I just saw this tonight.

Looks like carrying a box of extra batteries for the Surefire and other devices like pocket cameras may be impossible now. Perhaps I just misread it.

Sure looks like that's the new way it works. Appears that one can take a maximum of two batteries in carry-in if wrapped in plastic. Wonder if battery cases will be allowed eventually.

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:
Sure looks like that's the new way it works. Appears that one can take a maximum of two batteries in carry-in if wrapped in plastic. Wonder if battery cases will be allowed eventually.

I hope so. Last trip I had a box of batteries for the Surefire and extras for my pocket camera in my checked bag, and an extra rechargeable plus a set of non-rechargeables for my larger camera in my carry-on.

Charles,

maybe I read something and don't understand-- in the third para from thebttom of the article you linked I think it says if you leave them in the factory packaging you can carry all you want. From what i read you just can't have them loose-- just as ammo needs to packed correctly.

I did call my friendly TSA guru this morning and he told me the same thing. When i asked him about the reference ot the single spare in the factory packaging he said that if in a factory case then any number would be ok. Then again, all TSA dudes and duettes have individual authority to say yea or nay.

I read the rule to say that if they were in a plastic bag or factory packaging the limit was two, but hopefully I am wrong.

I hope your interpretation is correct.

In any event it will be a while before I can go back so this will get clarified by then.

I believe the restriction is only for Lithium batteries, and not for normal Alkaline ones. We took a lot of extra batteries for our cameras, video recorders, and music devices without a problem. The limit of two would apply to Lithium ones only.

I work with sodium, potassium, and lithium metal quite a bit and fires with these can be very impressive. Any pyrophoric metal is a hazard from a fire standpoint.

Here is a reference to the FAA testing and report for your info.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0UBT/is_29_18/ai_n6280925

The only alkaline I carry are for my back-up camera. With the Surefire and the Nikon D70 I have a lot of use for lithium...Of course that could all change in the future.

surefire makes a battery carrier that hold 6 batteries and has a screw-on O-ring sealed top. the device looks like a revolver cylinder and keeps each individual battery isolated from the others. just throw the case in your day pack and you are good to go.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
surefire makes a battery carrier that hold 6 batteries and has a screw-on O-ring sealed top. the device looks like a revolver cylinder and keeps each individual battery isolated from the others. just throw the case in your day pack and you are good to go.

I've seen that -- I think it holds an extra lamp assembly too? I am just not sure if that counts as they said the exception was for batteries installed in electronic devices.

Time will tell.

I just returned from Zambia a couple of weeks ago and before I left I noticed the restriction on lithium batteries marked on the box from Surefire. I called them and they claimed there was no problem so I hauled two factory boxes of batteries over in my checked luggage - as well as a few spares and two flashlights in my carry-on with no problems. Maybe I was just lucky.

Thanks for the info. The story I saw said the new restrictions will go into effect on January 1, so I guess we will see what they do.

pretty soon we'll all have to fly naked withoug baggage

As I understand the new ruling, lithium batteries can be kept in zip-loc bags in carry-on luggage.

I won't leave for Namibia until early March so I should have plenty of opportunity to watch the rest of you go through the agony or the ectasy of taking lithium batteries on flights. If it proves to be too much trouble I'll just go back to using my old cameras and electronics that use rechargeable AA batteries.

Namibiahunter

quote:

Originally posted by namibiahunter:
As I understand the new ruling, lithium batteries can be kept in zip-loc bags in carry-on luggage.

I won't leave for Namibia until early March so I should have plenty of opportunity to watch the rest of you go through the agony or the ectasy of taking lithium batteries on flights. If it proves to be too much trouble I'll just go back to using my old cameras and electronics that use rechargeable AA batteries.

Namibiahunter

This is why I think there is an issue:

quote:

Passengers can still check baggage with lithium batteries if they are installed in electronic devices, such as cameras, cell phones and laptop computers. If packed in plastic bags, batteries may be in carryon baggage. The limit is two batteries per passenger.

So what if I have a camcorder/camera with an installed detachable lithium rechargeable battery, and a back up battery? Can I still carry them in my carryon? Or would I have to pack the spare in my checked bag?

Not to mention the Surefire and the CR-123 batteries.

[URL= www.TSA.gov]From www.TSA.gov[/URL]

The attached is still not clear on batteries in their original packaging.

But it appears that Surefires using the cr-123 batteries will be a poor choice to take. As will the AA Lithium Camera batteries.

However the press release does reference; "extended-life spare rechargeable lithium batteries" - which the cr123 and AA Lithiums are not - so...? It's up to the TSA agent?

I'll be shopping for AA flashlight/lantern options at the SHOT Show for sure!

Les


PHMSA 11-07

Friday, December 28, 2007

Contact: Patricia Klinger or Joe Delcambre
Tel.: (202) 366-4831

New US DOT Hazmat Safety Rule to Place Lithium Battery Limits in Carry-on Baggage on Passenger Aircraft Effective January 1, 2008

Passengers will no longer be able to pack loose lithium batteries in checked luggage beginning January 1, 2008 once new federal safety rules take effect. The new regulation, designed to reduce the risk of lithium battery fires, will continue to allow lithium batteries in checked baggage if they are installed in electronic devices, or in carry-on baggage if stored in plastic bags.

Common consumer electronics such as travel cameras, cell phones, and most laptop computers are still allowed in carry-on and checked luggage. However, the rule limits individuals to bringing only two extended-life spare rechargeable lithium batteries (see attached illustration), such as laptop and professional audio/video/camera equipment lithium batteries in carry-on baggage.

"Doing something as simple as keeping a spare battery in its original retail packaging or a plastic zip-lock bag will prevent unintentional short-circuiting and fires," said Krista Edwards, Deputy Administrator of the U.S. Department of Transportation's Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration.

Lithium batteries are considered hazardous materials because they can overheat and ignite in certain conditions. Safety testing conducted by the FAA found that current aircraft cargo fire suppression system would not be capable of suppressing a fire if a shipment of non-rechargeable lithium batteries were ignited in flight.

"This rule protects the passenger," said Lynne Osmus, Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) assistant administrator for security and hazardous materials. "It's one more step for safety. It's the right thing to do and the right time to do it."

In addition to the new rule, PHMSA is working with the FAA, the National Transportation Safety Board, the Consumer Product Safety Commission, the battery and airline industries, airline employee organizations, testing laboratories, and the emergency response communities to increase public awareness about battery-related risks and developments. These useful safety tips are highlighted at the public website: http://safetravel.dot.gov.[URL= www.TSA.gov]

I reckon this is the answer - http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/prrfn...0/SC2-Spares-Carrier

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I reckon this is the answer - http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/prrfn...0/SC2-Spares-Carrier

That was mentioned earlier, but does not clearly satisfy the new requirements.

The spare rechargeable long life will help with my Nikon, although I like to carry extra regular batteries as well, but the Surefire is still an open issue...

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
pretty soon we'll all have to fly naked withoug baggage

My thoughts exactly.

I think it will. The idea is to prevent fires caused by the batteries short circuiting by touching each other or another conductor. The plastic carriers keep each battery away from every other battery. - If you put these in the carry on, you'll not only be meeting the requirements, you'll be exceeding them. All they ask is that the batteries be kept either in the manufacturers packaging or in a plastic bag....... In other words, no battery can come into contact with anything that can cause a short circuit and thereby cause a fire.

If you want to be doubly sure, you could always put the plastic containers into a plastic ziplock bag. The requirement says 'or in carry-on baggage if stored in plastic bags' - Then if they're stupid enough to argue, just tip the batteries out of the Surefire container and into the plastic bag.

Effectively, it's just a revised rule from the carriage of dangerous goods act that has always applied to transport of any dry cell batteries on any aircraft on an international flight. All they want to do is prevent anything on board the aircraft that can cause a fire. - This requirement has always been there, but they started to enforce it more rigorously after a Valuejet plane caught fire in flight and crashed in the late 90s. The investigation proved that some oxygen generators had been loaded onto the aircraft without being de-activated. They started to produce oxygen in mid flight that started a severe fire causing the crash and consequent loss of all lives.

My reading of the press release says they are okay if installed in electronic devices (which the Surefire storage container is not) or up to two in original packaging or a plastic bag. I agree that it should meet the purpose but does not appear to meet the letter.

These days you never know if the guy inspecting your bags has read the same letter of the rules as you, so maybe it is moot.

As I read it, the requirement is for no loose lithium batteries in checked baggage, however, they may be installed in electronic devises and then carried in checked baggage. - But of course, this creates opportunity for theft.

They may also be inserted into electronic devices and carried as cabin baggage, plus what appears to be two additional rechargeable batteries, (such as are used for laptop computers).

Having re-read it and having consulted (ain't Skype a wonderful thing!) a few of my ex colleagues who are still working in aviation, I get the impression they're a lot more concerned with the larger batteries for laptops etc than they are with smaller Surefire type batteries. I'd say that if you store the Surefire batteries in those plastic containers as supplied by Surefire AND carry any spare laptop batteries in plastic bags, you'll be fine.

The good news/bad news is that I will not be able to test it for a couple of years so it will be sorted by the time I (hopefully) return again.

Thanks for checking it out.

By then, as someone suggested, you'll probably have to travel naked and also probably without baggage...... maybe I should open a business where the hunter pre-orders all his kit, cameras, gps & clothes etc and we deliver it all to him at the airport when he arrives.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
By then, as someone suggested, you'll probably have to travel naked and also probably without baggage...... maybe I should open a business where the hunter pre-orders all his kit, cameras, gps & clothes etc and we deliver it all to him at the airport when he arrives.

Isn't that what they did when you got off the steamship in the old days in East Africa?

Where there's a will there's a way. So long as the cash holds out!

Yup, that's just what they used to do...... It'd certainly make it a lot easier on excess baggage if the hunter could pick up their hunting clothes etc on arrival and then just give it away to the staff at the end of the hunt. I reckon the clothes would be a lot cheaper than the excess baggage.

May just have to buy or take a few extra cheap flashlights (like the ones I get at dealextreme) and simply use them as "carriers" for the batteries that my Surefire G2 will use. Gets around the problem nicely.

This is the best summary I have seen thus far, and it is pretty sortta clear what is/is not allowed:

http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html

One could always take a smaller Surefire + an M6 which "holds" 6 batteries!

I think it is the laptop batteries which are really the cause of this, some of which have been linked to fires in the past. It will be interesting to hear how hard this is enforced when it comes to phone, digital camera, video camera and other small Lithium Ion batteries.

Unrelated....note the blurb about "home-made" ammunition at http://safetravel.dot.gov/index_ammunition.html

quote:

You can also bring up to two spare batteries with an aggregate equivalent lithium content of up to 25 grams, in addition to any batteries that fall below the 8-gram threshold . Examples of two types of lithium ion batteries with equivalent lithium content over 8 grams but below 25 are shown below.

[Emphasis added.]

Great link Bill.

I think I have about beaten this into the ground, but I am still confused. If the little Surefire batteries are below the 8-gram threshold, does this mean we can take all we want??? Of course, I have no idea where they fall in the "lithium equivalent" continuum...

Hey Charles, MY intrepretation of this, is that (a) spare LI batteries are not allowed in checked luggage, but can be in a device providing it is less then 8 grams, although they prefer not, (b) spare LI batteries up to 8 grams are permitted in carry-on with no limit on quantity providing they are packaged per the guidelines, and (c) that up to two spare LI between 8-25 grams [total] are allowed in the carry-on.

There is another way this could be intrepreted though...(the installed battery is 8 grams or less, and the two spares up to 25 grams).

Most of the material I read seemed to indicate the cap on spare batteries to be two total, but it is possible this was taken out of context.

It may come down to ones luck of TSA agent draws.

Thanks for the response. I agree with your interpretation, and share the concern about the other reports and the actual agent checking our luggage. Time will tell I suppose. In any event, it will not stop any of us from going.

In the name of overkill, here is one more story that apears to confirm Bill C's analysis above.

What will I panic about now???

Would somebody please take the point and try to get through the TSA ambush with a bunch of lithium batteries in separate ziploc bags in your carry-ons?

We'll be waiting for your report.

Namibiahunter

does anyone have any idea of the lithium content of the surefire brand of 3 volt lith. batteries? i am sitting here looking at a box and there is nothing on the box or individual battery about lithium content, watt/hrs or anything else. i foresee some new package labeling in the near future

Loose lips, loose canons, loose women, and now loose lithium? Somebody's gotta screw loose.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
does anyone have any idea of the lithium content of the surefire brand of 3 volt lith. batteries? i am sitting here looking at a box and there is nothing on the box or individual battery about lithium content, watt/hrs or anything else. i foresee some new package labeling in the near future

...and oddly nothing on the surefire.com website either regarding the new regulations or the battery specifications.

However, I suspect they are fine, as the NightOps 3-volt CR123A lithium batteries - which are functional replacements for the SF123A - provide 1550mAh. 3v x 1550 mAh = 4650 / 1000 = 4.65 watt-hours. Per the article Charles linked to above, an 8-gram battery equals about 100 watt-hours of power.

4.65 is a lot less then 100, which means that if the article is correct, we can bring as many SF123A's as we want providing they are on our CARRY-ON and to make the TSA agent happy, carried per their best-practices guidelines at: http://safetravel.dot.gov/tips.html

If I were to fly in the next few weeks, I'd take printed copies of the articles above with the "math" worked out. As you said, one would reasonably expect Surefire to publish something.

So all the PH's with Surefire's can breath a sigh of relief!!!

Story by Joe Sharkey in the business section of today's (8Jan) NYTimes that illustrates the uncertainties while suggesting that smaller lithiums will not (eventually) be a problem to take along. Regards
-------------------------------------------------------

On the Road
More Caveats Than Clarity in Batteries-in-Baggage Rule
By JOE SHARKEY
Published: January 8, 2008
LAST week, I spent most of an afternoon trying to get a cogent explanation of a confusing news release issued late on the Friday before New Year’s by a mouthful of an agency called the United States Department of Transportation Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration.

I will spare you the tortured language, but the statement seemed to say (and was, in fact, widely reported as saying in alarmed news accounts) that a rule taking effect on New Year’s Day at airport checkpoints would prohibit travelers from taking spare lithium batteries on planes.

Since lithium batteries power cellphones, laptops and other electronic devices, the rule seemed to have sudden impact on a lot of travelers who carry spare batteries.

The day before New Year’s, I called Patricia Klinger, a spokeswoman for the agency. Was I about to be busted at security because I carry a spare cellphone battery?

No, she said. The news release, she conceded, was not adequately clear. The short answer, by the way, is that the ban affects industrial-size batteries, including some used by professional audio-visual crews, because they can pose a significant fire hazard. Except for asking people not to pack any loose lithium batteries in checked bags, the rule really does not affect consumer electronics.

“I’m going to reissue the press release,†she said. “We need to clarify that the limit of spare batteries in luggage only applies to the larger batteries that are in the range of 8 grams to 25 grams of lithium content.â€

Fine, I said, but I added that the next day, when the rule was suddenly going to take effect, an awful lot of people were going to be confused, most likely including Transportation Security Administration screeners for whom measuring the lithium grams in a battery would be just one more brick on the load.

So the screeners will know we can bring spare lithium batteries?

“As long as it’s in the camera or whatever, or it’s packed in a Baggie or something like that,†she said.

Now, I am no security expert, but “something like that†struck me as a pretty vaguely defined rule. Ms. Klinger sounded like a nice person and I assured her that I was not trying to give her a hard time but that I thought it would be nice if travelers knew exactly what they could or could not bring.

“So I can bring a laptop, a cellphone with lithium batteries, plus two spare batteries?â€

“Yes.â€

“And the spares need to be packed in separate Baggies?â€

“I don’t know if they need to be in separate Ziplocs. They should be. The whole point is we don’t want loose batteries rubbing up against anything that could cause some sort of spark.â€

“Will the T.S.A. know what it is you can and cannot do? Or are they going to apply the law haphazardly?â€

“I don’t know. They are aware of it. When the rule making was announced last August, they were part of the team that helped develop it.â€

“Why would you announce this right before a holiday?†I asked.

“We issued the rule in August,†she said. “This is just a reminder to let people know there’s an effective date. It was just meant to be a safe-travel tip — that’s exactly what it was meant to be.â€

A safety tip? Not a rule?

Yes, Ms. Klinger said. Then Ms. Klinger said she would go get a technical expert, Bob Richard, the agency’s deputy associate administrator for hazardous material safety, who worked on the rule/safety tip.

This is what Mr. Richard told me: “Let me make it absolutely clear: the majority of batteries and spare batteries that are used for consumer purposes, such as cellphones, laptops, iPods and MP3 players are less than 100 watts and there is no limit on the number of spares you can carry in carry-on luggage.â€

So, I asked, do you anticipate that at some point checking the lithium content of batteries will be part of the security process?

“No,†he said.

Um, I guess that is clear. Meanwhile, I would love to hear from anybody who has had a lithium battery adventure at airport security.

E-mail: jsharkey@nytimes.com

Tim,

Clear as mud...

-Steve