vs. outfiters and booking agents that did not deliever.

In October I am going on my thrid internatial hunt in six years. My first two hunts from the outfitter stand point and my own planning were what my wife and I had dreamed. However, on the first hunt we used a well know and large boooking agent.

My Wife more than I, because I did not expect quality service, were very displeased with how the booking agent handled our affaris. I will not name any names P.M. for details. However, we were able to fill in ourseleves what the Booking Agent was suppose to be doing with the help of an Outfitter we were not hunting with, adn our own Outfitter was amazaing. We enjoyed ourselves so well we re-booked with the outfitter directly and did all the Booking Agent stuff ourselves (again). We found out that we paid a considerable more for the Booking Agent versus booking directly the second go around. I will not give details oiutside of a public forum, but one sanfu that I was assured was not an issue caused me almost as much as a cape buffalo torphy fee.

That made us swear off booking agents.

I have again, decided to use a booking agent. Arjun Reedy. Why he was advertising a good deal on here for Bulgeria. He came with the hunt. I can say the experience as been night and day different compared to the first Booking Agent we used.


Rifle issues timely addressed (and actually taken care of) without prompts from me. Travel Ooordination, lodgeing, all well handled. If there are any hiden fees. He has hidden them so well he dersrves them because I cannot find them.

Arjun hasd provided great communication, expectations, and travel coordiantion. My wife is even happy with him. She comes from a diffeent class and has a higher demand of those engaged in services than I do.


The justopostion of these two experiences got tme thinking. We see threads about bad outfits/bookiong agents. We will never see threads about bad clients. The old phrase, I believe, is one drinks the champagne. THe one expection is years after the fact Shootway got his come upins when he attacked CM Safaris.


I know I can be meticulessly involved in the planning process. Good planning prevents alot of issues. I also enjoy it.


What do our Outfittters and Booking Agents say makes for a bad client? Obviously no name are asked for or needed.


To my mind are these: Overdrinking; Dangerous Fireamrs handling and refusal to take correction; not paying (gets sticky when both entities feel they are in the right); not pitching in to carry or laod game; (I would gladly gut my own animals, no one has ever let me, I am not a skinner but can hold a leg.); too much tape measure torphy score must be obtained all else be damned.


I can think of other potential bad client behaviors. I am sure they have happended but one would have to be boarding on getting arrested.

What do our Outfitters and Booking Agent's think.

Arjun is great used him 2 time both hunts were amazing in spite of many challenges out side his control . Including the terrorist attack on the Splendid hotel on the day we arrived. Arjun was right on top of things and was able make a great safari in spite of the ever changing security conditions

Last fall, I had the misfortune of meeting a couple clients who would be anyone’s nightmare. 2 guys in their late 30s to early 40s. We met them at the safari operators base, as we were both heading out to our respective hunting areas the next day. They were nice enough guys, but...

Their excessive alcohol consumption was a big issue for everyone. Their focus on how many bottles of whiskey, vodka, gin and other spirits were going to be in camp shocked me. They were going on a buffalo hunt but all they cared about was making sure enough hard liquor would be accompanying them into camp. When I got back from my hunt, the stories about these two were amazing. They had each drank in excess of a full fifth of hard liquor, per person, each day. The safari operator never wanted to see them again, and I sure as hell didn’t either.

How’s that for an example of a bad client?

I have witnessed bad client behavior. A client came into camp with another PH. At first, he was fine. When he wasn’t getting his croc, he became a problem. He became sullen, a real jerk. He became worse and worse. On the day he was leaving, he couldn’t find his hat. He created a major scene in the camp accusing the staff of stealing his hat. This was basically a baseball type cap. He refused to leave tips. It was embarrassing.

The next day we received word that he found his cap. He was a total ass.

Does seem most issues start with alcohol. Folks question why alcohol is excluded from a hunt quote. I stop all alcohol 60days before the hunt and won’t have another until the game is in the salt. At that, I only have a drink with dinner and one after dinner.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I have witnessed bad client behavior. On the day he was leaving, he couldn’t find his hat. He created a major scene in the camp accusing the staff of stealing his hat.

We had one that accused us of taking his underwear...…… and during his stay he could not stop reminding us how much money had.

One time I asked for a diet Coke.

I've had the unfortunate experience to book a person who could not shoot the broadside of a barn in the past when I was booking. That was an awful situation to deal with not only for me but the poor PH.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
One time I asked for a diet Coke.

Booking agents make note...;-)

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Does seem most issues start with alcohol. Folks question why alcohol is excluded from a hunt quote. I stop all alcohol 60days before the hunt and won’t have another until the game is in the salt. At that, I only have a drink with dinner and one after dinner.

I never understand the need to get hammered on safari. Why fly half way around the world to do that? I can do that at home if I want.

I have shared camp a couple of times. And I will do so again this year.

One hunter, could not put his rifle together, however it was a spanking brand new rifle with scope(s). Of course the rifle was sighted in by the gunsmith and store it was purchased at. I'm not sure if the hunter had ever shot it before arriving in camp. This was a reoccurring happening from what i listened to around the camp fire.

Another hunter, could not get out of bed before noon.

However, i listened to stories around the camp fire about some hunters, visiting PH"S started to tell some stories and it just turned into can you top this one, it was a great time. Some of the stories i found very hard to believe. However, I am sure that they were all true, there is no need to fabricate the truth.

To me, especially on a dangerous game hunt, the hunter ethically signs a contract to come to camp prepared to cleanly take his/her query. That means having a rifle that is sighted in with quality ammunition that is suitable for the target animal that he can shoot well. On a dangerous hunt, if the first shot is not adequate and stuff hits the fan, then everyone, including the trackers, game scout, and PH are all in danger due to a poor shot by the client. To me, first and foremost, a bad client is one who shows up unprepared.

Perhaps it would be helpful to define what a "booking agent" does as distinct from a "travel agent". A booking agent is a matchmaker, not a travel agent. He actually represents the outfitter, not the client. Sometimes he handles the money, sometimes not. Usually he does NOT handle the travel arrangements, visas, gun permits etc etc. Unless the booking agent promises/offers otherwise, his job ends when the hunt is booked and the deposits are paid. That's why he is called a "BOOKING" agent. Booking agents, unless they are also travel agents, earn nothing from the airline or the hotel(s). At that point, the arrangement is between the outfitter and the client, and it's up to the client to show up at the appointed place on the appointed day with his gear, and to get himself back home again.

This also brings up another misunderstanding. Outfitters are not taxidermists. The outfitter's job ends when the trophies are delivered to the taxidermist of the client's choice with the required paperwork. And the taxidermist is not a freight forwarder. The taxidermist's job ends when the trophies are crated. Sometimes, the taxidermist will handle the export paperwork, sometimes the freight forwarder will do that.

Bottom line, you normally pay three bills: the outfitter, the taxidermist, and the freight forwarder. And normally, you make your own travel arrangements or engage a travel agent to do that.

Of course almost all booking agents will try to sort out problems before, during or after the hunt, out of goodwill. But this is not, strictly speaking, their role.

There is/used to be something called a hunting consultant. Said person pretended to be working for the client, but in reality he was working for the outfitter and was paid by same. This type of service is now largely obsolete, due to the internet.

Bottom line, unless the "agent" quotes you a fee for his services and you pay him directly, he is not working for you. He is working for the hunting outfitter. His job is to find clients, book them, and make sure a deposit is paid.

Regarding pricing, the booking agent takes a commission, a percentage negotiated with the outfitter/ph, off the outfitter's price list. It's usually between $500 and $1000. In any case, the price of the hunt should be the same whether you book directly or not. Most booking agents will not accept an arrangement where the outfitter publicizes one price list and the agent is supposed to sell the same hunt for some higher price.

Hope that helps.

Back to the client: I say there is no such thing as a bad client, as long as he pays his bill and does not assault anyone or do anything dangerous, illegal or unethical. If he can't or won't handle a firearm properly, then the PH must not allow him to load (or if necessary even handle) a firearm until he is on the sticks. If he wants to drink, that's his prerogative. If he wants to sleep in, fine. If he can't shoot, then the PH should be astute enough to figure this out and not offer a difficult shot. If no easy shot offers itself, there is no shooting. Savvy PHs know that sometimes the best solution is to do the shooting themselves.

The client is entitled to his own personality. The PH should never put different clients in the same camp. This avoids any unpleasantness with other clients. If a client wants to be a boor, then let him do that on his own, or with the member of his own party.

The client is not obligated to pay a tip. That's why it's called a tip. The PH and staff need to manage the situation in such a way that the client pays a tip. If they don't or can't, then they don't deserve a tip.

Russ,

I know you've been in the safari business for quite awhile but I don't think your generalization about booking agents applies to everyone. I for one do not consider that my responsibility ends once I've collected my commission nor do I think of myself as an employee of the safari operator. I don't take all my commission until the hunt is paid for regardless of how far out the hunt is booked. I also tell clients that I will follow their safari through until their trophies arrive home interceding on their behalf as necessary and I do it. I had an operator tell me I worked for him in a heated discussion once. I told him that I worked for the client as much as I worked for him as my commission came initially from the client so the client is actually paying me to look after his interest.

Mark

Mr. Gould respectfully and from the above there are. I have never been in a camp with a bad actor. The last trip I wn on had one other gentleman and his wife. They were great folks we only saw them at dinner.

Each is allowed his own call, but when some one tells me we will do x,y,and z. I call about x,y,and z. You tell me x, y, and z are take care of by you. You indicate to me to quit asking about it. X,Y,Z are not performed. I call them bad actors. Then I have to pay extra to get x,y,z done because we are stranded at an airport. You are bad at what you do.

Finally, to send a bill for those services when no paper ever showing the charge prior is close to theft.

They did send me a Christmas card.

I know an Outfitter is not a taxidermist. For an example of good business, my Austrian Outfitter, Kelemens, recommended a taxidermist after showing me the person’s work. Kelemens made sure to help coordinate import on two occasions with myself, taxidermist, and DandL. He got rebooked. The Booking Agent has never and never will get my business. I tell everyone who ask the details also to not use them.

If Kelemens is getting any kick back from that taxidermy, I do not see or feel it. I also do not care. The task is accomplished most efficiently.

Never been asked to pay a tip. I was glad to pay the tips I have. I could have got on the plane wo paying a tip. My treatment would have been no different (maybe after the plane left). I did not want too.

I, in general, would not care to share a camp with someone. So long as I did not think I was paying for the privilege of being the only one there. I like to meet folks.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Russ,

I know you've been in the safari business for quite awhile but I don't think your generalization about booking agents applies to everyone. I for one do not consider that my responsibility ends once I've collected my commission nor do I think of myself as an employee of the safari operator. I don't take all my commission until the hunt is paid for regardless of how far out the hunt is booked. I also tell clients that I will follow their safari through until their trophies arrive home interceding on their behalf as necessary and I do it. I had an operator tell me I worked for him in a heated discussion once. I told him that I worked for the client as much as I worked for him as my commission came initially from the client so the client is actually paying me to look after his interest.

Mark

Russ, I have to disagree with you and side with Mark here. I used Mark’s services last year to book a Zambian hunt and he was probably more engaged AFTER the hunt was booked and deposit paid, than before. He was very detail oriented, not only in making sure that everyone took care of their tasks, but that they were done on time. I’ve used other agents in the past who were closer to what you describe, but I can assure you not all agents ‘just’ do what you describe.

Also, I have to disagree that there are no bad clients. The two clowns I referenced as total alcoholics were complete, utter jackasses. And, they were booked by an agent who is familiar to many who frequent AR, as well as known by some AR members. No matter how you slice it, the main guy of that pair was a horrible client as well as an drunken jackass in the safari operators main base. There is no justifying or excusing that over the top behavior.

quote:

Originally posted by Terry Blauwkamp:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I have witnessed bad client behavior. On the day he was leaving, he couldn’t find his hat. He created a major scene in the camp accusing the staff of stealing his hat.

We had one that accused us of taking his underwear...…… and during his stay he could not stop reminding us how much money had.

We were in the Seychelles.

And met a Russian who was driving everyone nuts by telling us how much money he had.

The resort we were in was rather expensive.

One day I was talking to an old Italian gentleman by the bar on the beach, and he comes our friend Ivan - I cannot remember his name!

The Italian gentleman said “get ready for it”

Of course, Ivan started as soon as he ordered his drink!

I said to him “has it occurred to you that anyone in this resort could have more money than you? And not brag about it?”

Ivan would not set with either me or the Italian gentleman after that!

I always joke with the staff, and was informed that Ivan thinks Arabs are not very nice people!

Made my day

Generalizations never apply to everyone. As I said, the booking agent is supposed to do whatever he promises he will do. If he promises soup to nuts, then he is a concierge, not a booking agent. Semantics perhaps. But my point is still this: unless the booking agent says he will do more than just book the hunt, don't get mad if that's all he does.

Here's the acid test for those who proclaim otherwise: if the client is unhappy with the hunt, the airline, the hotel(s), the taxidermist, or the freight forwarder, will you refund your commission?

I think the discussion might be more useful if the OP would tell the whole story. I thought, reading between the lines, that part of the problem might be a misunderstanding about what the booking agent's role was. It seems his failure had to do with something that was supposed to happen in an airport. That still sounds to me like something a travel agent should do.

I once shared a camp with a published Outdoor writer. He had his girlfriend with him. There was one other couple at the camp.

Apparently, this individual thought he had to be the life of the party and told one hilarious story (at least to him) after another. No one else could get a word in edgewise.

To top it all off, every other word was F***ing this or F***ing that.

If my wife had been present I would have confronted him real quick.

Needless to say, I didn't spend much time around the campfire once dinner was over.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
Generalizations never apply to everyone. As I said, the booking agent is supposed to do whatever he promises he will do. If he promises soup to nuts, then he is a concierge, not a booking agent. Semantics perhaps. But my point is still this: unless the booking agent says he will do more than just book the hunt, don't get mad if that's all he does.

Here's the acid test for those who proclaim otherwise: if the client is unhappy with the hunt, the airline, the hotel(s), the taxidermist, or the freight forwarder, will you refund your commission?

I think the discussion might be more useful if the OP would tell the whole story. I thought, reading between the lines, that part of the problem might be a misunderstanding about what the booking agent's role was. It seems his failure had to do with something that was supposed to happen in an airport. That still sounds to me like something a travel agent should do.

Sir, I will pm you the details.

Worst client i had nearly killed me when he shot his "unloaded" rifle off outside my house off the back of his range rover. Luckily my dog saved me when she started to eat something horrid - i moved to pick her up and in those 2 seconds i wasn't stood where i had been a .308 bullet ripped through part of the car and what would have been my groin area. Would have bled out and died pretty fast i think.

Buffhunter63: Wouldn’t happen to be Jim Carmichael would it? In my opinion, his mouth is like that and so is his pomposity. I understand if you don’t want to say.

I would say that, for the high activity, high stress client that it is easy to 'let down the hair' and have one too many. Some self control is in order.

I like a drink or two in the evening after the guns are racked and dinner is cooking. On the other hand, it is very annoying to put up with a loud mouth, worse yet a loud mouth drunk.

If I am paying many thousands of dollars for a safari, I would prefer to be in camp by myself, or with one of a handful of people that I know, trust, and get along with. But not some jackass who spoils my hunt by being obnoxious.

I think at least SOME clients KNOW how bad they are, and do make the right decision.

They go and hunt with Mark Sullivan!

He charges them money.

Shoots all their buffalo.

And bad mouth them!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed

And met a Russian who was driving everyone nuts by telling us how much money he had.

Every time I left a safari camp the trackers had a higher net worth than I had.