quote:

Originally posted by heym470ne:
I think Pyrodex and perhaps some of the other BP substitutes are classified as "flammable solids" rather than exlosive. If this is the case, then rounds loaded with them could be handled same as rounds loaded with smokless powder with regard to air travel.

The rating will be on the container but I think you'll find all BP & BP substitutes are rated as explosive..... but I'm sure some muzzleloaders can check that fairly easily.

Western Powders - Backhorn 209 (which I think is by far the best powder out there) is only listed as flammable. No where on the container does it have the explosive labeling - just FLAMMABLE...

Tim,

I assume you're talking about the manufacturers container?

In which case, it would probably have a rating of some sort on it..... Usually/often that will be a UN rating and/or something like Class, Division, Rating and/or Group where one may have to look the code up to check it's classification.

As said before, what it boils down to is if it's classified as flammable, it can travel under certain conditions, if it's classified as explosive, it cannot.

In the good old days the rating always had to be marked on each and every container as 'explosive 1.1' or whatever but I get an idea now that they can just put a cose on it that you then have to look up....... which IMO is just needlessly complicating the issues.

Once again, it is irrelavent what the classification of the propellant for transportation purposes is. ALL propellants are illegal for transportation in bulk, regardless of whether the propellant is black powder, Pyrodex, H4831, or Diamond Match heads.

Once the propellant is packaged into "small arms ammunition" it is reclassified and excepted from the transportation ban so long as the total weight of propellant, bullet, case, and primer does not exceed 11 pounds per passenger. Unfortunately, "small arms ammunition" is not defined in the regulations, allowing authorities to interpret what is meant by "small arms ammunition" in various manners.

In the instance of Mr. Moesser, who quite clearly first attempted to illegally take bulk propellant and primers on a plane, then once those were confiscated, lied about having bulk propellant stored inside otherwise empty and inert shotgun shells, the authorities opted not to classify those inert shotgun shells (which were unprimed and contained no projectile) as "small arms ammunition". I think any reasonable person would have to agree that an empty shell without a primer or projectile would not, whatever the definition, be considered "small arms ammunition", thus Mr. Moesser is probably up a creek.

Unless and until the regulations, or a court, define "small arms ammunition", it will remain unclear which ammunition qualifies for the exception and which does not.

ANy of you guys know if 209 shotgun primers are available in gun shops in WIndhoek? Just the regular ones that you use for reloading shotgun shells? That is what ignites my muzzleloader, and I know you cannot travel with them. I got word today that the powder company has my powder t be delivered to a licensed store in Windhoek this Friday, but I will need some primers. I guess worst case scenario, I can buy 12 ga shells and remove the primers, but it would sure be a lot easier if you can buy 100.

Tim,

Can't you just contact the shop in Windhoek that has your powder and ask them to ensure they have whatever you need in stock and ready for you to collect it all?

I have an email in to them Steve, but wanted to know if maybe others might have them if my place does not. I should have thought of this earlier !

Tim,

I don't know how much time you have but if there's sufficient, PM me the relevent details and I'll call them and chase them up for you..... as you probably know, internet connections can sometimes be a tad patchy out here.

If they don't have any, I'll try to phone round and make a plan for you.

Appreciate it Steve. I have my PH and Roger Coomber looking into it for me as well. I will be over there early next week. I just can't imagine that out of the few gun stores in Windhoek, someone doesn't have 12 ga primers. I appreciate your willingness to help...

Tim,

No worries mate. I'm always happy to help a fellow hunter when I can.....

Just updating on this issue: how do we feel for example about the new Kynock BPE ammunition, are those OK for transport in airplanes?

And, I am not 100% on what the consensus was on already loaded rounds with BlackPowder (for BOE doubles)? What are those hunting africa doing with this - only using NFB rounds?

Since one of the previous posters asked about Windhoek (Namibia), here is what I've extracted from the Namibian regulations.

Black powder long guns are permitted for hunting, BUT:
- You cannot transport any black powder or black powder substitutes on any commercial aircraft.
- Black powder substitutes are available in Windhoek but you are not allowed to buy it. It will have to be purchased by your PH when you arrive in Namibia. He will have to apply for a permit BEFORE you arrive. You will have to provide him with:
- Your full name
- The quantity of black powder or substitute wanted – cannot exceed 1kg (2.2 lbs)
- Make and serial number of the rifle(s)
- Dates of arrival and departure from Namibia
- Copy of your passport and firearms license (The “firearms license” is your U.S. Customs Form 4457)
- It is illegal to use “smokeless” powder in muzzle-loaded firearms
- The same minimum caliber and muzzle energies apply to muzzle loaded firearms.

quote:

Originally posted by Orvar:
Just updating on this issue: how do we feel for example about the new Kynock BPE ammunition, are those OK for transport in airplanes?

And, I am not 100% on what the consensus was on already loaded rounds with BlackPowder (for BOE doubles)? What are those hunting africa doing with this - only using NFB rounds?

All you have to do is look on the tin/box.

If the classification label says Explosive (of any kind) then it cannot travel under any circumstances whatsoever and if it says Flammable, then it can travel under certain circumstances.

I can't remember which references etc I've previously posted on this so will post or repost the most pertinent in full:

Air Travel with Black Powder is Absolutely Prohibited: What You Need to Know
Air Travel with Black Powder is Absolutely Prohibited: What You Need to Know

Black powder is a Class 1.10, Packing Group II, number UN0027 “Explosive”. Air travel with black powder in your checked luggage is prohibited. Carriage on a plane is not one single offense. Rather, it constitutes multiple offenses and subjects the sportsman to multiple separate civil penalties (15 to be exact) that can each be substantial. The following is a partial quote from a Notice of Proposed Civil Penalty received by a hunter when his luggage was found to contain one container of Jim Shockey’s Gold Premium Grade Black Powder Replacement:

By reason of the above, you violated the following Department of Transportation Hazardous Materials Regulations (Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations):

1. Section 171.2(a) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation in commerce when the hazardous material was not properly classed, described, packaged, marked, labeled, and in condition for shipment as required or authorized by applicable requirements of this subchapter.

2. Sections 172.200(a) and 172.202(a)(1) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the proper shipping name prescribed for the material in Column 2 of the § 172.101 Table, in the manner required by this subpart.

3. Sections 172.200(a) and 172.202(a)(2) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the hazard class or division prescribed for the material as shown in Column 3 of the § 172.101 Table, in the manner required by this subpart.

4. Sections 172.200(a) and Section 172.202(a)(3) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the identification number prescribed for the material as shown in Column 4 of the § 172.101 Table, in the manner required by this subpart.

5. Sections 172.200(a) and Section 172.202(a)(4) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the packing grouping, in Roman numerals, prescribed for the material in Column 5 of the § 172.101 Table, if any, of the material covered by the description, in the manner required by this subpart.

6. Sections 172.200(a) and Section 172.202(a)(5) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the total quantity (by net or gross mass, capacity, or as otherwise appropriate), including the unit of measurement, of the hazardous material covered by the description, in the manner required by this subpart.

7. Sections 172.204(a) or (c)(1) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to certify that the material was offered for transportation in accordance with this subchapter by printing on the shipping paper containing the required shipping description one of the certifications set forth in this part.

8. Section 172.204(c)(2) in that you offered a hazardous material to an aircraft operator for transportation by air and failed to provide two copies of the certification required in this section.

9. Section 172.204(c)(3) in that you offered for transportation by air a hazardous material authorized for air transportation and failed to add the certification required in this section the following statement:

“I declare that all of the applicable air transport requirements have been met.”

10. Section 172.301(a) in that you offered for transportation a hazardous material in a non-bulk packaging and failed to mark the package with the proper shipping name and identification number (preceded by “UN” or “NA”, as appropriate) for the material as shown in the § 172.101 Table.

11. Section 172.400(a) in that you offered for transportation a hazardous material in one of the packages or containment devices listed in this subpart and failed to label the package or containment device with the labels specified for the material in the § 172.101 Table and in this subpart.

12. Section 172.600(c) in that you offered for transportation a hazardous material and failed to make the emergency response information immediately available for use at all times the hazardous material was present, and failed to make such information, including an emergency response telephone number, immediately available to any government agency responding to an incident involving hazardous material or conducting an investigation which involves a hazardous material.

13. Section 172.21(a) in that you offered for transportation materials designated “Forbidden” in Column 3 of the § 172.101 Table.

14. Section 173.21(b) in that you offered for transportation forbidden explosives as defined in § 173.54 of this part.

15. Section 173.54(a) in that you offered for transportation an explosive that had not been approved in accordance with § 173.56 of this subpart.

In accordance with Section 5123(a) of Chapter 51, Title 49 of the United States Code of Transportation, 49 U.S.C§ 5123, [name of violator] is liable for a civil penalty of not less than $250, nor greater than $50,000 ($100,000 if death, serious illness, severe injury, or substantial property damage results), for each violation of the regulations.
John J. Jackson, III
Conservation Force - A Force For Wildlife Conservation, Wild Places And Our Way Of Life
cf@conservationforce.org
www.conservationforce.org
http://www.phmsa.dot.gov/porta...RCRD&vgnextfmt=print

PHMSA Interpretation #01-0216
Oct 15, 2001
PHMSA Response Letter
________________________________________
October 15, 2001

Mr. XXXXXXXXXXXXX Reference No. 01-0216
XXXXXXX
xxxx
xxxx
USA
Dear Mr. XXXXXX:
This responds to your letter dated August 7, 2001, regarding the transportation of black powder under the U.S. Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR; 49 CFR Parts 171-180) and the International Civil Aviation Organization's Technical Instructions for the Safe Transport of Dangerous Goods by Air (ICAO Technical Instructions). Specifically, you ask if there are any exceptions that would allow for the domestic or international transportation of black powder by aircraft.
The answer is no. The air transportation of black powder is forbidden both domestically under the HMR and internationally under the ICAO Technical Instructions. Putting the black powder into either a shotgun case or brass rifle case, as you describe in your letter, and carrying it onto an aircraft, would be a willful violation of the regulations. .
I trust this satisfies your inquiry. Please contact us if we can be of further assistance.
Sincerely,

Edward T. Mazzullo
Director
Office of Hazardous Materials Standards
173.22

If anyone needs to contact Mr Mazzullo I think they can get his email address from www.zoominfo.com

OK, we'll that's super clear - don't do it!

How are people then shooting these inAfrica?

They can buy locally. It might not always be the identical product but it will be very similar.

I have incidentally emailed Kynoch to ask what classification their propellant is & will post their reply if they come back to me.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
They can buy locally. It might not always be the identical product but it will be very similar.

It is transported in a "drone."

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:
It is transported in a "drone."

Does a drone qualify to carry hazmat?

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:
It is transported in a "drone."

Does a drone qualify to carry hazmat?

No air crew, and no cabin staff!

Ah but still an aircraft.

Hazmat is usually restricted to surface transport only but of course those rockets they put on the drones ain't exactly non hazardous are they?

There is so much fail in this but I shall try and clear up. All hazardous material is controlled by a universal program through the UN for shipping. It may be called hazmat, TDG etc, but the rules are universal to the world. When you ship dangerous goods in any quantity by rail, ground, ship or air you should be trained on how they are to be shipped. Firstly, Black powder and Smokeless powder are both classified as explosives. FWIW there are 6 groups of hazmat material that all substances fit in.

Black Powder is UN 0027, 1.1D pkg group II, forbidden in any quantity on aircraft regardless, passenger or cargo
Cartridges, small arms is UN 0012, 1.4S, pkg group II, 25 kg allowed on passenger aircraft, 100 kg allowed on Cargo aircraft.

Now that 25 kg is total allowed in aircraft and not per person. So when you check in and declare your firearms and someone else declares their firearms, etc the max can only be 25 kg for the aircraft. Theoretically if 6 guys were flying on an airplane and each had 5 kg limit of ammo they would have to offload one set of ammo to be legal even though we all know that the weight includes brass and bullets etc.

What can happen when you put the wrong things in a cargo compartment, think Valuejet Flight 592.

if you wish to check what I have shown above there is a handy website at Hazardous materials shipping

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
So am I to understand if I have a say 577 BPE hammered double I can't bring it to Africa with loaded ammo and that I must find these rounds in Africa?

If you want to take your muzzle loader to Africa, ask your outfitter to get the powder over on that side. You will need to bring the essentials from your reloading kit, and load your ammo there. Keep in mind that our powders don't burn as clean as what you are use to , you will need to re-check your rifle over on this side. You should be able to get something like WANO, which I guess will do the job. Your outfitter will need a permit to keep the blackpowder. I just apply for the necessary permits which are good for a year, buy the powder and primers on this side, and my hunters are good to go.

Canuck

You might like to read my previous posts and links.

Most, if not all smokeless powders are classified as flammable whereas BP & BP substitutes are classified as explosive.

The former is permitted to be carried on commercial passenger aircraft under certain restrictions and the latter is not permitted to be carried on commercial passenger aircraft under any circumstances.

All you have to do to check that is look at the label on any tin of smokeless powder, black powder or BP substitute and you'll see a label on it with the UN rating. It will read flammable or explosive etc.

Steve, any news from Kynamcho?

Cheers!

Nothing at all I'm afraid.

Which to me at least suggests a shocking attitude to safety.

Perhaps someone else will have better luck if they also ask.