My brother just called me from South Africa with a tale of woe. It seems when he checked in in Tulsa with United they failed to alert SAA his bag contained firearms. He checked the baggage through to Harare. When he was about the board his flight to Harare he was summoned back to the ticket counter and taken into custody by SAPS for arms smuggling. After a bit of give and take it was finally decided he was not a criminal, just stupid, and allowed to depart the airport for the Afton Guesthouse for the night as he had missed his flight to Harare.

He is the kicker! SAPS did not give him a permit for his firearms and allowed him to leave the airport with the guns. Now what to do? Leave them in RSA and go on to Harare or try to check them back in when he heads north and hope they remember letting him leave with the guns.

More to come later. But remember to make certain your airline notifies SAA that you are checking guns to your final destination. It is getting to be such a hassle I doubt if I will bring guns on any future hunts to Africa.

Perry

Geesh, what a fiasco! On the surface it sounds 100% like United's fault but it also doesn't sound like something that will be solved quickly. What a shame. Somewhat similar occurence happened to one of our members flying KLM a couple of years back, but in that case, the travel agent failed to notify the airline in advance. I'd be doing some serious talking to United, hopefully he used a travel agent so they can fight the battles for him while he enjoys his hunt. All I can suggest is for him to go on from here and enjoy his hunt. It'll work out or it won't, and there is no reason to screw up the rest of his time worrying about it.

He needs to call PHASA on 012 667 2048 and ask for their advice and support..... as he's not hunting with a PHASA member or even in SA he might have to pay a firearms courier fee of some kind but if anyone can sort it out, they can.

If he needs someone to talk to tonight he can call me on 0832 777114

If it was checked all the way to HRE and he never "entered" RSA with it, how did SAPS even become involved???????

I've had several mishaps with luggage out of San Antonio, not all involving firearms. I blame United. I used to think that San Antonio was the armpit of the United service map, ergo, San Antonio got all the loser employees, but your post makes me think that United's IQ requirement might be a bit lower than other airlines. I didn't have any major problems on my most recent trip to and from Zim, but on the last leg of the flight, Dulles to San Antonio, I thought I might have heard my name paged, but didn't hear it clearly; then, when I handed the gate agent my boarding pass, he fumbled then asked me about (whispered) "weapons", am I... or checked. I explained to him that I would have to be a Federal Marshall to carry on board. He laughed and said "you're right". As I was walking down the boarding ramp I prayed "God protect us."

I hope your brother has a great hunt, no matter who's bang stick he's holding. (The rifle is really a minor detail.)

quote:

Originally posted by LRH270:
If it was checked all the way to HRE and he never "entered" RSA with it, how did SAPS even become involved???????

Good question!!!???

I don't think United informs anyone that a bag contains firearms ... there is no flag to this effect on the US side, in fact the US theory is to AVOID advertising that a gun is in a bag (hence the ticket inside the bag). I have never seen a gun case checked in the USA arrive on the other end with a "firearms" tag on it. And I doubt there is a flag in the system either.

The problem is SAA wants the bag identified as a gun on the OUTSIDE because they use special agents to load and unload guns, not the normal baggage handlers . Most of the time, it's obvious that the case contains a gun, so there is no issue. But if you use a Boyt bag for example, the bag, if not otherwise identified as containing a firearm, will be handled as normal baggage, ie you can claim it and walk thru customs with it.

What happened here is they found a gun in "general baggage", probably when xraying bags in transit, and had a fit. It's nobody's fault, it's a loophole in the system.

Of course, it's also a golden opportunity to ask for "something for me".

quote:

Of course, it's also a golden opportunity to ask for "something for me".

We heard that phrase at every stop last July!

We heard it so often, it is now part of our vocabulary!

It is good to hear however that they are cutting the internal couriers [Securicor?] out of the food chain at JNB however. I wonder if they have done the same at the regional airports . [At Port Elizabeth they took each hunter into a small room to "inspect" their rifle, then blocked the closed door while holding out their hands for "something for me"!.]

Les

Russ got the facts almost spot on. My brother was traveling with firearm in a luggage type case. The guns were discovered during X-ray of the transfering luggage and the baboons at OR Tembo jumped to the top of the trees and started throwing shit at everything in sight.

He emailed to say he arrived safe and sound in Harare with all his gear. I am interested to know how he got out of RSA with guns he had no permit for. Perhaps his wallet is lighter and monkeys in SAPS are now well watered.

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by PWN375:

He emailed to say he arrived safe and sound in Harare with all his gear. I am interested to know how he got out of RSA with guns he had no permit for. Perhaps his wallet is lighter and monkeys in SAPS are now well watered.

Perry

I'm very proud of your brother's ability to calmly handle what could have been a tough situation. He'll be tested in his new "job" and it's great that he has his head squarely upon his shoulders!

quote:

Originally posted by PWN375:
and the baboons at OR Tembo jumped to the top of the trees and started throwing shit at everything in sight.

Perry

Thanks. That made me laugh out loud Perry!

Mike

this kind of BS is why I have contacted Aubrey Kent he will be waiting for me at joberg and everything will be in order

The gooks at OR Tembo would not let my brother transport the firearms in a luggage type case. They insisted they will ship them on a later flight. He flew to Harare and as of today he still does not have his firearms. The SAP monkeys still accused him of arms smuggling when he went back to the airport to continue his trip. They did not arrest him after he paid a $30.00 "tax" and they told him there is an arms embargo against Zimbabwe and that he could not take guns into that country.

If you travel with a lugguge firearms case such as in a Boyt duffle bag...DO NOT FAIL TO ALERT SSA THAT YOUR LUGGUGE CONTAINS A FIREARM or you will be explaining to baboons why you are not smuggling guns into RSA since they were checked through to another country.

Perry

I am the brother PWN is talking about here. here is a little more on this situation.
I landed in Johannesburg, South Africa on April 6, 2010. I was headed for Zimbabwe (ZIM) to work as a camp manager for a safari company in the communal lands North of Gokwe. But the South African Police Service (SAPS) had a different idea. They wanted to arrest me for “smuggling firearms” into South Africa. I had no intention of staying in South Africa. I was merely in transit to Harare, Zimbabwe. But, nevertheless, I was pulled from the plane headed to Zim and temporarily detained while the Police tried to figure a way to either put me in prison or (what they really were after) drain some of the money from my pockets. I did have three guns with me. Completely legal firearms I might add, which had been inspected in the US (and shouldn’t have been seen again until I made it to Harare). But SAPS thought they had the upper hand and so we had a little drama. I was forced to clear customs and enter South Africa. Since I hadn’t arranged for firearms licenses (remember I had no intention of entering SA) I was now technically guilty of the smuggling charge. I just love how these crooked assholes work!
After a four hour fight, which was preceded by nearly 24 hours of travel time – yeah I was exhausted – I was released and allowed to take the guns to a guesthouse. Then I realized, the SAPS guys never gave me an import permit for the guns, but they gave me the guns to take with me. Now I was really in trouble as I was in possession of firearms in a foreign country with no licenses. At this point I was sure 2010 was going to be the worst year of my life and the majority of it was going to be spent in an African prison. I was less that happy about my choice to head to Africa at this point.
But Africa being Africa, the next morning I was able to talk (read that as pay) my way out of being arrested and charged and allowed to continue my travel to ZIm. It cost me a few dollars with the SAPS, but the loss of the cash was so much better than the prospect of spending even a minute in a South African jail. One of the conditions of my release was that I send the firearms separately to Harare. I knew then I would never see those guns again. It is July now and I have yet to see them. So, thus far I have been right.
My personal opinion is that the SAPS guys in Johannesburg blatantly stole the guns.
So there it is...
Be careful traveling to SA with guns...
Cheers,
Brian

Not to diminish the serious issue raised by Perry, but I cannot in good conscience let his descriptions of the workers at OR Tembo as "baboons", "gooks", and "monkeys" go without comment.

Saeed has generously created a forum for us to exchange thoughts, opinions, and information on a range of hunter-related subjects. In so doing, we have a responsibility to maintain a modicum of civility and decency in our posts, a responsibility not only to Saeed and ourselves, but to those that may look to these pages for insights into our sport and hunters in general. Far from being humorous, characterizations like Perry's fail in that respect, and bring disrepute to us all.

Someone else said it better than I could, “Racism is man's gravest threat to man - the maximum of hatred for a minimum of reason.”

Well Kim speaking solely from the point of view of the perosn who lived this experience, I would have to say that my brother's description of the worker's at OR Tembo is nothing less than 1,000% accurate - spot on.

Also remember this is the internet and a public "chat" forum. If you don't like the things you read, pick another thread. If you don't appreciate a post or a particular topic being discussed, close the window and move on.

If you are looking for civility and decency in the posts you read here...you are on the wrong forum...at least that has been my experience in the last four years...

Cheers,

Brian

Brian

I hope your new job is going well, and you are enjoying yourself.

I sure hope you get your guns back.

I would call somebody at PHASA, or contact Gracy Travel and see if there guy Bruce can get your guns sent to you. Bruce is in good with the SAS people at J'oberg.

Also, I cannot help but think that "them" Somali Cab Drivers in Dallas had something to do with this...

Sorry could not resist.

Keep us posted.

Brian,

I passed a link to this to PHASA last night and hopefully they'll look into it and see if they can do anything about tracing your rifles.

In theory at least, they might be able to find out if they ever got into the JNB baggage system and if they did what flight they were on.

Here's hoping you get them back!

Brian

PM & email sent.

Interesting tale of woe.

I went Cape Buffalo hunting in Zim in December of 2008. I had United through check my bag and aluminum guncase to Harare when I checked in in Boise. Absolutely zip hassles. I think the key is a big rifle case out of metal. Never give people who expect to augment their income with on site "rescues" of important items.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Allout:
Well Kim speaking solely from the point of view of the perosn who lived this experience, I would have to say that my brother's description of the worker's at OR Tembo is nothing less than 1,000% accurate - spot on.

Also remember this is the internet and a public "chat" forum. If you don't like the things you read, pick another thread. If you don't appreciate a post or a particular topic being discussed, close the window and move on.

If you are looking for civility and decency in the posts you read here...you are on the wrong forum...at least that has been my experience in the last four years...

Cheers,

Brian

Brian:

You undoubtedly experienced inexcusable acts of incompetence or worse at the hands of some employees at Tembo Airport, but that hardly serves as justification for your brother's racist remarks.

Despite your suggestion, it's not me that is going to "close the window and move on". On the contrary, if you and your brother don't want to be held accountable for hateful or ignorant remarks of your own creation, don't post them. Otherwise expect your posts to be commented on by those that find such behavior repugnant.

As an aside, I wonder if you and your brother would use "baboons", "monkeys", and "gooks" to describe the black workers at Tembo were you sitting across a table from black members of AR? Or would their proximity compel you into the "civility and decency" you otherwise deride?

You're wrong on another point, Brian. The overwhelming majority of posts on AR do demonstrate civility and decency - if also spirited and sometimes heated discussion - and it has been rare to encounter outright racism by its members - your brother's posts notwithstanding.

Steve,
I will respond to your email just now. Thanks Boet.

Tony,
Obviously the Somali cab drivers had something to do with this deal. You know they are out to get me...


Kim,
Obvliously we do not see eye to eye on this matter and that is fine. You are entitled to your opinion - just as I am and more importantly to this thread and your comments, just as my brother is. If you don't like them, don't read them.

I have yet to try to run away from anything I have posted here on AR or any other place on the internet. FYI - if you don't like the things I post or the things posted by my brother - there is this little ignore button - you can push that and you will never see another post from either of us.

As for your aside - I have worked with colored members of society in various types of positions for well over 15 years. I have been side by side performing laborous work with them (spilling the same blood, sweat, etc), had them as clients in a multitude of professional endeavors and generally was raised right with them. I have come by my attitude honestly...For your general knowledge, my attitude does not change regardless of who is in the room. I have a theory - if you don't like my attitude - you are free to leave the room.

I love how you point out the supposed wrongs of others on this forum. "Let he who is without sin..." That ring any bells? Just wondering. Good luck in your crusade to end racism. I wish you all the best.

In closing Kim, you are free to hold whatever opinion of me you wish. I have no issue with that or with you. But before you get on your high horse and try to judge anyone - take a walk in their shoes.

Cheers,

Brian

Brian,

there was a story a couple of years ago where a whole flights rifles went missing.... they never found the damb things till last year - a couple of years down the line. someone put them all in a cupboard in a storeroom and locked them up and buggered off.

mail me at aubrey@airchartersafrica.com if you need a hand, i know someone who has a couple of connections there and will trace it up.

btw do you have you US Customs form still?

and yes SAPS can make your life very difficult if they want to

I am with KPete regarding civility. We are most certainly not going to elevate the folks referred to as baboons by so denigrating them. Their behavior can be loathsome, but they will not improve as a result of being insulted. Let us behave as gentlemen and lead by example.

I believe we also owe Saeed this level of respect.
Brice

quote:

Originally posted by LHowell:

quote:

Of course, it's also a golden opportunity to ask for "something for me".

[At Port Elizabeth they took each hunter into a small room to "inspect" their rifle, then blocked the closed door while holding out their hands for "something for me"!.]

Les

Hi Les
thats not on even for a African Veteran traveller like yourself.Sorry to hear about that.We cleaned out the Port Elizabeth gun counter a year or two ago from that kind of thing. The outfitter needs to know and the name of the cretin is important. We normally meet and greet at P.E gun counter and give them hell if they try that crap.

quote:

Originally posted by Brice:
I am with KPete regarding civility. We are most certainly not going to elevate the folks referred to as baboons by so denigrating them. Their behavior can be loathsome, but they will not improve as a result of being insulted. Let us behave as gentlemen and lead by example.

I believe we also owe Saeed this level of respect.

Brice

I feel the same way.

What you need to do, Brian, is stop with the name-calling, and sue them.

That strategy has produced amazing results in at least one other case.

Dartmouth College Professor Sues United for $25 and Court Costs for Lost Luggage

quote:

Originally posted by Allout:
I knew then I would never see those guns again. It is July now and I have yet to see them. So, thus far I have been right.

Be careful traveling to SA with guns...
Cheers,
Brian

Brian
I am sorry to hear of your situation.

I would like to know about the guns that were stolen(type, value, etc.)

I know that it might sound like I am being nosy, but I want to try to get some idea of the SAPS's officer's motivation for stealing them.

JB -

You have a PM.

Cheers,

Brian

Funny how I nor my brother ever identified the race of the SAP officers. Yet KPete goes all PC cop and assumes I was racist. How the hell can one be racist without identify the offending parties as niggers, wops, greasers, japs, chinks, dog munching dinks, wagon burners, dot-heads, slopes, rag-heads, kikes, micks, zips, BOTS, munts, jews, canucks, frogs, limeys, krauts, bols, kiwis, aussies, rooinecks, crackers, DC f*ckwits or liberals.

Perry

Regrettably, we have no control over what happens to us while at the Joberg airport, no matter the airline no matter what we do. And from what I read and hear, it's only getting worse. I have only hunted RSA once and that was almost a decade ago. What the SAPS do to the traveling sportsman is reason enough not to go back. Period. I have found other places to hunt. RSA needs a safari boycott as far as I am concerned.

My 20 years of flying with guns, including 7 trips to Africa have been fairly uneventful. I have learned to clearly and repeatedly declare my firearms to the first, and any other agent I come in contact with. I tell them I need their form to fill out, and that it must be placed inside the case. I repeat the mantra, if necessary.

I have also learned that on most airlines, your baggage claim ticket has in its bar code the fact that the bag contains a firearm and that this data is entered into the baggage tracking system. Lufthansa does this, and, as a matter of fact, whenever I have been in transit with them they have verified with me that my luggage includes firearms. It's in their system.

I make an effort to make the airlines do their job all along the way.

quote:

your baggage claim ticket has in its bar code the fact that the bag contains a firearm

Interesting, how does this happen? Do other airline do this? I guess it depends when they print out the luggage tags ie. before they ask (or you declare) if you have firearms, or after.
Peter.

Yes they do..... or at least are meant to.

International aviation law requires that the firearms bag tag number(s) be listed as firearms in the booking and going from memory, I think, also the dangerous goods manifest and the A/C trim/manifest....... that's from memory though.